Ejecutor Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 4 hours ago, Whitefang said: Oh yeah, the canon conflicts between TK tomes, Liber Necris and Nagash TOL series is a mess, I think ET also doesn't help because it reaffirmed Vlad as Vashanesh. I admittedly based my opinions mostly on TK tomes and some WFRP material, since they are my most familiar ones. Who is this ET mentioned in a couple of posts? While this ET that comes to my mind could match the TK aesthetic I really doubt it is him 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandlemad Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 This discussion on different TK sources made it occur that the WHC guys/interviewed designers are, I think, quite off when they say that fans’ conception of the TK as neutral/good/whatever comes from the End Times. I think you can track this right back to the 6th ed book, where you have some background on cities (or one city explicitly) having the dead and living co-existing under an undead king, and that short piece of fiction about a tomb king remembering his loved ones and granting an Imperial explorer the ancient medical knowledge needed to save his wife. I don’t think attributing this idea to Settra and all the meme-ified stuff about him since is accurate. That said, those anecdotes don’t change what @Sception points out about their exaggeratedly death-obsessed and conquest-focused culture, though I’d agree with @The Red King that hey, the parodic Egyptian-inspired culture being Bad and the parodic Anglo-French culture being suddenly way more purely Good than it was in 6th-8th ed is… interesting. Wood Elves aside, it makes you wonder about lizardmen, who do the same aggressive recovering of artefacts as the TK, often much more brutally, but have generally been pegged as Good. Still not convinced that there’s much deep meaning to this Good/Evil split beyond the publishing needs of army lists for a relaunched product but still. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonhel Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 I really enjoyed the background posts here. Especially the ones from @Sceptionand @Whitefang. Very interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollowHills Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 I can't speak to Tome Kings as I know almost nothing about them. Personally I like that GW are making Brettonia a good faction and having a clearer divide. No one has to be perfect, but I don't like that most of the GW lore seems to be about making factions bad, badder and, worse. Even Stormcast in AoS went from shining golden heroes to soulless killers by 2.0. Having everyone be "morally grey" doesn't immediately make a setting better or more mature. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrac Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 I mean, back before the grimdark turnaround, bretonians USED to be pure good guys. And norscans weren't murdering barbaric ******, but people trying to survive in hostile lands that could take care of a baby slann and have so much flexibility on their ranks that that same slann could become the leader of a clan. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 18 minutes ago, HollowHills said: No one has to be perfect, but I don't like that most of the GW lore seems to be about making factions bad, badder and, worse. To be honest, that's part of the charm of most GW IPs. Being called "good" in any GW setting is far away from being good, or at least, that's how I see it. Quote I mean, back before the grimdark turnaround, bretonians USED to be pure good guys. And norscans weren't murdering barbaric ******, but people trying to survive in hostile lands that could take care of a baby slann and have so much flexibility on their ranks that that same slann could become the leader of a clan. As an anecdote, Jordan&Sorcery had an awesome interview with Tuomas Pirinen. They've talked about the change between the Red Era and 6th edition. The push for grimdark was because Mordheim and how it was received for the community, the company just pushed the next edition to be like that. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverstu Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 11 minutes ago, Garrac said: I mean, back before the grimdark turnaround, bretonians USED to be pure good guys. And norscans weren't murdering barbaric ******, but people trying to survive in hostile lands that could take care of a baby slann and have so much flexibility on their ranks that that same slann could become the leader of a clan. Yeah I was very disappointed when the Norse turned into just chaos marauders .. I loved their viking style with bezerkers and were-warriors. Plus their associations with Norse Dwarfs .. hoping we see proper Norse dwarfs later on as I'm guessing they will expand things once the game gets [hopefully ]well established. Also very excited to see dwarfs might be coming in the summer with the appearance of the dice... