The Rumour Thread

[AshCrow]

1 hour ago, Malin said:

Easiest thing to remove them for GW is to move them to Warhammer Chronicles/Legends or however it is named. Remove Slaves to Darkness keyword and add Warriors of Chaos, remove points bonus for taking horde and there you go, they are useless for matched play purposes, with Darkoath being better models and most probably some funky new rules no one will think about fielding marauders anymore and rush to buy new stuff instead. #sorted

Oh god, no. If they were to do that they would have done it along with Bretonnia and the Tomb Kings, not 3 years after and after giving them support with the GHB for 2 years.

37 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Darkoath just feels like a chance to be an AoS within an AoS.

What I mean is this:

AoS gave GW the creative freedom to reinvent many things that were stuck in a rut in WFB, from nations to lore to armies to model aesthetics. For instance, elves. They called them aelves, shrouded them in mystery, integrated then into Sigmar's cities and then made Daughters and Deepkin instead of Dark Elves.

Who would have thought that Undead would become Legions plus an army born from 2 or 3 models into a fully realized Nighthaunt army?

StD seems, to me, like an old idea (Norse, Marauders with bows and spiked hair) that grew into something else from 3rd ed through 8th. By time WFB ended, there was just this big pile of repeated and stagnant "guys worshipping chaos in various states of dress and spikiness."

Now they have a chance to reboot the concept in terms of lore and model range. Drop all the old models (which they've shown they have no issue doing, regardless of newness of kits or rabid fanbases), put all the truly elite, fully chaosified stuff in a redone Everchosen list, and recreate the mortal-tribesmen-who-don't-quite-realize-they-are-bad-guys army as the Darkoath.

 

A bit like Stormcast and Freedudes.

 

Also, one small PC benefit. It gets rid of the word Slaves. It's touchy anyway, but with the diversity GW has shown in models and paint job recently (kudos to them), it could be awkward for them to sell "slaves" to parents gift shopping for their little angels.

Do you even realize what you are saying? You are saying it's completely acceptable and even good to trash an entire faction that has been present both in rules and in fluff for the entirety of AoS to replace it with a faction that shares those rules and fluff but it's models don't have spiky armour. Darkoath ARE Salves to Darkness, even GW has said so, they aren't rebooting anything, just updating some old models to the current standard. You speak as if every concept derived from Fantasy was flawed and had to be completely and fundamentally changed for no reason. StD are Archaon's army, in their entirety, even the marauders and the tribes. Even in fantasy, the tribes ere"mortal-tribesmen-who-don't-quite-realize-they-are-bad-guys army". That concept is already in StD, it makes no sense to separate them because they are the same thing, just a bit closer to the final prize in the path to glory.

[Sleboda]

22 minutes ago, AshCrow said:

You speak as if every concept derived from Fantasy was flawed and had to be completely and fundamentally changed for no reason

I'm not saying I like it or that I, personally, think old WFB concepts are flawed (I was a super rage monster when they killed WFB in the End Times. They sold me hundreds of dollars of brand new WFB books at that time and then instantly invalidated them while also changing the rules for the 3 mortarchs and 12 morghasts i bought for my army*). I'm saying that given their recent history of their casual disregard for peoples' model collections in comparison to their desire to keep things fresh and sell new models, it seems like something I could totally see them doing.

Look, they threw away the entire TK range, much of which was fairly new. TK even still have lore in the current game (not to mention, they are 100% l legal in the rules as well).

 

 

* I mean, damn, I had even purchased and converted several units from VC to use in my TK because those brand new, soon to be deleted unbeknownst to anyone rules allowed it for, oh, about 5 seconds. Really, they were very, very underhanded with what they did and it upset me for a long time. I stopped buying any GW for a long time. I had every White Dwarf from issue 107 until this slap in the face. I was livid.

 

Trust me, I'm not advocating scraping model ranges.

[Xasz]

14 minutes ago, xking said:

Slaves to Darkness are not going anywhere. They are about to release a new Christmas box  for them and Darkoath are Salves to Darkness(they have the keyword)

 

Just look at the warscroll https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG Darkoath Warqueen.pdf

Might be a temporary fix, the same way allegiance abilities are handed out in the GHB and overwritten shortly after.

[AshCrow]

3 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

I'm not saying I like it or that I, personally, think old WFB concepts are flawed (I was a super rage monster when they killed WFB in the End Times. They sold me hundreds of dollars of brand new WFB books at that time and then instantly invalidated them while also changing the rules for the 3 mortarchs and 12 morghasts i bought for my army*). I'm saying that given their recent history of their casual disregard for peoples' model collections in comparison to their desire to keep things fresh and sell new models, it seems like something I could totally see them doing.

