The Rumour Thread

[cofaxest]

4 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Nah, ideally I want every faction to have their own tome and fully fleshed-out faction.

I only said CoS integration IF there was a hard cap because then they could spice up the humans with clockwork legion people, bird people, what have you. But by and far I’d want those in their own books so they have unique mechanics, lore and maps focused on just them.

I think that all players want that. The problem is that if you will have book for each faction (even minor) at some point they will start to blend one in another. For example we have FS and basically a mirror DoK. So add devouted to sigmar faction in the mix and you will get 3 books that basically flashed out the same idea of religious zelots. With all honesty I believe that 2 cultures blending together could create 3 not 1. So from my standpoint it's much easy to manage 24 books with 3-4 faction in each then 72-96 books. 

[Baron Klatz]

1 minute ago, HorticulusTGA said:

BTW I see Golgeth in the Chamon's Realmsphere and I am happy :') Dawbringers going in Aqshy and Ghyran brings back so much good memories from the Realmgates War and Season of War.

Yeah, what I love about Broken Realms + AoS3 is it’s doing so much expansions and references to the AoS1 stuff(as said before Gnarlwoods being the biggest and absolutely love the new NightHaunt faction of liquid metal ghosts from Elixia which was our first big campaign in “Quest for Ghal Maraz” back in 2015)

Really shows how much attention they’re giving things and growing the setting out from the earliest seeds it started with!😍

4 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

(minus the Seraphon ship of course - maybe with one or two Silver Towers added).

I imagine we’ll at least keep tabs on Lord Kroak’s ship/fleet in the future as it’s looking to be a big player in future events from it’s destroying of that one Silver Tower(said ship was powered down at the time too with resources going to the draconith eggs), sending visions to key people from it, beaming down reinforcements to Excelsis and the like and is the big meeting place and hatchery of Draconith with it’s world chamber not a jungle world but instead a replica world of Thondia he made for the Draconith to relive their old empire in as a warm-up to rebuild the real thing.

6 minutes ago, cofaxest said:

For example we have FS and basically a mirror DoK. So add devouted to sigmar faction in the mix and you will get 3 books that basically flashed out the same idea of religious zelots.

To me that just says those 3 zealot factions need more expanding so they stand up on their own. No one would mind the zealot similarities if their supports are hordes of magma monsters, monster girl legions and temples on wheels to make each holy war unique.  

[Tonhel]

1 hour ago, CommissarRotke said:

as many as can be thought of, same for any faction/species in a fantasy setting... I love that AOS isn't afraid to get weird with it. WHF technically only has one type of elf. Lorewise the split was interesting, aesthetically it was boring and I'll stand by that. You either had High Elves, Spiky High Elves, or Green High Elves.

AOS now has:

failed experiment undersea Idoneth
rescued elves of each "original flavor" (Cities)
monstrous Khinerai in DoK
elemental-aligned zen elves in Lumineth
ghostly forest spirit elves in Sylvaneth
bestial, part-animal Kurnothi elves
and shadow daemon infested/aligned Umbraneth that I'm sure will look uniquely different from the rest

Same thing with the orcs and even the humans--it is a net positive that AOS has so many different design spaces sprung from the old, overdone fantasy species. I am also worried about book bloat, however the answer to that is not to downsize the design space but for GW to rethink how they MAKE us engage with their products. Like free basic rules and warscrolls, digitized PDFs, better apps...

 

48 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Nah, ideally I want every faction to have their own tome and fully fleshed-out faction.

I only said CoS integration IF there was a hard cap because then they could spice up the humans with clockwork legion people, bird people, what have you. But by and far I’d want those in their own books so they have unique mechanics, lore and maps focused on just them.

Otherwise you get the Beastclaw and Bonesplitterz problem where they start to crowd eachother out and lose the identity.(Mawtribes tomes don’t specify the unique languages, tribal tattoos & traditions of the Beastclaws anymore as they’re treated as a component of the larger group and Bonesplitterz lost almost all of their hunting flavor and unique rules)

I’ll make compromises but that doesn’t mean I want to nor do I want to look at these with a downer “bare minimum” attitude.