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitGas Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 27 minutes ago, Beliman said: To be honest, that's part of the charm of most GW IPs. Being called "good" in any GW setting is far away from being good, or at least, that's how I see it. As an anecdote, Jordan&Sorcery had an awesome interview with Tuomas Pirinen. They've talked about the change between the Red Era and 6th edition. The push for grimdark was because Mordheim and how it was received for the community, the company just pushed the next edition to be like that. I feel like the grimdark manifested itself long before Mordheim. The big Chaos box (Realm of Chaos) that included rules for Warriors, Daemons and Beastmen as one single army had already very grimdark lore. IIRC, Tuomas was responsible for that one as well. Either way, to this day it‘s my definite picture of what Chaos should be. ❤️ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davariel Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 49 minutes ago, Garrac said: I mean, back before the grimdark turnaround, bretonians USED to be pure good guys. And norscans weren't murdering barbaric ******, but people trying to survive in hostile lands that could take care of a baby slann and have so much flexibility on their ranks that that same slann could become the leader of a clan. That was my first thought on reading this too. It feels to me like the writers are trying to reconcile the different takes on Bretonnia that have existed over the years - both in terms of good versus grimdark, but also by adding avenues to take stuff like the bombards in the variant army lists. It's not exactly the Bretonnia I fell in love with, but I'm honestly really liking what we've seen so far. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Kim Woof-Woof Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 37 minutes ago, MitGas said: I feel like the grimdark manifested itself long before Mordheim. The big Chaos box (Realm of Chaos) that included rules for Warriors, Daemons and Beastmen as one single army had already very grimdark lore. IIRC, Tuomas was responsible for that one as well. Either way, to this day it‘s my definite picture of what Chaos should be. ❤️ Nah, the last time Warriors, Beastmen and Daemons were all in the same army was Fourth Edition's big box (called Warhammer Armies: Chaos). That was definitely before Tuomas Pirinen turned up. 'Realm of Chaos' was Fifth Edition's big box, which was when they divided Chaos into the three armies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Take in mind that Tuomas point wasn't that before him, Fantasy was all shiny and bright (it wasn't). Doens't matter if a few armies were dark or plain evil. The main point was that the company liked the reception of Mordheim and pushed all new art, writting and scultps for Warhammer Fantasy (even if some of them continued to be comical) in the same direction. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitGas Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 20 minutes ago, Big Kim Woof-Woof said: Nah, the last time Warriors, Beastmen and Daemons were all in the same army was Fourth Edition's big box (called Warhammer Armies: Chaos). That was definitely before Tuomas Pirinen turned up. 'Realm of Chaos' was Fifth Edition's big box, which was when they divided Chaos into the three armies. 3 armies that could be fully mixed though and were in the same armybook... I'd put this under technicalities. 😋 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitGas Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 14 minutes ago, Beliman said: Take in mind that Tuomas point wasn't that before him, Fantasy was all shiny and bright (it wasn't). Doens't matter if a few armies were dark or plain evil. The main point was that the company liked the reception of Mordheim and pushed all new art, writting and scultps for Warhammer Fantasy (even if some of them continued to be comical) in the same direction. IMO a good decision overall. 🥰 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petitionercity Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 2 hours ago, HollowHills said: I can't speak to Tome Kings as I know almost nothing about them. Personally I like that GW are making Brettonia a good faction and having a clearer divide. No one has to be perfect, but I don't like that most of the GW lore seems to be about making factions bad, badder and, worse. Even Stormcast in AoS went from shining golden heroes to soulless killers by 2.0. Having everyone be "morally grey" doesn't immediately make a setting better or more mature. The thing is, all the things that made 6th edition bretonnia "bad" or "grey" are still there - the latest loremasters includes lots of the very icky elements of their society, which makes them feel rather skavenblight dinge! It does include very wfrp mentions of freemen in the society - the merchants, scholars, etc - and other tidbits from the four editions. But front and centre is serfdom, and its ills. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattT Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 2 hours ago, Garrac said: I mean, back before the grimdark turnaround, bretonians USED to be pure good guys. And norscans weren't murdering barbaric ******, but people trying to survive in hostile lands that could take care of a baby slann and have so much flexibility on their ranks that that same slann could become the leader of a clan. Norsca turning from the "first line of defence" and thus dead 'ard, into chaos scum riles me too. The army was top cool with the various norse infantry types (that only lives on in the fan based Warmaster). Sadly missed. