The Rumour Thread

[Malakithe]

7 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

That just sounds like a general downward adjustment in power level to me? If you're saying that every 3rd edition book is weaker than what came before aside from one specific build that can still compete at the top level, that seems like a decent way to keep power creep in check. GW can keep doing that until the problem ("S-tier") armies get renewed and similarly reduced in power, and then go back and adjust a few units in each book - pigs, Longstrikes, Fulminators, HGBs, etc - and then the overall rebalance is finished with a lower baseline.

I'm not really crediting GW with that much foresight, but if the general trend is that power is down, that seems like a deliberate pattern... and a good thing, IMO. Nobody's going to stop you being upset, but getting worked up about it sure sounds like a lot of effort for no gain.

That would address power creep by sort of soft resetting stuff as its updated. But as you said I dont see them doing that...I mean look at 40k right now. Each book is more shocking and ridiculous then the last. At some point the bubble will pop 

[Kadeton]

19 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

That would address power creep by sort of soft resetting stuff as its updated. But as you said I dont see them doing that...I mean look at 40k right now. Each book is more shocking and ridiculous then the last. At some point the bubble will pop 

One of the things GW has proven they're remarkably good at over their long history - the basic reason why they have a long history - is sustaining an endless power creep cycle. It's like the Shepard Illusion, where sounds appear to be constantly rising in pitch but never fundamentally change.

I do try to avoid looking at 40K these days. But players have been saying variations on "This power creep is ridiculous, they can't keep going like this!" for multiple decades now.

[Flippy]

5 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Bonesplitterz...are they even a faction now?

https://plasticcraic.blog/2022/03/02/going-4-1-with-bonesplitterz-and-kragnos/

Highly recommended - entertaining and instructive blog. Moreover, an exemplar of good attitude: a perceived "weakness" of a faction should not stop you from having fun.

5 hours ago, Malakithe said:

And IJ can only play with piggies.

Ironically, when the codex was released, people were amazed by the Brutes (still very good unit). So much about the initial impression.

Quote

I mean look at 40k right now. Each book is more shocking and ridiculous then the last.

I don't play this, but enjoy the occasional read. It seems that, surprisingly, the Eldar do not fit into this pattern (https://www.goonhammer.com/the-codex-aeldari-competitive-roundtable/).

[Malakithe]

17 minutes ago, Flippy said:

I don't play this, but enjoy the occasional read. It seems that, surprisingly, the Eldar do not fit into this pattern (https://www.goonhammer.com/the-codex-aeldari-competitive-roundtable/).

I do both systems and Eldar, while have some really cool and fun stuff, didnt break stuff too much. Chaos has a long tradition of being ****** no matter when their codex comes out so everyone is sweating bullets while waiting. Nids are looking pretty good from the leaks that are starting to come through.

[HollowHills]

Honestly as an Idoneth player I don't want the book to come out and be seen as clearly superior to existing armies. Why? Lots of reasons.

1) Powercreep happens but it isn't good for the game. The current top lists are outliers that need toning down through balance. If Idoneth came out and were immediately better in every way then that just makes balance worse. It also widens the gap between armies even more.

2) Playing an oppressive army genuinely isn't super fun. I've had more fun running Idoneth lists since BR Morathi than I ever did when we were right at the top with eel spam. I get to take sharks, some eels, a turtle and nemarti + heroes. I'm not a major tournament player by any means, but I've had no problem holding my own and competing Vs the top meta lists when I've played them. Did I win all my games? No, but I found my games challenging and stimulating either way.

3) Playing a viable, but not top tier army is a really engaging way to play. You know you can win but you also know you will have to play well to do so.

4) Removing mass access to rerolls is good for the game. Playing against 2s and 2s rerolling isn't fun for anyone. I think a lot of people would be comfortable with Idoneth having higher damage, like with the harpoon changes to d3, rather than near guaranteed lower damage. Mathematically it works out similarly, but it just feels better to play against than seeing your opponent guarantee all their rolls.

[Enoby]

1 hour ago, HollowHills said:

Honestly as an Idoneth player I don't want the book to come out and be seen as clearly superior to existing armies. Why? Lots of reasons.

Totally agree with what you've said, and have a few things to add:

When I played 2019 Slaanesh, which as many remember was an awfully overpowered and oppressive book, it left me in bad situation when it came to casual games. The reputation of the book meant that nobody wanted to play against the army, no matter if you were playing three Keepers or only a single hero and a load of chariots. 