Fine if you want those but to me the old days should stay in the old days, they bore me to tears. AoS should keep pushing forward being inventive & creative while constantly expanding itself with new ideas.

Yes, yes and I am certain those mini's would look beautiful. 

But what is possible fluff wise is not the same what ruleswise is possible. (ignoring the logistics side of all those new things). Imo, the basic stats for Warscrolls are to simple. So units and armies need a lot of special rules to make each unit/army different in playstyle. This combined with almost no universal rules that are shared between armies. Like i.e hatred, frenzy, stubborn and etc.. those rules exist in one way or another in each army, but each army gives the rule a different name, or a slight rules modification. As a casual player it's not so easy. Imagine that you add all colours / flavours of elves, dwarves and etc.. that the story writers can come up with.. it's just not possible with those limited stats in AoS. It means that each unit / army needs more and more special rules.. It's probably our group, but we did find 8th edition easier and we play AoS almost from the beginning (but not weekly).

Anway this is probably not the place to discuss it. But for AoS future it would be much better that there is a limited amount of armies equally divided between the 4 alliances and in each alliance you have a variaty of playstyles and more universal rules. This is much better than moar... moar units and armies. 😉

I think we have a different view of inventive & creative. AoS is a great game, but with each edition, generals handbook or battletome it becomes as I posted above more complex. I like that they added more artefacts, command abilities in an attempt to allow players a form of customization for the characters (leaders) of their army. But in the end it makes it all more complex if you don't play weekly. You can say, don't use it. True, but than the game is to bland.

With Warhammer I had more or less an idea of what the rules of each unit in the game, with AoS it's much more difficult.

 

[CommissarRotke]

40 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

we did find 8th edition easier

I don't disagree that GW needs to universalize more AOS rules/keywords/ability wording so the only difference is the faction's take on X. Like "frenzy" for DOK could be Blood Frenzy, while it's Vulcatrix's Fury for Fyreslayers etc. but the wordings and effects are the same.

However, we need to remember that if you played 40k or WHF as a kid/teenager, we have huge selection bias. Those rules are "easier" or "simpler" to us because we memorized all the rolling tables and weapon sheets as youngins.

WHF and 40k both still have the same level of complexity as AOS, maybe even more for 40k because weapons, but it will always FEEL simpler because we learned the foundations of those rules 10, 20, or even 30 odd years ago.

edit: @Tonhel I think you would enjoy Rob's video here, he talks a lot about the issues of complexity and bloat. He made a lot of good points I hadn't considered before watching it

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by CommissarRotke

[RileyArlic]

GW are always changing up how they make their games, and are always looking out for how they can keep people buying the books and models.

Thankfully, they have at least one ear to the ground for how the community at large reacts to the progression of their systems. Bloat and complication stymied the growth of Warhammer 40k, and there wasn't an easy way for them to shift that.

AoS already has a few simplified systems compared to 40k. To-hit and to-wound are flat stats based on weapon, which is something that 40k is only now starting to adopt (at least in the to-hit realm). The issue now is that AoS is starting to see more of the bloat from the subfaction rules standpoint (which was half of the issue in 40k's bloat) but not the stratagem bloat. In place of stratagems, AoS's issue is the abundance of Mortal Wounds, making any sort of defense other than Ward saves increasingly useless. 

The big question that we have in terms of speculation for 4th edition is whether AoS will try to do a big 'reset' ala 40k's 8th and 10th editions, or if they will keep the system they have and try to find other ways to tweak and adjust the system. In other words: Does AoS's current system have room for them to make adjustments to the core rules that would help balance the systems in place in the battletomes? 

Looking at how they're starting a big narrative thread well before the end of the edition, and that we're basically 2 battletomes away from having the complete set (well ahead of when 40k finally printed their last codex, compared to edition-end, RIP World Eaters players), I think AoS is in a pretty good place overall. It's unlikely that we will get any further powercreep, and there's a full year that GW can balance points and FAQ rules to make sure that the game is solid and Kruleboyz can get out of the lowest spot in the meta. 

