What would you like for AoS 3

[EMMachine]

4 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Shoot at red, no penalty. Shoot at anything else, -1 to hit. Anything more fiddly than that is over-complicating the rule, IMO.

I think debuffing shooting through a unit is less complicated than the priority thing.

I have seen stuff in 40k where a complete line of sight blocked unit would still prevent shooting on a character on the open field (because the blocked unit was closer), or that people are arguing that a unit that is 14" away gets the -1 because another unit is a quarter of an inch closer.

In the end the red unit is not screening the orange unit (not in the way it would be intended) but it would screen the blue one.

[whispersofblood]

AoS is by design as light on core rules in-game restrictions as possible. It's an open ruleset, precisely to give players the most options as possible. While retaining some level of believable shared reality. 

I would be more open to adding additional rules, potentially having a positive effect, if players could pile-in correctly.

The only way I can see shooting overall being tamed a bit. (And I'm not even agreeing that shooting is a problem generally.) Is by changing the phase order to Hero Phase; Shooting Phase; Movement Phase, Combat Phase. But, I think GW is fairly wed to the phase orders at this point so it is unlikely. 

[Kadeton]

15 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

I think debuffing shooting through a unit is less complicated than the priority thing.

I have seen stuff in 40k where a complete line of sight blocked unit would still prevent shooting on a character on the open field (because the blocked unit was closer), or that people are arguing that a unit that is 14" away gets the -1 because another unit is a quarter of an inch closer.

In the end the red unit is not screening the orange unit (not in the way it would be intended) but it would screen the blue one.

Neither of us are GW rules writers, so the specifics of our preferred implementations don't really matter. But a target priority rule of some kind, designed to curb the freedom of targeting enjoyed by shooting units when compared to melee units, is definitely something I would like to see for AoS3.

[zilberfrid]

12 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

AoS is by design as light on core rules in-game restrictions as possible. It's an open ruleset, precisely to give players the most options as possible. While retaining some level of believable shared reality. 

I would be more open to adding additional rules, potentially having a positive effect, if players could pile-in correctly.

The only way I can see shooting overall being tamed a bit. (And I'm not even agreeing that shooting is a problem generally.) Is by changing the phase order to Hero Phase; Shooting Phase; Movement Phase, Combat Phase. But, I think GW is fairly wed to the phase orders at this point so it is unlikely. 

I think changing that order is a very original idea. I really like it.

[Liquidsteel]

I'd like to see:

Deploying first should not give you the choice of first or second turn, it should be a simple roll off or at best, allow you to decide ties.

Double turn is neither here nor there, it's an interesting mechanic.

Battleshock and Bravery reworked or tweaked. Too many newer armies have ways to avoid or mitigate it.

Heavy reduction in the amount of Mortal Wounds being dished out at range. Magic and certain units like a Warp Lightning Cannon should keep them, keep regular damage for normal guns/arrows.

Give characters/heroes greater defence to ranged MW. Look out sir -1 hit is useless against things like Kroak and Vanari Sentinels.

 

[Samukai]

Three pretty simple changes that i would like to see:

More reasons to choose named heroes as generals. Sometimes there is a strong incentive such as Katakros in Bonereapers, he generates 3 extra RDP if he is the general. We need more stuff like this.

Heroes are harder to snipe. Either something to increase survivability at range or make them harder to target, a lot of room here to find something.

Initiative is not random. I like the double turn, i like the swing it can bring to games but there is room here for a more strategic element to be introduced especially for the 1st turn. The player with the smaller army (by points) gets to decide first player? You could effectively bet points to try and get the initiative instead of trying to get as close to 2000 as possible.