In addition, depending on the attitude of the opponent, occasionally there were lose-lose games:

- If you won, you were carried by the book.

- If you lose, you must suck to have managed that.

That's not to say being significantly underpowered is fun either, but OP sounds much more exciting than it is when it comes to casual match ups.

[KingBrodd]

Monsieur Squeakums!!

[Malakithe]

Can we vote to change @Skreech Verminking name to Monsieur Squeakums?

[Kitsumy]

5 hours ago, HollowHills said:

Playing an oppressive army genuinely isn't super fun. I've had more fun running Idoneth lists since BR Morathi than I ever did when we were right at the top with eel spam. I get to take sharks, some eels, a turtle and nemarti + heroes. I'm not a major tournament player by any means, but I've had no problem holding my own and competing Vs the top meta lists when I've played them. Did I win all my games? No, but I found my games challenging and stimulating either way

thats exactly my feelings. idk has been a really bad tome since his release since u were forced to play only eels and voltu or u couldnt even start playing. but since morathy the book has been great since most of minis were playables. and after fury of the deep box.... best tome ever. every miniature was great to use but in general idk wasnt a top army, it keep being a midtier army but with everything feeling good.

 

new book if rumour i have are true. and im sure of them is going back to eel spam era but changing to namarti spam.as unhealty as those first years were. everything besides namarti is getting worse( despite those minis being on a mid army, not on a oppressive top army), and only namartis are staying the same or getting new things.

[Gailon]

6 hours ago, Enoby said:

Totally agree with what you've said, and have a few things to add:

When I played 2019 Slaanesh, which as many remember was an awfully overpowered and oppressive book, it left me in bad situation when it came to casual games. The reputation of the book meant that nobody wanted to play against the army, no matter if you were playing three Keepers or only a single hero and a load of chariots. 

In addition, depending on the attitude of the opponent, occasionally there were lose-lose games:

- If you won, you were carried by the book.

- If you lose, you must suck to have managed that.

That's not to say being significantly underpowered is fun either, but OP sounds much more exciting than it is when it comes to casual match ups.

This is definitely how Seraphon feels right now to me. There is enough variability in the book that it is easy to bring a more reasonable list. But then you get that lose lose you are talking about. And someone has to really understand Seraphon to see that my list is ‘more fair’ 

[novakai]

10 hours ago, Kadeton said:

One of the things GW has proven they're remarkably good at over their long history - the basic reason why they have a long history - is sustaining an endless power creep cycle. It's like the Shepard Illusion, where sounds appear to be constantly rising in pitch but never fundamentally change.

I do try to avoid looking at 40K these days. But players have been saying variations on "This power creep is ridiculous, they can't keep going like this!" for multiple decades now.

Maybe for decade but it gotten really bad recently with DE and Ad Mech that GW where force or at least had to begrudgingly turn course with how they updated rules with update, so at least something must have happen to fundamentally change recently.

especially now that they partner up ITC I  would assume that they pretty much are more in the tournament scene that they are going to put more on the illusion of balance on both system now that they went into the competitive zone of the community

[novakai]

On topic of books, I think generally people like stronger books like Seraphon and DoK ( not counting that they should have adjusted Morathi CA on shooting twice with bow snakes by now) because the balance and unit plays were really good in those books even if there where some clearly strong choices ( Hag Narr is still strongest sub faction but the other ones are at least fun and stear you to different list building, like the one with sister of slaughter). It oppressive and also badly design books that people are generally not down on like the first Slaanesh book being screwed too much to summoning or maybe stuff like FEC gristlegore and OBR petrified elite where power level between that one specific sub faction and the rest of the book is bad but also both screwed the meta when they release. I generally think there a good balance between power level and unit choices since GW have shown they could do it but choice to give up trying to achieve it this edition so we end up with SCE battletome where they stack the power into Dragons, Longstrikes, and Fulminators and just called it a day and everything else is just whatever.
 

granted people definition of strong book is very different, I yet to meet many people who say Slaves to Darkness is a good book (mainly because chaos warriors are so bad) except Warhammer weekly who say it one of the best book they ever release ( press X to doubt)

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Can we vote to change @Skreech Verminking name to Monsieur Squeakums?