[Tervindar]

My only complaint is that rules feel like they are all over the place unless there is somewhere that I'm not aware of or made a cheat sheet by the community. Like the grand strategies, heroic actions, monstrous abilities, battle tactics. Tbh, I wouldn't mind if some of those could be condensed down as it feel like its a lot more that needs to be kept track of besides the verbose army and unit rules. 

I do wish the GHB was yearly again though, feels a bit bad buying a $50 book twice a year, especially if you don't get to play that often, but at that point could just omit that purchase.  I did find Rob's reaction to MIniac to be helpful, imo. Along with the deep dive that they did with Warhammer weekly. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Tervindar

[Baron Klatz]

On more of the lore-side of things we got a peek of the new Wyldwoods daemon warband:

 

And someone on the AoSlore Reddit was kind enough to provide interesting summaries of the new battletome:

Favorite bits:

*There's a funny Orruk myth about how the savage Seraphon of Koatl's Claw was created. They believe Mork spat onto Ghur, devestating the land. A bunch of frogs drank his spit and absorbed his kunnin'. The "frog-boyz" then used their magic to create reptilian servants they sent out to war, but unfortunately their brains got too big and their heads exploded, leading their warriors leaderless.

*The Seraphon are the only race known to have gone beneath the Mortal Realms: the Skaven have stories of digging so far down they discovered golden structures clinging to the underside. In addition, to avoid the Cursed Skies several Temple-Ships have moved underneath the Mortal Realms.

*The Slann see the Dawnbringer Crusades as useful methods to protect points of geomantic power that are too important to leave unguarded but not so important only the Seraphon can be trusted with their custody. They often send down cohorts of Saurus to protect the geomantic node. Although the citizens accept them due to knowing they're enemies of Chaos, the Saurus' refusal to communicate results in many rumors about what exactly they are.

*The relationship between the Seraphon and Dracothion is heavily elaborated on. The Seraphon see Dracothion as a messenger or servant to the Old Ones, especially the constellation of Dracothion's Tail which regularly holds council with Stardrakes. There's even a viginette where Dracothion himself helps a Slann interpret an ancient tablet.
 

*Lord Kroak was thought to have died when the World that Was was destroyed, only to re-emerge when the Seraphon were fighting the primordial monsters that ruled Azyr before their arrival. Lord Kroak kept on disappearing and appearing on occassion for a long time, only taking up permanent command of the temple ship Itza-huitlan after the Necroquake.

*The Itza-Huitlan is the greatest of all temple-ships, with the skinks believiung it has its own soul bestowed upon it by the Old Ones. It has created its own sub-realm within itself that acts as a recreation of Thondia, which was used to nuture the Draconith. However, doing so drains a lot of its power, thus the vessel spends most of its time hiding in the upper reaches of Azyr. Kroak awaits the day when all of the Draconith are released, the sub-realm can be broken down back into magical energy and the Itza-Huitlan can once again operate at its full potential.

*Coatl are confirmed to still be around: it is stated they can often be found guarding geomantic nexuses deep within the jungle. In addition, an artifact for Coalesced Slann is a baby Coatl that acts as a familiar.

They missed a few bits I noted like a Slann up in high Azyr having a vision Sotek allowed to World-that-Was to die so the Seraphon could reach true ascension and then he and his ship turned into pure energy and vanished(sounds like a set-up for future Starborne energy beings now that the Coalesced vibes are covered for Ghur)

Edit: Hup, guy was nice enough to write-out the original text for me:

”A cabal of slann lead by Starmaster Tuomoq propose a radical notion. They posit that it was not Chaos that devoured the world that was but Sotek, for the Serpent God desired for the slann to abandon physical limitations and, in a new cycle of creation, become creator-god energy-beings of unbound potential. As visions continue to assail him, Tuomoq's proclamations become increasingly esoteric, until he and his inner circle suddenly vanish; their vessels are last seen bound for the uppermost reaches of Azyr, where the strangest cosmic entities convalesce. Though many slann mourn him as finally being overwhelmed by the mental strain of aeons, private adherents to his teachings continue to lead many Starborne constellations.”