[Gistradagis]

My 50 cents on a few things, particularly stuff most people are bringing up:

• First turn choice stays the same. Mostly because it is a layer of strategy that begins at list-building. Making your list as tight as possible in drops should bring an advantage, and knowing you'll choose who goes first and second is a great addition, as it's not a gross advantage due to both players knowing this beforehand and deploying their army with this in mind (it's not like 40k, where a bad deployment can straight up lose the game due to the "who goes first" roll). It doesn't make much sense to me to try and get rid of what little strategy AoS has pre-game.
• Double turns should be gone. There's just no good reason whatsoever for them to exist, as they add little to no value. I agree that the first change of rounds (from 1st to 2nd) does have some strategy to it. If you have the lowest drops and choose to go first, you have an inherent advantage of taking positions on no man's land or to attempt to sabotage the rival, but risk getting double-turned by your opponent. From that point onward, however, there's no real way to properly plan for the opponent getting a double turn or counter it, and in almost every single game when it happens in rounds 2, 3 or 4, it's a huge "feels bad" moment that ends a game then and there very anticlimactically. Once in a  very loooooong while, it creates some interesting tension as the losing player gets a miraculous chance for a comeback, yes, but the vast majority of double-turns simply give one player an unjust advantage with a single die roll, due to the one-sided nature of turns, outside of the Combat Phase. Conversely, if GW is just SO married to the idea of double-turns they want to keep an element that I've so often seen turn away new people from AoS, we'd need radical changes to turn order and activation. As it is right now, double turns are a terrible mechanic that make the game much poorer.
• Curb shooting (slightly). Some people are bringing really radical changes, but I feel we simply need to make it so it's less "free value" at no cost. Right now the only real limitations is that you're forced to shoot at a unit you're in combat with, and that hero-sniping is slightly difficult with the -1 of Look Out Sir. Both are really flawed, as the first isn't a true limitation (ironically the shooting unit technically becomes stronger, as it now still shoots, and also participates in combat), and the second has become less and less relevant with some much "unmodified 6 = MWs." I would either ramp up the difficulty on hero-sniping, making it -2 for example and/or putting limits in place of how much damage you can do, giving the hero a special cover automatically (so +1 to save for being within 3" of an allied unit, potentially added to an extra +1 for normal cover) or such. The shooting into combat is also easily restrained, by making that shooting still possible (so as to not making shooting units almost useless once touched) but inefficient (-1 to hit, for example, or even better, -1 to wound due to the lack of distance taking away the bite of a good ranged shot).
• Changes to scoring. Missions in AoS are just too simplistic and straight-forward, which in part adds to the problems we have in the meta. Certain armies just play an objectives-based game extremely well, almost unfairly so, while other armies are practically engineered to fail at this and only know how to fight/skirmish/alpha-strike. Make secondaries play a real role and score more, and lessen the impact of controlling the primary objectives that decides so many games on turn 1/2 with armies that take the board's centre or engage your army in your own deployment zone.
• Change Monsters (slightly). Put simply, monsters tend to be really inefficient units unless they have good support abilities (or are one-man army heroes). They need a system in place to make them impactful by being more difficult to take them out (inherent reduction to damage, for example, or, if we were to dream bigger, some semblance of what we used to have with Strength and Toughness). Everything else (counting as more models than 1, good damage) already exists in some shape or form already and is merely warscroll-dependant.

I'd add a rework to Battleshock, but I don't really have any particular ideas right now, so can't really bring much to the table there.

Edit: As a small addendum, Samukai has reminded me of something else. I wish every single army had a faction ability in their book to reward making a named hero your General, much like Skragrott does for Gloomspite, for example.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Gistradagis

[zilberfrid]

For priority to stay the same, a big change in battalions is required.

Cities (for instance) as a choice of 1 per city (so never more choice than 1). They are very prescriptive, not something like Changehost.