Look, they threw away the entire TK range, much of which was fairly new. TK even still have lore in the current game (not to mention, they are 100% l legal in the rules as well).

 

 

* I mean, damn, I had even purchased and converted several units from VC to use in my TK because those brand new, soon to be deleted unbeknownst to anyone rules allowed it for, oh, about 5 seconds. Really, they were very, very underhanded with what they did and it upset me for a long time. I stopped buying any GW for a long time. I had every White Dwarf from issue 107 until this slap in the face. I was livid.

 

Trust me, I'm not advocating scraping model ranges.

Again, if they were going to do that, they have had every oportunity to do it, they could have sqautted them along the Tomb Kings (it's been 2 years already and they've never done it again, there's no reason to think they will) but instead they kept them in the fluff and gave them rules in the GHB. They are expanding and updating the range, not replacing it.

4 minutes ago, Xasz said:

Might be a temporary fix, the same way allegiance abilities are handed out in the GHB and overwritten shortly after.

Look at the Silver Tower elves, that's how they do it, not giving two models to a faction and then making them their own thing. Notice how they don't have  a DARKOATH keyword. Darkoath isn't a faction just like skinks aren't a faction themselves.

[Enoby]

I think Darkoath and Slaves to Darkness may end up a bit like the different herds of Beast of Chaos; all in the same book, but with some key differences in how they work. 

[Minis by Night]

3 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I think Darkoath and Slaves to Darkness may end up a bit like the different herds of Beast of Chaos; all in the same book, but with some key differences in how they work. 

The way I see it, they'll bundle Everchosen, Slaves and Marauder/Darkoath together in a single book, and give them both a general allegiance and sub-faction allegiances. Maybe expend on the Mark of Chaos idea for variety, and release 3 or 4 new Darkoath units to add some flexibility in gameplay. The new book and models will generate the hype to boost sales, and they just saved two dead factions. Time to invest in GW stocks.

[Xasz]

I'm happy as long as they are retiring those atrocious Marauder models and Archaon finally gets his place (army) as our lord and maaaaassssttterr.

I can see a big book as well, with some sub-factions restrictions probably.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Xasz

[Sleboda]

40 minutes ago, AshCrow said:

Again, if they were going to do that, they have had every oportunity to do it, they could have sqautted them along the Tomb Kings (it's been 2 years already and they've never done it again, there's no reason to think they will) 

Which, if you go back to my post, was the whole point. The AoS with an AoS idea.

Nobody thought they had it within them to have this huge End Times event after decades of built up WFB lore, and yet they trashed 90% of it along with them entirety of the rules (no matter how current/recent those rules were). We all thought End Times was a shake up, not an obliteration. Destroy the old world? Sure, maybe. Destroy the game system, entire model ranges, and nearly all the lore (if you had your Empire army painted in Overland colors and heraldry, suddenly there was no Averland ... or even an Empire ... so have fun fitting that into Azyr or whatever and explaining it to a new AoS gamer) ... unthinkable.

My whole dangded point is that they've done it before, and it would not shock for them so do it again, only this time to a single army rather than a whole system.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Sleboda

[Enoby]

To get back to some rumours, it's quite interesting to note that the new harpist's claw does not fit the bill for the claw in the rumour engine (the drawn thumb is too long and no spikes on the edge) and GW art tends to show models very accurately, thus it's safe to assume that this claw belongs to something else.  

[Overread]

Don't forget AoS at launch and the end of the Old World was done under a totally different management team and set of objectives. It's very clear that AoS today is a totally different beast. That's why they are slipping back in some old characters, why they've improved the lore; putting out character based stories that are not just Stormcast VS chaos etc.... Basically the whole focus has changed. It wouldn't shock me if there are people in GW who would like to sweep AoS under the carpet and bring back the Old World; but it won't happen. Plus AoS is selling strongly now and can establish itself. It's just its first year and a bit of life was a rough nasty start under the wrong focus with no real eye to what the market actually wanted. 

 

So I think GW will be careful with removing factions, I think they'd be far more apt to combine, merge and adjust rather than remove stuff. At least major factions that are already supported now. I'd not be surprised to see factions with 2 or 3 models to their name vanish or get merged, but I'd be surprised if they start retiring stuff outright now. It would start to send the wrong messages and AoS, whilst its selling well, is still in a precarious position. 

[ManlyMuppet88]

3 hours ago, Enoby said:

To get back to some rumours, it's quite interesting to note that the new harpist's claw does not fit the bill for the claw in the rumour engine (the drawn thumb is too long and no spikes on the edge) and GW art tends to show models very accurately, thus it's safe to assume that this claw belongs to something else.  

Wouldn’t totally rule it out though, their Nightvault art has been a pretty different to the models.