 

and one story where a Astral Templar Stormcast and Saurus rest after defending a Dawner settlement from Orruk attacks to which the Seraphon won’t respond to the Stormcast’s small talk but when she brings up how many kills she got he takes interest begins pounding his tail on the ground to give a tally(which yeah, Soulbound “Stars and Scales” notes they can’t physically communicate other languages without use of sign language or using specialized old one devices)

 

The Mortal Realms Podcast also covers some of these and is worth a listen.

They also had a interview with the “God-eater’s Son” novel author which is really cool.

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Baron Klatz

[Ganigumo]

48 minutes ago, Tervindar said:

My only complaint is that rules feel like they are all over the place unless there is somewhere that I'm not aware of or made a cheat sheet by the community. Like the grand strategies, heroic actions, monstrous abilities, battle tactics. Tbh, I wouldn't mind if some of those could be condensed down as it feel like its a lot more that needs to be kept track of besides the verbose army and unit rules. 

I do wish the GHB was yearly again though, feels a bit bad buying a $50 book twice a year, especially if you don't get to play that often, but at that point could just omit that purchase.  I did find Rob's reaction to MIniac to be helpful, imo. Along with the deep dive that they did with Warhammer weekly. 

Going to plug Wierdnobz AoS reference sheet, its fantastic.
Its frequently updated, and while it has a lot of pages you generally only actually need 1-2, the page for the rules reference, and the current GHB's reference. Its also got a "printer friendly" version at the back that doesn't have the image in the background.

[KingBrodd]

Just off a 9 hour flight with another 16 hour connecting flight to come Im trying to catch up on the thread but I am DEeeeelrrious.

I personally think that the Harbinger Campaign was due out much earlier in the Edition alongside COS themselves and was delayee due to Covid.

I think there will be another Narrative event before the end of the Edition.

[Chikout]

3 hours ago, KingBrodd said:

Just off a 9 hour flight with another 16 hour connecting flight to come Im trying to catch up on the thread but I am DEeeeelrrious.

I personally think that the Harbinger Campaign was due out much earlier in the Edition alongside COS themselves and was delayee due to Covid.

I think there will be another Narrative event before the end of the Edition.

To add a bit of fuel to this rumour. The designer of the Rabble-Rowza said he finished him before he designed the Dok gladiatrix. Eddie said in the preview that they had to wait for the cities release. Combine that with the constant mentions of the dawnbringers in all the other battletomes and it paints a picture of something that should have started earlier. 

[Nezzhil]

4 hours ago, KingBrodd said:

Just off a 9 hour flight with another 16 hour connecting flight to come Im trying to catch up on the thread but I am DEeeeelrrious.

I personally think that the Harbinger Campaign was due out much earlier in the Edition alongside COS themselves and was delayee due to Covid.

I think there will be another Narrative event before the end of the Edition.

Arks of Omen were 4 books at the begininng. We can have one last book on 2024 and one more battletome to complete the edition as I expected.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Chikout said:

To add a bit of fuel to this rumour. The designer of the Rabble-Rowza said he finished him before he designed the Dok gladiatrix. Eddie said in the preview that they had to wait for the cities release. Combine that with the constant mentions of the dawnbringers in all the other battletomes and it paints a picture of something that should have started earlier. 

Does that imply that the Cities release was delayed, then? That would certainly explain the suspiciously long pre-release periode.

[Chikout]

6 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Does that imply that the Cities release was delayed, then? That would certainly explain the suspiciously long pre-release periode.

It wouldn't surprise me if cities were originally intended to arrive in spring and the first campaign book in winter. We would then have alternated between campaign book and pair of  battletomes. This is all speculation but the rush of 8 battletomes in 5 months is also highly unusual. 

[The Lost Sigmarite]

You make some good points. The 2022 rush of BTs (and the one of march 2023), a narrative campaign dropping now in the second half of the edition but also not quite at the end of it, Eddie Eccles saying he had to wait for Cities to release (strange for GW staff to say that, especially when they're in the secrets of the new releases), and the rabble-rowza and high gladiatrix sculpting/release timeline shenanigans are pretty telling something went amiss in Nottingham. I think blaming Covid is the most logical option.