[Ragest]

I’m not a game dev and i won’t be, but i can’t get why they decided shooting, that should be played with tactical moves and good positioning, is rewarded with low drop counts (changehost, KO’s battallions, auralan legion, shootcast) and movement related abilites (khailebron free tp, dr with chameleons and vanguard, free tps with starborne, fly high)

I mean, that’s the opposite to balancing, you just can’t surround melee armies with a ton of penalties (screens, charges, alternate activations) and shooting is just mostly autoplay in most cases.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Ragest

[Televiper11]

Wishlisting:

• More useful battalions for CoS and new cities
• New plastics for Seraphon, Skaven, Beasts Of Chaos
• Chaos Undivided for StD w/Belakor (in plastic) as General option
• Updated Gloomspite tome that integrates the new White Dwarf rules
• Duardin United Battletome that includes Dispossessed
• Beasts Of Chaos new tome including the god-marked models
• New models/units for Ironjawz & Bonesplitterz

[Kronos]

-Soul-blight and Zombies, but thats pretty much confirmed now sooo...

- Chaos Dwarfs, Still Heartbroken FW would do something like that, infernal Guard are onenof the best looking units out there, they really haven’t aged. So plastic up that entire range, Give me a Mechanical armoured lord and guard and lets stop playing difficult to get yh GW?

-Lizardmen, remember them GW, remember, Blue and green guys, lizard like features, much beloved by Fantasy and xenos players. Had cool big guys called Kroxigors, and Semi god like Toads, yes them - updated in cool plastic kits. And you better not forget the Dead Frog!

-Skaven, because you haven’t really done much for them, sure End Times got some niffty kits, but if you invite me to one of your board meeting and I pulled out a Gutter Runner or Jezzail you’d look away in shame, get your act together.

-Ogre Kingdoms, I’m not even mad, I’m disappointed how many opportunities you’ve had to release some cool celebration Maneaters. You know what Maneaters can’t wear, thats right, Primaris armour. Make up for it and do some ogres, please I’m tired of seeing Patreons trying to fill your gaps. 

-Dwarfs, the fiery Naked Lads and the Steam Punk atheists have their charm, but, c’mon, gives us the hairy Dawi with hammers.

- Malerion and his Goth children,  teased since the beginning, instead we get his weirdly hot mum, which is cool, but I want the Outcast Prince of Darkness now.

-Tyrion, like above but we got his awkward Brother instead, cool, but not quite what I wanted. Please be a Horse.

- and lastly, but definitely not least, For AGE OF SIGMAR 3 I would hugely appreciate it, if you could, dedicate some time from one of your many talented sculptors on the AGE OF SIGMAR studio to possibly create, sculpt, cast and release a SIGMAR model. Just one, and not Sigmar in a Santa outfit, I don’t want Sigmar the easter bunny or Sigmar pretending to be an occupation. Just a really cool Sigmar model.  

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Kronos

[zilberfrid]

@Kronos Sigmar in a Magic Mike guise then?

Beach Bunny Sigmar?

Sigmar on rollerskates?

Edited February 6, 2021 by zilberfrid

[Joseph Mackay]

-remove the double turn.
-nerf shooting completely. This is a melee focused game, if you want to shoot your opponents to death then go play 40K. No shooting attack should have a statline better than 4+ 4+ - 1. The advantage/positives of shooting is that your opponent can’t hit you back like they can in combat, therefore shooting needs to be balanced by either being weaker or costing a lot more than melee units.
-roll off for first turn regardless of drops.
-artefacts can be purchased with points.
-combined with the artefacts point above, battalions no longer give you extra artefacts and therefore cost less, especially with a roll off for first turn.
-mortal wounds almost entirely removed from the game. Make them magic only. The problem with mortal wounds is how oppressive they are to some armies, and originally they used to be quite rare, however back in the era of 2+ rerolling save Liberators, mortal wounds were a necessary evil as it was the only way to deal with them. The above problem was nerfed but the power creep of mortal wounds everywhere continued.
-caps of +1/-1 to modifiers.
-named characters, where it is lore appropriate, MUST be your general. Ie if you’ve got Morathi you can’t make the Hag Queen general.
-lore based restrictions on list building. Each Fyreslayers lodge only has a single Auric Runefather, so if you’re using the Lodge rules then you should be restricted to one Runefather per army, same with things like the Abhorrent Archregent in Flesh-Eaters. In you choose not to take a sub faction then you can take multiples, to represent multiple Lodges/Courts etc coming together.
-base size = wounds characteristic. 25mm =1, 32mm =2, 40mm = 3, 50mm =4 etc. +3 for heroes or something.
-Look Out Sir. Either you can’t target that hero, or the hero can pass wounds to the unit instead.
-Damage Saves. Make it an official game term/rule to remove any confusion and/or rules conflict instead of the current method.
-similar to the above, Universal Special Rules probably should return rather than having a million different rules for ‘+1 save’ etc.
-standardise wargear across the game. All shields give +1 save etc. this doesn’t stop them from also having special abilities though, just makes things consistent.
-moving + terrain. Unless the unit can fly (or has a similar rule), if you can’t physically place a model on the terrain then it can’t end its move there. No more stopping halfway up a tower etc.
-remove battleshock immunity. Units that have bravery based abilities are paying for those abilities and quite frankly it’s a very negative play experience when half the armies in the game can ignore your abilities.