[Waiyuren]

6 hours ago, Minis by Night said:

The way I see it, they'll bundle Everchosen, Slaves and Marauder/Darkoath together in a single book, and give them both a general allegiance and sub-faction allegiances. Maybe expend on the Mark of Chaos idea for variety, and release 3 or 4 new Darkoath units to add some flexibility in gameplay. The new book and models will generate the hype to boost sales, and they just saved two dead factions. Time to invest in GW stocks.

Do you think they'll do marks the same way they've done it for Beasts, in battalions?

I wouldn't mind it that way; undivided is conceptually badass and the four gods have their own mortals, but in saying that, playing an army on the path toward becoming those god-marked mortals would be cool too, and could be flavoured differently enough to make it an attractive alternative to a fully god-marked force.

[Greyshadow]

Thanks for the heads up @carnith and fair comment @firebat, I may go and buy some more Chaos Warriors as I wouldn't mind bulking out my existing models with another 10 to match the first lot. Still, if the updated models are half as good as the Varanguard  maybe I should wait. 

[Skreech Verminking]

7 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Which, if you go back to my post, was the whole point. The AoS with an AoS idea.

Nobody thought they had it within them to have this huge End Times event after decades of built up WFB lore, and yet they trashed 90% of it along with them entirety of the rules (no matter how current/recent those rules were). We all thought End Times was a shake up, not an obliteration. Destroy the old world? Sure, maybe. Destroy the game system, entire model ranges, and nearly all the lore (if you had your Empire army painted in Overland colors and heraldry, suddenly there was no Averland ... or even an Empire ... so have fun fitting that into Azyr or whatever and explaining it to a new AoS gamer) ... unthinkable.

My whole dangded point is that they've done it before, and it would not shock for them so do it again, only this time to a single army rather than a whole system.

Well I’m. Not sure why Gw would discontinue an army which was represented very strong at the beginning of the lore. Even now Slave to darkness are a might heavily representing the Everchosens Forces.

Also a discontinuation of any army or faction  is rather unthinkable. Possibility is of course that some factions may get the Boc treatment and may loose one of their keywords or gain one more.

As for the old world is destroyed and Averland doesn’t exist anymore, is a stupid way of thinking that your army you painted is invalid.

Yeah maybe Averland doesn’t exist in this World anymore. But still you could keep the color scheme  and say that maybe one of the more greater Hero’s of Averland survived the whole End times, and has built a City in some Realm which now owns the Averlorn name and its old heraldry. Even I’m doing the same thing with my skaven Force, still sticking with one of my favorite clans (clan Mors) and telling a story how Queek Headtaker was revived thanks to the malign portents events that happend (old hero’s gaining a body in the new world).

 

[RuneBrush]

I don't think we need to panic about Slaves to Darkness quite yet.  A couple of boxes that are Temporarily out of stock online doesn't mean the retirement of a whole faction.  Even stock being recalled may be as simple as a reboxing exercise, or we've a replacement model coming out (which would be cool).

With regards to colour schemes, one of the really great things about the mortal realms is that they're massive and only limited by imagination.  There's no reason why there might not be a small city somewhere that's called Aver-lund which follows a yellow themed dress code.  It might "feel" a bit corny, but let's be honest, a cool colour scheme is a cool colour scheme regardless of the setting.

[Rachmani]

No, they'll be gone and Brexit is to bla- ok, ok... I'm with you. I don't see the Slaves of Darkness suddenly disappearing.

I'd rather NOT see them merge with Darkoath, though. Darkoath has the potential (in my opinion anyway) to become one of the most interesting Chaos factions ever. To be more precise: A "Conan the barbarian"-type faction with Frank Franzetta styled barbarians that haggle and argue with their gods, that are proud and fierce (and even caring for their own) - but who have also accepted the Dark Gods as reality. And a reality they worship non the less - but not in the way of those pitiful cultists who cry for blessings and spend more time on their knees than standing. No they worship them, they might swear loyalty but they don't bow easily and they certainly won't bend like some spineless coward.

So to me the Slaves of Darkness are kind of an opposite to the Darkoath. I think that would make for an interesting story.

[stato]

What is with peoples obsession for everything to be ‘completed’ ???   It’s perfectly fine to have StD as a faction, alongside numerous others, just like it’s fine to have lots of small factions of elves. They will get to them eventually. That was the point of AoS, to shake everything up and allow infinite scope for expansion in the future. Half of you seem to want it all finished now and everything tied up nicely with a bow on top.  Yes that might leave factions CURRENTLY with not great options or rules, but even new factions are in that situation.

Edited November 12, 2018 by stato

[Lernaean]

About Darkoath, If what I read so far is accurate and I understand it right, I really love the direction they are taking.