I think (tinfoil hat time) that was also the reason why we have that playtester rumour about the FS and IDK units that may or may not exist (Schrödinger's units if you will). In my little head, they couldn't release them for the IDK and FS BTs because of Covid related production issues, so they keep them under their belt until they can release them in a relevant manner.

[Gitzdee]

Also want to add that some of the FEC and Soulblight releases felt like delayed Cursed City expensions. I am kind of hoping we are getting a 4 year cycle but thats wishfull thinking.

[Draznak]

3 hours ago, Chikout said:

It wouldn't surprise me if cities were originally intended to arrive in spring and the first campaign book in winter. 

I would find it surprising if COS was delayed in GW's original release schedule.

 

At the moment, I feel like COS reveals are on the same schedule as the Leagues of Votann last year : first mini reveal late March (COS foot soldier)/early April (hearthkyn warrior), second mini/unit at WarFest...

 

This tells me that we should have the next Cities's reveal around the beginning of June (Leagues had two this month) then it will be more and more regular in July then in August to finish with the final reveal, including the army set, during Nova Open, on August 30th. The army set would be released in September (jut like LoV) or so to precede the complete army release in October or early November.

 

All this to say that I feel like this schedule was planned by GW for a long time, with no disruptions, COVID or otherwise.

[Chikout]

28 minutes ago, Draznak said:

I would find it surprising if COS was delayed in GW's original release schedule.

 

At the moment, I feel like COS reveals are on the same schedule as the Leagues of Votann last year : first mini reveal late March (COS foot soldier)/early April (hearthkyn warrior), second mini/unit at WarFest...

 

This tells me that we should have the next Cities's reveal around the beginning of June (Leagues had two this month) then it will be more and more regular in July then in August to finish with the final reveal, including the army set, during Nova Open, on August 30th. The army set would be released in September (jut like LoV) or so to precede the complete army release in October or early November.

 

All this to say that I feel like this schedule was planned by GW for a long time, with no disruptions, COVID or otherwise.

COVID isn't the only reason something gets delayed. They had said ages ago that they were having trouble imagining what the ordinary people of the realms would look like. The Seraphon are a much more straightforward reimagining of the existing line. Sculpts are finished 2 or so years before release. It's possible that back in 2020 when the cities sculpts were due to be completed, some designs got sent back to the drawing board. Seraphon or FeC could have been intended to fill the autumn LoV slot with cities intended for the Eldar slot. 

Again its all speculation but that's pretty much the nature of rumours. If we do get another series of books like Broken Realms next year it's more evidence that this release was delayed. If we don't then maybe this is all going as GW planned. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Chikout

[Ogregut]

2 hours ago, Draznak said:

I would find it surprising if COS was delayed in GW's original release schedule.

 

At the moment, I feel like COS reveals are on the same schedule as the Leagues of Votann last year : first mini reveal late March (COS foot soldier)/early April (hearthkyn warrior), second mini/unit at WarFest...

 

This tells me that we should have the next Cities's reveal around the beginning of June (Leagues had two this month) then it will be more and more regular in July then in August to finish with the final reveal, including the army set, during Nova Open, on August 30th. The army set would be released in September (jut like LoV) or so to precede the complete army release in October or early November.

 

All this to say that I feel like this schedule was planned by GW for a long time, with no disruptions, COVID or otherwise.

Agreed. It's to big of a release not to have been penciled in for a certain release window. 

I think some people forget how far in advance GW work. The cities battletome and models would have been finished and complete well in advance, probably this time last year. 

Plus as everything is now produced in house, I can't see what could cause a delay. 

[Beliman]

Rules for SCA and Tzeentch Underworlds warbands:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/downloads/#warhammer-age-of-sigmar

Nothing big but it's nice to see that hey are exploring more mechanics. The Aethercharged quarter seems interesting.

Sacrafice some pawns to buffs is soemthing that we already see in some Heroes, but feels really good to see something like that for Ephilim.

A bit weird that both units have ranged magic profiles like Kairic Acolytes. It remind me about 10th edition spells...

[madmac]

24 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Rules for SCA and Tzeentch Underworlds warbands: 

A bit weird that both units have ranged magic profiles like Kairic Acolytes. It remind me about 10th edition spells...

