Broken Realms: Kragnos - SPOILER Discussion + Lore Summary

[Baron Klatz]

3 hours ago, HorticulusTGA said:

time during the Realmgate Wars and the end of the Soul Wars (so including the Season Of War and the Time Of Tribulation) was like 100-150 years

That works, the sources about the specific times jump all over the place from the Realmgate Wars being anywhere from 100 to even 600 years and the Duardin in the White Dwarf stories commenting it's been a little over a century since the Necroquake. So decreasing the span by 50-100 years(or at least in Ghur) or so doesn't hurt things going from around 300 years to 200 years since RGW with a century per major campaign.  (indeed, it justifies why Excelsis was in such a bad shape with so many events happening to it in a century.)

But that all fits with how the realms officially work. When you're in realms so vast that some people have to tell time with the light realm cycles while others on the same mega continent have to use ghur suns that randomly fly through the skies like beasts (nevermind lands in Shyish still timelocked in the Age of Chaos) the time scope can be all over the place.

That's why Age of Sigmar measures things in ages for it's timelines. Just that good ol' nebulous vastness of the Mortal Realms.

3 hours ago, HorticulusTGA said:

so no big time skip here either. 

Yeah I should've said "a bit of" a timeskip since 3.0 is opening up with full Kragnos worship spread and the chaos storm finally stretched itself thin over the realms compared to how realms like Ghur weren't even touched yet and had clean grey skies.

At the very least a few decades unless they decide to go bigger(it'd be fun to see if the side effects of the life flood is longer lived humans. Upping the average person to 200 years would be a interesting alternative to Soulbound)

3 hours ago, Envyus said:

Feel you guys are forgetting that Kragnos is near immune to magic. Which is why Kroak could not do as much.

 Yeah, his shield has insane anti-magic properties. Certainly explains why Kroak didn't just drop meteors on him like he did to disintegrate the orruks flooding the outer city ways.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[KingBrodd]

I really enjoyed BR Kragnos!! I think that Belakor was the best of the series, even with Kragnos having Mega Gargants getting stuff done!! I loved the Mancrushers pulling the Battering ram, Mega Gargants shattering walls and a Stomp of Kraken Eaters emerging from the harbour was chefs kiss!! 

My only gripe was the Mawtribes were barely present, basically a few dozen Mercenary Gluttons were what appeared for them.

All in all a fantastic series and I cannot wait for 3.0 now.

AND GRUNGNI IS BACK BRING ON NEW DUARDIN!!

[Turgol]

If you haven't, I really suggest that you read BR: Kragnos. IMO, it is by far the best narrative in an AoS mainstream book so far. I know the reactions to the summaries have been mixed. But summaries betray the quality of the narrative. BR: Kragnos is mainly narrated from the viewpoint of normal humans in Excelsis. This is so in chapter 1 and 3, which are far longer than chapter 2 (mostly Skragrot point of view). This is far better than all previous books. Teclis takes places mostly from a godly point of view; the lowest it descends is either to Lumineth heroes or Mortarchs. And it feels much less grounded. I would say the same about dimensions travelling narratives in Be'Lakor and Morathi. Here, Excelsis and Ghur really shine from a grounded point of view. 

Chapter 1 is essentially a narrative of inner strife in a city that knows it is marked for likely doom. Although nothing really important happens in it, it is beyond even City of Secrets in achieving that narrative.

And chapter 3 is the story of the siege of Excelsis. I think no siege had been so well done since the fall of Altdorf in End Times. As a battle, it is arguably a more spectacular narrative with the combination of full waagh siege of a massive city, with a fleet attack, and an inner catastrophe taking place at the same time. 

The resolution to the most important parts of the plot may sound lame when written as a summary. Grodrakk joining Kragnos isn't easy to explain - it is hinted that it is the effect of the Bad Moon, but it feels like a deus ex machina. The final victory of Order feels less of a deus ex machina and introduces, yet again, Morathi as a major player.  But anyways, I think any warhammer fan would do himself a favor by reading this book. 