The Darkoath have every right to consider themselves good, or right or being on the right path. Don’t forget that even in the current real world religions, the newer texts are somehow watered down. Now, in the old texts things were totally different. Take the Old Testament’s depictions of the Abrahamic God, or for example the Greek Gods.

They have passions, they may act spiteful or vengeful or literally evil. They will send plagues to the enemies of their people, they will sceme, they will kill and maybe give birth to hideous monsters, but for these people, these were their gods.

Now imagine a barbarian, being born in a society where those are their gods, and guess what? Those gods actually exist. I love the idea of the proud tribesmen that are undeniably Chaos, but can doubt and mock and compete with their gods, and not be completely one dimensional, null, killing machines.

If done right, Darkoath can be one of the most interesting factions in the history of Warhammer. 

[syph0n]

Regarding removing factions, I don't see it. They might consign some bits and pieces to 'Legends' (which I have felt a bit of that sting with some of my Dark Elf models), however, it appears that the lore supports the smaller factions as denizens of the mortal realms. Stuff like the Skycutters are part of the day to life, so are Corsairs etc. I think when a range is truly old, or the models aren't viable to use and therefore no-one is, that's when they tend to go. Or would make the most sense to, though I still think the stuff  they took from the Dark Elves were good models (eg: Sorceress on Drakespawn, Dreadlord on Drakespawn, Dreadlord on Foot - all 2007 models and great sculpts still I think) so perhaps my theory is off the mark.

I think there seems to be a general consensus that a free cities arrangement would work really well to add allegiance stuff to the small factions. I don't personally think this will happen beyond Firestorm-like books, as I'm sure the grand alliance armies are designed to be this way, and that's where part of the fun comes I guess in writing these fluffy lists.

However, I don't think there are rumours one way or another about this in any case? 

[Overread]

Most people expect a free Cities because they can't see GW wanting to flesh out half a dozen further full factions under Order. It's also because people feel Order is big enough as it is and that the range doesn't want too much bloat in it. Add too many factions and GW will lose the long term ability to appease their fans. Even if the rules keep up we'll flip over to where factions never see any new models ever because there's another 40 other factions in the line before them. 

[michu]

I still don't understand why people think that Darkoath's way of worshipping Chaos is something new -  they are basically not-viking Norscan. And there was always said that you can think "I worship Ruinous Powers, but I'm not a slave of darkness", but you're only fooling yourself. Since first day you've prayed to them your soul is lost and damned

[Lernaean]

5 minutes ago, michu said:

I still don't understand why people think that Darkoath's way of worshipping Chaos is something new -  they are basically not-viking Norscan. And there was always said that you can think "I worship Ruinous Powers, but I'm not a slave of darkness", but you're only fooling yourself. Since first day you've prayed to them your soul is lost and damned

I agree. You are not wrong.

Thing is that for too long, GW treated Chaos mortals as iron clad faceless warriors and wasn’t putting any emphasis on the meat and bone of the Norscan hordes.

It’s nothing new. If i’m happy It’s because of the presentation.

[AshCrow]

The thing is, StD is an evolution of that, it's what happens next to the tribes, just like it was to the Norscans. Just like an orc that fights a lot and survives gets bigger and turns into a warboss (one of the reasons why I don't like Ironjawz being separated from the smaller orcs), sometimes a tribsman will wander off seeking the favour of the gods. Sometimes they even return to those tribes and lead them (like Vardek Crom). You can't separate them because they are, essentialy, the same thing. You can't have StD without the tribes that brithed them nor you can have the tribes without the warriors of the gods they worship. That's also why StD are different to the god's specific armies, they aren't cultists, they worship the chaos gods as any tribe would worship their own gods.

And all of this can happen with the tribes having their new Conan aesthetic and the warriors having armour and mutations.

Edited November 12, 2018 by AshCrow

[michu]

This. So much this. No need to squat Chaos Warriors. As @AshCrow said: you start as a brave barbarian that worship mighty gods, wander and conquer, full of optimism (well, at least the "there will be plenty of blood and skulls and glory" one) and ultimately you become an iron clad faceless warrior, full of mutations that is more or less just a tool of destruction... such is your path to "glory".

[Lernaean]

8 minutes ago, michu said:

This. So much this. No need to squat Chaos Warriors. As @AshCrow said: you start as a brave barbarian that worship mighty gods, wander and conquer, full of optimism (well, at least the "there will be plenty of blood and skulls and glory" one) and ultimately you become an iron clad faceless warrior, full of mutations that is more or less just a tool of destruction... such is your path to "glory".

Oh, yes. No one said anything about squating them. Chaos Warriors are iconic. Just saying that the lore has them and the game needs the ‘marauder’ types. The simple tribesmen before they ever became mighty Chaos Warriors.