In both Underworlds and Warcry, mages usually have basic pew pew attacks, so that tends to get translated over to their AoS rules. It's also starting to show up in some new mages that aren't sidegame crossovers, like the new LRL mage, it just hasn't been standardized yet as a concept I think.

[LordSolarMach]

2 hours ago, Draznak said:

...At the moment, I feel like COS reveals are on the same schedule as the Leagues of Votann last year : first mini reveal late March (COS foot soldier)/early April (hearthkyn warrior), second mini/unit at WarFest...

On the other hand, GW announced at last year's Warhammer Fest that they were going to be doing Codex: World Eaters and Battletome: Cities of Sigmar, showing off renders for each (and saying that they'd continue to update us on their developments).

As those "development diaries" are an exercise in marketing (they are not actually showing anything that's subject to change), I'd have expected them to be set to run for a roughly equal amount of time. Instead, World Eaters were early February, whereas CoS seem like they'll be over half a year later (September, probably).

[TechnoVampire]

On 5/2/2023 at 2:03 PM, Arzalyn said:

I doubt we will see more than one brand new faction in the next edition, this edition all we had were kruleboyz, which sadly are part of the mess that is the warclans. About the battletome releases,  I personally hope they change this formula soon (realistic I doubt it will happen in 4e, but still). May hope would be they change to a system where you release all the up to date rules for each faction at the launch and during the edition you just add new units/heroes to factions (basically war scrolls) and keep the game fresh with GHB changes + narratives arcs. Going even further, keeping those rules mostly digital (so they can be more easily updated when needed) and sell an "army lore and hobby" book with the faction lore, how to pain guides and a better narrative section (anvil for each faction, narrative battalions), rather than chaining rules to those books. Maybe this way they would have to devout more time to actually updating the factions lore and creating new content in those books, as in 3rd for most of the tomes the changes are mostly on the rules section...

For me this is 100% the best answer. Having digital subscription based army rules would allow GW To quickly change points or rules that are out of balance, meaning as players we don’t have to wait years for an update if an army or key unit suddenly sucks or breaks the game. 

It feels like this is a logical progression on many levels, and popular for players, however GW will probably avoid this as long as possible, because they are terrified of having rules pirated and they love selling printed rules on dead trees. Maybe if the community increases pressure GW might eventually start to listen. 

[EonChao]

27 minutes ago, LordSolarMach said:

On the other hand, GW announced at last year's Warhammer Fest that they were going to be doing Codex: World Eaters and Battletome: Cities of Sigmar, showing off renders for each (and saying that they'd continue to update us on their developments).

As those "development diaries" are an exercise in marketing (they are not actually showing anything that's subject to change), I'd have expected them to be set to run for a roughly equal amount of time. Instead, World Eaters were early February, whereas CoS seem like they'll be over half a year later (September, probably).

World Eaters will also probably be a much smaller project than CoS. Remember World Eaters was just Angron, a mounted character and 3 unit kits. Some of those had options but it's only a small amount of releases.

[Hollow]

I'm all for digital content as a FREE option or as part of a Warhammer + subscription, in ADDITION to printed content. I do not want Warhammer to turn into yet another subscription service. I like books and printed media. (Although I would prefer fewer publications of much higher quality) I still have publications that I love from  20+ years ago. The idea of losing access to stuff if you don't pay a month's sub sucks. I really don't like how everything is becoming a sub and you don't actually own anything. 

[madmac]

34 minutes ago, LordSolarMach said:

On the other hand, GW announced at last year's Warhammer Fest that they were going to be doing Codex: World Eaters and Battletome: Cities of Sigmar, showing off renders for each (and saying that they'd continue to update us on their developments).

As those "development diaries" are an exercise in marketing (they are not actually showing anything that's subject to change), I'd have expected them to be set to run for a roughly equal amount of time. Instead, World Eaters were early February, whereas CoS seem like they'll be over half a year later (September, probably).

Yeah, I think people forget how unbelievably slow the CoS rollout has been compared to usual. In an entire year we've gotten like two pictures of renders and 1.3 unit reveals.