As to the Epilogues, I did not find them as good, except for the now explicit confirmation of Grugni's return and direct involvement and stuff. The Nagash-Teclis exchange is getting old; Be'Lakor - talons of Slaanesh feels irrelevant; Kragnos is just an introduction of the Kruelboyz. But Morathi's "judgment" and Grugni's interruption, though not a great narrative, points nicely to things forward.

Oh, and I remember that when AoS was launched, there was this rumour that Lizardmen were turning to dragonkin. Guess that will very likely happen now. Interesting times!

[shinros]

3 hours ago, Enoby said:

I have really enjoyed the BR lore up to now, but I can't help but be a little upset at the Slaanesh storyline. It felt like they just rushed it, and in turn I think the entire narrative is weaker for it.

To show what I mean:

- Morathi becomes a god but there's a cost - a shard of Slaanesh has broken free

- This shard is so powerful that all of the Hedonites come to see it, and some die simply by looking at it

- The shard splits in two, revealing the two new children of Slaanesh

- The very first thing they do, they fail at, getting killed by two normal mortal witch hunters who weren't even especially prepared for them

It just seems... very poor writing?

 

Yup, after reading Kragnos, the wasted narrative made me use my money for the twins on Vyrkos, decided to embrace vampire grandma instead. 

[Cataphract]

Still laughing my ass off that the Talon and Voice are Malerion’s Half-Siblings.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Since the Necroquake has been ended in BR: Teclis, do we actually know what this entails? Like, is Shyish back to normal, or is everything still in danger of slipping into the Nadir? Also, do we know yet why...

Spoiler

...Hysh does not rise over Shyish at the end of Cursed City?

Edited June 7, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Backbreaker]

I really enjoyed the previous books. But this last one was really disappointing. Basically nothing happen? And most of what was "moving" in the Mortal Realms is now still.

 

And Kragnos... what a lame character. I'm a Destruction player but damn, I understand the emphasis on fighting fighty fights all the time, but he is such a dummy.

[King Under the Mountain]

9 minutes ago, Backbreaker said:

 

 

And Kragnos... what a lame character. I'm a Destruction player but damn, I understand the emphasis on fighting fighty fights all the time, but he is such a dummy.

That's my issue with Destruction as a whole.  They make all the Destruction forces (for the most part) just dumb.  I get the humor in an army like 40ks Orks, where they live to fight but I'd love to see an army or characters for Destruction that uses their intellect to fight.

I know Krulboyz or supposed to be the "clever ones" but I think the will fall into the same trap as other Orcs of being faceless mooks.  

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 minutes ago, King Under the Mountain said:

That's my issue with Destruction as a whole.  They make all the Destruction forces (for the most part) just dumb.  I get the humor in an army like 40ks Orks, where they live to fight but I'd love to see an army or characters for Destruction that uses their intellect to fight.

I know Krulboyz or supposed to be the "clever ones" but I think the will fall into the same trap as other Orcs of being faceless mooks.  

That's just the problem with "force of nature" factions that GW writers still have not figured out how to solve, I guess. How do we make guys who just want to fight for no reason interesting? How do we show them to be anything but dumb brutes? And also, how do we make them meaningfully different from Chaos?

[Beliman]

41 minutes ago, King Under the Mountain said:

That's my issue with Destruction as a whole.

That's my main problem too.

Skragrott seems to be the only one that I have any sympathy for. Maybe I need more interactions, and I'm not talking about SMASH SMASH, but something more. Trades between other societies, mercenary companies or more stories that have interaction with our green dudes/big dudes/bigger dudes (?), awesome and unique feats (without going full Godmode), never-ending wars between other societies (look at Karak Eight Peaks with Skarsnik, Belegar and Queek , that's what I'm talking about), etc...

That kind of stuff

 

[Enoby]

10 hours ago, shinros said:

Yup, after reading Kragnos, the wasted narrative made me use my money for the twins on Vyrkos, decided to embrace vampire grandma instead. 

It's very frustrating because of how easy it would have been to write better, even if the twins had to lose.

For example:

Twins come to Excellis after seeing the wealth of aelf souls and rising tensions in the city, seeing an opportunity to further their father's escape. 