I’m not certain that my french is good enough.

can’t even remember the basic,

so I’ll stay woth the good ol’ name of moghty Skreech Verminking,

Yes-yes😜

 

[KingBrodd]

With Warhammer Worlds 25th Anniversary this weekend do you think we could see any more Previews before Adepticon?

[CommissarRotke]

10 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

With Warhammer Worlds 25th Anniversary this weekend do you think we could see any more Previews before Adepticon?

I would hope so, though I think that Kruleboyz shaman sculpt they showed off a while back was for the anniversary?

[Clan's Cynic]

12 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

With Warhammer Worlds 25th Anniversary this weekend do you think we could see any more Previews before Adepticon?

I think we might see a couple of things, but no big reveals. Maybe some new/resculpted Hero/HQ models for 40k and a Horus Heresy tease now the leaks are pouring out of the tap.

[Wordy9th]

Should I read anything into there being a 40k doubles tournament but naught for AoS? 😇

[KingBrodd]

26 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

I would hope so, though I think that Kruleboyz shaman sculpt they showed off a while back was for the anniversary?

I believe it was. I hope we see something AOS at least.

24 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

I think we might see a couple of things, but no big reveals. Maybe some new/resculpted Hero/HQ models for 40k and a Horus Heresy tease now the leaks are pouring out of the tap.

I'd hope to see at least 1 or 2 minis for AOS and its side games. Maybe another of the upcoming Undead Warband members or a new Warcry mini.

[GrimDork]

49 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

I would hope so, though I think that Kruleboyz shaman sculpt they showed off a while back was for the anniversary?

I think it was an event exclusive miniature. Think it was available at the LVO recently, tho should be at the WH world as well.

[Rebluff]

3 hours ago, novakai said:

On topic of books, I think generally people like stronger books like Seraphon and DoK ( not counting that they should have adjusted Morathi CA on shooting twice with bow snakes by now) because the balance and unit plays were really good in those books even if there where some clearly strong choices ( Hag Narr is still strongest sub faction but the other ones are at least fun and stear you to different list building, like the one with sister of slaughter). It oppressive and also badly design books that people are generally not down on like the first Slaanesh book being screwed too much to summoning or maybe stuff like FEC gristlegore and OBR petrified elite where power level between that one specific sub faction and the rest of the book is bad but also both screwed the meta when they release. I generally think there a good balance between power level and unit choices since GW have shown they could do it but choice to give up trying to achieve it this edition so we end up with SCE battletome where they stack the power into Dragons, Longstrikes, and Fulminators and just called it a day and everything else is just whatever.
 

granted people definition of strong book is very different, I yet to meet many people who say Slaves to Darkness is a good book (mainly because chaos warriors are so bad) except Warhammer weekly who say it one of the best book they ever release ( press X to doubt)

I want to clarify something: The DoK book is NOT strong. It's actually a significant nerf in every respect (literally across the board) on where the previous book was after The Morathi supplement. Morathi and her BloodStalkers are strong. The book as a whole is not.

Morathi is insanely strong, bow snakes are insanely strong, their synergy is stupidly strong. Nothing else in the book even really ranks as 'good'. Witch Aelves only see play as minimum units of blocking chaff and khinerai and shadow stalkers are just their to grab objectives. They could be replaced by literally any unit that has a teleport or other rapid movement and it would change nothing. 95% of the codex's power is in the interaction between Morathi and Blood Stalkers. Remove either one of those units, let alone both, and you end up with 'Slaanesh but not as fast as Slaanesh'.

The book is so lopsided that nothing but Morathi and Bloodstalkers matters at all. Your subfaction doesn't matter(which is why Hagg Narr is within 2% of Khellebron in winrate), the other 700pts you bring doesn't matter (as long as they can stand on objectives), your battalions don't matter. As long as you have Morathi and at least 15 bow snakes, you are already at a point where your 1300pts is stronger than any 2000pts you could possibly put together in the Daughters of Khaine Battletome without them.

Morathi needs a nerf. Bow Stalkers need a nerf. Their interaction probably needs to be removed entirely. But if they do that without fixing the fundamental problem DoK melee units have (don't really do any damage, unreliable buffs, glass cannons that are far more glass than cannon, horrific battleshock problems) you end up with a Slaanesh level book, not a Soulblight Gravelords level one.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Rebluff

[Ogregut]

57 minutes ago, Wordy9th said:

Should I read anything into there being a 40k doubles tournament but naught for AoS? 😇

No, they don't run multiple system events at once at WW. 