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petitionercity Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 1 minute ago, MattT said: Norsca turning from the "first line of defence" and thus dead 'ard, into chaos scum riles me too. The army was top cool with the various norse infantry types (that only lives on in the fan based Warmaster). Sadly missed. Doesnt WAP preserve that older Norsca too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandlemad Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, Davariel said: That was my first thought on reading this too. It feels to me like the writers are trying to reconcile the different takes on Bretonnia that have existed over the years - both in terms of good versus grimdark, but also by adding avenues to take stuff like the bombards in the variant army lists. It's not exactly the Bretonnia I fell in love with, but I'm honestly really liking what we've seen so far. That’s a good point and shows how much things have changed. Pre-4th ed/WFRP: more like the Empire but French, used guns and had no real mention of knights or the Lady, decadent nobility, insanely oppressed peasantry, rising middle class 4th-5th ed: shining Arthurian Disneyland where knights are perfectly noble and the peasants know their place 6th ed: grubbier knights, still noble and magical but dangerously honour-obsessed, more links to Wood Elves and the fae, very oppressed peasantry, still not really any middle class TOW: hard to say but somewhere between 4th/5th ed and 6th ed? Personally I don’t find the shining perfection of Arthurian Bretonnia to be interesting pretty much at all. They don’t have to be 40k in France but they really needed the bit of grubbiness that 6th ed brought. Still room for good knights but it’s not a weirdly perfect dream-feudal society out of step with the rest of WHFB. Edited January 4 by sandlemad 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Kim Woof-Woof Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 5 minutes ago, sandlemad said: Personally I don’t find the shining perfection of Arthurian Bretonnia to be interesting pretty much at all. They don’t have to be 40k in France but they really needed the bit of grubbiness that 6th ed brought. Still room for good knights but it’s not a weirdly perfect dream-feudal society out of step with the rest of WHFB. I agree. The grotty madness, like peasants with dead birds (lunch?) strapped to their helmets, was a lot more fun. I remember whoever authored the Sixth Edition book said that they wanted to make Bretonnia less Disney and more 'Gormenghast' or Terry Gilliam's 'Jabberwocky'. Great frames of reference! 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michu Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/04/bretonnian-knights-of-the-realm-on-foot-painted-by-warhammer-community/ Speaking of Bretonnia Edited January 4 by michu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 I think Bretonnia and Norsca both changed not just to be grimdark (Where i dont think Warhammer ever reached the grimderp that 40k has plumbed at times) but also to move away from just being France*/Scandinavia, in the same way they expanded the engineers and wizards in the Empire to move away from being a Landsknecht army. Not coincidentally make them harder to do with historicals at the same time ofc, something that was a lot more successful with Empire than Brets i think? *Arguably more Burgundy? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Also.. More Excitingly than some Foot knights, in the Facebook comment thread for todays article they are finally confirming base sizes for things! They are adding to the list so do check the original source https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTheOldWorld We've been getting some questions about base sizes, so here's a log of the ones we've answered: All Orc infantry 30s The best units in the game (Goblins) 25s Squigs Herds and Hoppers 25s Giant Cave Squig character mounts are on 50s Manglers Squigs on 50x75s Trolls 40s Standard ogres 40s Gnoblars 25s Ogre Lords 40s, Butchers are 40s, but 50x100 with their cauldron, Hunters are 50s, Maneaters are 40s Yheties are 40s Gorgers are 50s. Gors 25s Bestigors 30s Beastman Lords/Shamans 25s or 30s All Minotaurs 50s Ghorgon/Cygor 60x100 Brettonian Pegasi. Mounts: Barded pegasus 40 x 60, Royal pegasus 50x50. Pegasus knights 40x60s Demigryphs 50 x 75s Chaos Knights/Chosen Knights/Marauder Horsemen 30x60s All Chaos warrior infantry 30s Chaos Marauders 25s All Dwarf infantry 25s Shield Bearer Mount 50 Gyrocopters 50s Bolt thrower/cannon/organ gun 50s Flame Cannon/Grudgethrower 50x75s Wild Riders/Sisters of the Thorn/Glade Riders 30x60 Dryads and Branchwraiths 30s Treekin 50s Treemen 50 x 50 mm (min), 50 x 75 mm (max) Warhawk Riders 50s Giant Eagles 50s Forest Dragons 60x100 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan's Cynic Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) Good to know Gyrocopters are in. I know the assumption was they would be, especially with Irondrakes being shown, but their conspicuous absence from any Dwarf photographs thus far had left that lingering question - what with them being relatively 'modern' designs in-universe. Edited January 4 by Clan's Cynic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peasant Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Just now, Clan's Cynic said: Good to know Gyrocopters are in. I know the assumption was they would be, especially with Irondrakes being shown, but their conspicuous absence from any Dwarf photographs thus far had left that lingering question - what with them being relatively 'modern' designs in-universe. Good news! So are irondrakes in? Because I thought of assembly as ironbreakers justo un case no irondrakes in TOW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan's Cynic Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 2 minutes ago, peasant said: Good news! So are irondrakes in? Because I thought of assembly as ironbreakers justo un case no irondrakes in TOW Aye, they appear to be as they've been shown in a few preview photos now (top row, centre, under the Engineer). Edited January 4 by Clan's Cynic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michu Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 High elf standard infantry 25s Dragons 60x100 All High Elf Cavalry 30x60s All High Elf ground Chariots 50 x 100 Skycutter Chariot 60 x 100 Griffon 50 Pheonixs 50x100 Great Eagle 50s Eagle-Claw Bolt Thrower 50s HE update Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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