The witch hunters gain insight into daemonic stirrings, and move to investigate. They find the evidence of Slaaneshi happenings and move to stop it, but Synessa (the voice) uses their manipulation skills to lead them astray, giving the twins enough time to break free into the city. 

The witch hunters call whatever people their order can spare to take down this new threat, but their weapons and skills prove ineffective against the Newborn. Dexcessa (the talon) decimates the mortals and the two witch hunters just manage to escape. 

But the hunters know they cannot give up - the destruction outside of the city is closing in, and there is no hope for Excellis if the inside corruption spreads. They devise a plan, but it's a risky one. They know these daemons came for the aelves, and so they round up any and all aelves they can find and imprison them within a cage to act as bait. They speak with Kroak (or someone who can speak with Kroak) about the threat and ask Kroak to plot Kragnos's charge into the city. Obviously the aelves are less than pleased about being imprisoned. The cage is placed where they expect Kragnos to breach, and they hope they can rescue the aelves in the ensuing conflict. The bait works on Dexcessa (who is much more impulsive), and Synessa follows seeing an opportunity to spread their insidious plan. 

Kroak redirects Kragnos, who smashes through the wall as Dexcessa approaches the aelves. The God of Earthquakes sees this Godling challenger and they fight. Synessa uses the opportunity to sow doubt within the minds of the aelves who are being rescued by the witch hunters. 

The twins both put up a fight against Kragnos, but Kroak uses the opportunity to unleash a heavenly volley on both participants. This banishes the twins and redirects Kragnos's attention to Kroak, allowing the city a brief respite against the God and enough time to mount a defence against the Waagh.

---

This makes the witch hunters look cunning and they do, in a roundabout way, win. Kroak is powerful and also wins, though it takes plotting to do so. Kragnos is shown to be very strong and a threat that has to be redirected and attacked by three demigods to even distract. And the twins are shown to be too powerful for mortals to deal with, not unbeatable, but their plan of creating chaos between aelves and humans is actively put into action.

I'm not a professional writer, but I feel this would have left a better taste in some people's mouths and would have been a more equal showing.

[Fairbanks]

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

It's very frustrating because of how easy it would have been to write better, even if the twins had to lose.

For example:

Twins come to Excellis after seeing the wealth of aelf souls and rising tensions in the city, seeing an opportunity to further their father's escape. 

The witch hunters gain insight into daemonic stirrings, and move to investigate. They find the evidence of Slaaneshi happenings and move to stop it, but Synessa (the voice) uses their manipulation skills to lead them astray, giving the twins enough time to break free into the city. 

The witch hunters call whatever people their order can spare to take down this new threat, but their weapons and skills prove ineffective against the Newborn. Dexcessa (the talon) decimates the mortals and the two witch hunters just manage to escape. 

But the hunters know they cannot give up - the destruction outside of the city is closing in, and there is no hope for Excellis if the inside corruption spreads. They devise a plan, but it's a risky one. They know these daemons came for the aelves, and so they round up any and all aelves they can find and imprison them within a cage to act as bait. They speak with Kroak (or someone who can speak with Kroak) about the threat and ask Kroak to plot Kragnos's charge into the city. Obviously the aelves are less than pleased about being imprisoned. The cage is placed where they expect Kragnos to breach, and they hope they can rescue the aelves in the ensuing conflict. The bait works on Dexcessa (who is much more impulsive), and Synessa follows seeing an opportunity to spread their insidious plan. 

Kroak redirects Kragnos, who smashes through the wall as Dexcessa approaches the aelves. The God of Earthquakes sees this Godling challenger and they fight. Synessa uses the opportunity to sow doubt within the minds of the aelves who are being rescued by the witch hunters. 

The twins both put up a fight against Kragnos, but Kroak uses the opportunity to unleash a heavenly volley on both participants. This banishes the twins and redirects Kragnos's attention to Kroak, allowing the city a brief respite against the God and enough time to mount a defence against the Waagh.