[Rachmani]

2 hours ago, Rebluff said:

I want to clarify something: The DoK book is NOT strong. It's actually a significant nerf in every respect (literally across the board) on where the previous book was after The Morathi supplement. Morathi and her BloodStalkers are strong. The book as a whole is not.

Morathi is insanely strong, bow snakes are insanely strong, their synergy is stupidly strong. Nothing else in the book even really ranks as 'good'. Witch Aelves only see play as minimum units of blocking chaff and khinerai and shadow stalkers are just their to grab objectives. They could be replaced by literally any unit that has a teleport or other rapid movement and it would change nothing. 95% of the codex's power is in the interaction between Morathi and Blood Stalkers. Remove either one of those units, let alone both, and you end up with 'Slaanesh but not as fast as Slaanesh'.

The book is so lopsided that nothing but Morathi and Bloodstalkers matters at all. Your subfaction doesn't matter(which is why Hagg Narr is within 2% of Khellebron in winrate), the other 700pts you bring doesn't matter (as long as they can stand on objectives), your battalions don't matter. As long as you have Morathi and at least 15 bow snakes, you are already at a point where your 1300pts is stronger than any 2000pts you could possibly put together in the Daughters of Khaine Battletome without them.

Morathi needs a nerf. Bow Stalkers need a nerf. Their interaction probably needs to be removed entirely. But if they do that without fixing the fundamental problem DoK melee units have (don't really do any damage, unreliable buffs, glass cannons that are far more glass than cannon, horrific battleshock problems) you end up with a Slaanesh level book, not a Soulblight Gravelords level one.

Well… There is a reason, DoK get their new book after Idoneth & Fyreslayers. I have some hopes for that book. 

[novakai]

3 hours ago, Rebluff said:

I want to clarify something: The DoK book is NOT strong. It's actually a significant nerf in every respect (literally across the board) on where the previous book was after The Morathi supplement. Morathi and her BloodStalkers are strong. The book as a whole is not.

Morathi is insanely strong, bow snakes are insanely strong, their synergy is stupidly strong. Nothing else in the book even really ranks as 'good'. Witch Aelves only see play as minimum units of blocking chaff and khinerai and shadow stalkers are just their to grab objectives. They could be replaced by literally any unit that has a teleport or other rapid movement and it would change nothing. 95% of the codex's power is in the interaction between Morathi and Blood Stalkers. Remove either one of those units, let alone both, and you end up with 'Slaanesh but not as fast as Slaanesh'.

The book is so lopsided that nothing but Morathi and Bloodstalkers matters at all. Your subfaction doesn't matter(which is why Hagg Narr is within 2% of Khellebron in winrate), the other 700pts you bring doesn't matter (as long as they can stand on objectives), your battalions don't matter. As long as you have Morathi and at least 15 bow snakes, you are already at a point where your 1300pts is stronger than any 2000pts you could possibly put together in the Daughters of Khaine Battletome without them.

Morathi needs a nerf. Bow Stalkers need a nerf. Their interaction probably needs to be removed entirely. But if they do that without fixing the fundamental problem DoK melee units have (don't really do any damage, unreliable buffs, glass cannons that are far more glass than cannon, horrific battleshock problems) you end up with a Slaanesh level book, not a Soulblight Gravelords level one.

It was consider well written before a lot of fundamental changes with prayers and abilities but the real problem was undercosted unit, I know Strengthhammer has done well with the sister of slaughter build and stuff. The problem was that 3.0 screwed a lot of stuff and they didn’t change Morathi CA ability but everyone had the opinion that most DoK unit were viable except for the solo avatar just that it didn’t age well afterwards.

the real problem is that they shouldn’t have release the book so close to the edition change because that book was not written with 3.0 in mind despite what they say otherwise.

Edited March 5, 2022 by novakai

[novakai]

4 hours ago, KingBrodd said:

I believe it was. I hope we see something AOS at least.

I'd hope to see at least 1 or 2 minis for AOS and its side games. Maybe another of the upcoming Undead Warband members or a new Warcry mini.

Nah don’t expect anything, it not a preview event and it Adepticon is right around corner so let not raise false hope on that event lol

edit: we also probably would have known something by now since it literally happening today ( if your in the U.K. time zone)

Edited March 5, 2022 by novakai

[Talas]

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