more faction specific wislisting
-Stormcast Eternals. Make them similar to Custodes from 40K, an army of ~20 models. 3+ 3+ baseline for all their weapons, 3+ save if they have shields etc.
-Seraphon. 2 wound Saurus while also having good attacks.
-Fyreslayers. Armywide 6+ damage save-in the lore, the save comes from the runes they all have but in the game only some units get it. Vulkites Berzerker Fury changed to match the Khorne Blood Warriors ability.
-Flesh Eater Courts. Crypt Horrors and Crypt Flayers should have stats similar to Ogres. Minimum 2 damage attacks for a start.
-Daughters Of Khaine. All snake units should have a 4+ save.

[Causalis]

26 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:

nerf shooting completely. This is a melee focused game, if you want to shoot your opponents to death then go play 40K. No shooting attack should have a statline better than 4+ 4+ - 1. The advantage/positives of shooting is that your opponent can’t hit you back like they can in combat, therefore shooting needs to be balanced by either being weaker or costing a lot more than melee units

Say what? AoS has A LOT of ranged units. From Darkshards to the whole Kharadron range, to Flamers to artillery. How would you even remotely justify nerfing the awesome looking Kharadron boats to a 4+ 4+ -1 statline...?

I agree with the sentiment that shooting is too strong atm. It is especially devastating with a double turn. What we need is better defences against shooting. Give all units that move and then shoot -1 to-hit. Make terrain more relevant etc. 

Here's what I would like adressed:

Battleshock

This is a non-mechanic right now. Everyone has access to the generic auto-pass CA and there are a million mechanics, artefacts etc. that just make units immune to morale. Make battleshock relevant! Instead of deleting models, a failed battleshock test could have more gameplay oriented consequences. Maybe a failed BS test could mean the unit has to fight last in the following combat, or must retreat, or can't hold an objective. The possibilities are endless.

Double Turn

For melee armies the DT is quite alright. But for shooting and magic-heavy armies it means pounding the enemy with impunity. Balance this by giving the player who doesn't win the initiative some benefit. Or just let us roll for initiative from turn 3 onwards etc.

Monsters and heroes

Right now monsters feel incredibly fragile. They degrade way too fast or do hardly any damage (Alguzzler Gargant, Kharibdyss, Ghorgon etc.). Have you played Total War Warhammer? THAT'S how monsters should feel like! Like behemoths waiding into units, throwing their weight around and smashing the infantry underfoot. It would be fine with me if all monsters get a (big) increase in points but double their wounds or something like that. 

Lethality

This most likely won't change but the game has become too deadly for my taste. When was the last time a unit of yours has survived more than one round of combat? The only units that stick around for longer are things like Blightkings, Chaos Warriors etc. 

[Kronos]

7 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

@Kronos Sigmar in a Magic Mike guise then?

They are one and the same No?

 

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, Joseph Mackay said:

This is a melee focused game

Stated as fact, with authority.

I'm interested to know which game developers you had over for dinner and a chat about what the game *is.* Surely you're not saying that your preferred style of play is the One True Way, right?