---

This makes the witch hunters look cunning and they do, in a roundabout way, win. Kroak is powerful and also wins, though it takes plotting to do so. Kragnos is shown to be very strong and a threat that has to be redirected and attacked by three demigods to even distract. And the twins are shown to be too powerful for mortals to deal with, not unbeatable, but their plan of creating chaos between aelves and humans is actively put into action.

I'm not a professional writer, but I feel this would have left a better taste in some people's mouths and would have been a more equal showing.

Who would win in a fight: The Newborn Spawn of the Literal God of Chaos -or- Some Witch Hunter Bois?

On the one hand, incredibly anticlimactic appearance for the Slaanesh Twins.

On the other, I think BR:Be’lakor and this interaction is what you need to take away: Chaos is relatively grounded in the story now. A whole army of Tzeentch, Khorne, Nurgle, or Slaanesh can’t just walk in and take what they want, they don’t have the plot armor Archaon does and in the end, they could just get wrecked by a God. It’s why Be’lakor, despite having his masterstroke as near complete as it was, stepped back when Grugni showed up. He’s not a god, neither is a Bloodthirster, LoC, GUO, or KoS.

I think there’s a lot to be said about planning as well. Kroak lost a major army in order to take down Eater of Tomes (who had escape plan after escape plan). But could only push Kragnos somewhere else in Ghur (Insert Mystic “He needs him for something bigger” Mumbojumbo for why he didn’t fling him into the void). Meanwhile, Teclis and Nagash didn’t really plan for one another and their armies got flung at the walls and never stuck. Then Nagash showed up and nearly took down Avenlor alone. It took Teclis + His Army to do it.

I surmise the following power scales:

1. Chaos God <- Pantheon God <- Non-God Character <- Army <- Schlebs

2. Full Pantheon Gods <- 4 Chaos Gods + Archaon (+Skaven?) = Pantheon Gods minus Gorkamorka = 1 Pantheon God during their masterstroke (Nagash’s Ritual) <- Pantheon minus Gorkamorka and Nagash <- God/Character Ritual (Sigmar Opening a Chamber, Alarielle’s Song, Be’lakor’s Plots, Morathi’s Ascension to Pantheon God status) <- Chaos God <- Pantheon God

[JustAsPlanned]

5 hours ago, Fairbanks said:

I surmise the following power scales:

1. Chaos God <- Pantheon God <- Non-God Character <- Army <- Schlebs

2. Full Pantheon Gods <- 4 Chaos Gods + Archaon (+Skaven?) = Pantheon Gods minus Gorkamorka = 1 Pantheon God during their masterstroke (Nagash’s Ritual) <- Pantheon minus Gorkamorka and Nagash <- God/Character Ritual (Sigmar Opening a Chamber, Alarielle’s Song, Be’lakor’s Plots, Morathi’s Ascension to Pantheon God status) <- Chaos God <- Pantheon God

This reads like an advanced maths equation, yet it makes so much sense

[Harioch]

I was thinking about this, for those who had read BR Kragnos. Did Kroak really took Dragons' eggs ?

If it's the case, I can really see in the future of Seraphons that Coalescend (those living in the Mortal Realms) will keep the traditional dinosaurs, where the others (the star-seraphon) will became more draconic. All of that in one tome like Orruks Warclans, Mawtribes, etc.

[Marius au]

In the story about Kragnos origins, the Drakes give the last of their eggs to the Slaan (this could be Kroak) in exchange for aid in defeating Kragnos.

[Marius au]

I enjoyed it, but agree that the story would be fine without Kragnos the character.

I don't have a huge issue with the twins defeat as I also see them being new and almost struggling to understand the mortal realms and their limits in it.

[Envyus]

Also a powerful Lord Veritent helped the Witch Hunters against them. 

[Envyus]

Also I enjoyed Kragnos. He's a simple character but preformed his role well. 

[Sigmarusvult]

I have finished reading the book last night. So far the series has been great in my opinion, in particular Bel'akor. Unfortunately BR Kragnos felt rushed and despite of all the built up from the previous books and short stories, the series ended with a classic but underwhelming ending.

One of my greatest issue is that the city of Excelsis has a plot armor thicker than a character from Games of Thrones:

First, there is a civil war brewing between Alves and humans within the city, then Skaven caused a big mayhem, killed and destroyed lots. Not long after (a week or two in the book) the city is attacked by one of the biggest Waaagh! we have seen since the Age of Myth and it is led by a god that genocide... drakes! In the same time the city is also being attack from within by the offspring of... a chaos god !  😬

Wow surely the city is doomed, don't worry ! The good guys still win... because they get reinforcement once the walls and gates were breached 😂 

I know you could argue that it's Morathi and  Kroak who helped, sure but nothing really explain why. Morathi came by sea to save a city she doesn't want to keep while it is said that Kroak doesn't really care if the city falls as long as he can close the realm gates to isolate the Ghur from Azyr. So even if they have no strong reason to be bother to help they still manage to save a city from the worst situation ? Not a great story line imo.

There is also a huge miss opportunity in not having Morathi confronts the consequences of her action in a scene with the twins. Unfortunately the latters died like a small boss in a 3 players mmo instance. 

Finally, Kragnos is another dumb dumb "I destroy stuff because I am angry" guy who simply fell in another trap set by Kroak. He is such a miss opportunity for me, it would have been so refreshing to have someone in destruction who is both smart and strong with an ambitious agenda, sadly this is not Kragnos. 

In conclusion, parts of the story felt they came out of magician hat (Morathi) and I was hoping for something that put the forces of destruction under the light, unfortunately they remain the typical vilains who lost even when all the odds were with them. It is hard to believe that they are going to be the main threat of V3. Overall I was more thrilled by the short dialogue between Teclis and Nagash than by the rest of the book. I am still happy with the Broken Realm series and I look forwards reading the evolution of the lore in V3.

 

 

 

 

 

[HorticulusTGA]

Some explanation on Sigvald and Gluttos' fates in the latest Short Story (still going, then!) : 

@KingBrodd aaandit answers your question in the rumor thread  

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by HorticulusTGA

[Enoby]

7 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Some explanation on Sigvald and Gluttos' fates in the latest Short Story (still going, then!) : 

@KingBrodd aaandit answers your question in the rumor thread  

 

Thanks for sharing - but the link doesn't seem to be working for me

[Carnelian]

On 6/5/2021 at 4:31 PM, Sorrow said:

So, I read the Broken Realms Kragnos and I have mixed feelings on the way Slaaneshi side was handled.

 

  Hide contents

First, they are literal children of Slaanesh, even calling Slaanesh "their father".  So I would assume that they are mighty indeed, but the way the get killed by a family of vampire hunters is just absolutely tragicomic. Also, where are all the Hedonites? In Broken Realms short stories, we are told that Sigvald, Glutos and that named Lord of Pain are all going towards Excelsis? Nobody of them appears. Their final talk with Belakor implies once again some grand Slaaneshi scheme going on, maybe GW will follow on it, maybe not.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/GoOdPej7qcXOKbTT.pdf answers what happened to Sigvald and Glutos!

[Carnelian]

On 6/6/2021 at 11:20 AM, MitGas said:

....IMO the writing quality directly related to battletomes and short stories has declined - I don't read enough of the books but I've been told that some are indeed very well written....

IMO the quality of short stories and battletome lore writing is at an all time high for AoS (can't speak for oldhammer as well but don't see how this can be disputed 2015 onwards).

as you surmise, this goes for the full length fiction too (particularly Richard Strachan's books)

Overall i really enjoyed this whole series.

The only thing missing for me was a map of pre-siege Excelsis. That would have been great.

Reading everyone's comments now, I can see how the Slaanesh stuff was a bit anti-climactic but other than that, I thought the quality of writing was good enough that Gordrak and Kragnos et al came over really well

[Nordrim]

Was there any lore about beasts of chaos?

Just wondering because beasts got box with the book.

[cyrus]

14 hours ago, Nordrim said:

Was there any lore about beasts of chaos?

Just wondering because beasts got box with the book.

I didn't read the book myself but just a review :

Beastmen (sent by Nurgle)  try to stop Alarielle 's ritual of life in Ghyran at the very beginning of the book.

 

Spoiler