[OkayestDM]

A couple of simple but impactful rules changes that might make shooting a more even-keel mechanic would be the following:

Ensure that the rules clearly  and specifically state that all MW are tied to unmodified rolls, and then definitively codify that all rerolls count as modified rolls. This would prevent fishing for MW in both shooting and melee. Some units might need a little tweaking after that, but it would go a long way towards preventing MW spam, while still keeping it a relevant threat.

Add the following line to Look Out Sir!: "In addition, all unmodified 6s to hit are treated as unmodified 1s."

You can still reroll 1s to hit with Volley Fire and other command abilities or auras, but with the rule above they can only ever turn into regular hits, not mortal wounds.

This just flashed through my head so I haven't had time to shuffle through how this might break the game. Thoughts?

[whispersofblood]

3 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Stated as fact, with authority.

I'm interested to know which game developers you had over for dinner and a chat about what the game *is.* Surely you're not saying that your preferred style of play is the One True Way, right?

The cyclic nature of the outrage machine is quite funny over a long period of time, I'm finally starting to understand why old people find everything so funny. 

It's becoming more and more apparent that most people just don't want very much to occur during the course of a match for risk that they might feel badly about themselves. 

 

 

 

[Bayul]

On 2/5/2021 at 10:14 PM, Televiper11 said:

Wishlisting:

• More useful battalions for CoS and new cities
• New plastics for Seraphon, Skaven, Beasts Of Chaos
• Chaos Undivided for StD w/Belakor (in plastic) as General option
• Updated Gloomspite tome that integrates the new White Dwarf rules
• Duardin United Battletome that includes Dispossessed
• Beasts Of Chaos new tome including the god-marked models
• New models/units for Ironjawz & Bonesplitterz

None of this requires a new edition.

[Televiper11]

3 minutes ago, Bayul said:

None of this requires a new edition.

Nope but a new edition increases the likelihood 

[Bayul]

2 minutes ago, Televiper11 said:

Nope but a new edition increases the likelihood 

How exactly?

[Televiper11]

1 minute ago, Bayul said:

How exactly?

New Battletomes often come with new model releases.

[Overread]

GW doesn't normally release battletomes for an existing edition twice. It's normally rare unless they are adding a huge amount of content to the army. Otherwise new tomes normally come with a new edition of the game. That said we'll get our first proper idea of the future this month with the new DoK And Slaanesh tomes 

[Causalis]

Oh totally forgot:

Make dedicated close combat heroes USEFULL! I'm obviously biased since I play Blades of Khorne, but holy sh*t! With names like Exalted Deathbringer and being champions of the literal god of slaughter one would assume those guys to do damage in melee. But they hit like wet noodles! An example of some well-made CC characters would be the Darkoath Queen and the Chieftain. They are good against their intended targets (heroes and hordes) and have decent command abilities. 

So either up the damage of other dedicated CC characters or change their warscroll so that they fit a different role. But right now, playing Khorne heroes feels just sad...

[MitGas]

2 hours ago, Causalis said:

Oh totally forgot:

Make dedicated close combat heroes USEFULL! I'm obviously biased since I play Blades of Khorne, but holy sh*t! With names like Exalted Deathbringer and being champions of the literal god of slaughter one would assume those guys to do damage in melee. But they hit like wet noodles! An example of some well-made CC characters would be the Darkoath Queen and the Chieftain. They are good against their intended targets (heroes and hordes) and have decent command abilities. 

So either up the damage of other dedicated CC characters or change their warscroll so that they fit a different role. But right now, playing Khorne heroes feels just sad...

It's your own damn fault for not playing Aelves - there you got a decent close combat hero. 🤣  

Looking at the stats Chaos had back in Warhammer, ALL Chaos armies need a significant upgrade in their close combat skills. Yes, even Tzeentch. Used to be just as strong as Nurgle and Slaanesh in CC but had better spells (with Khorne being +1 in CC).