AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[keen]

When Do you expect the Lady of Vines and the Gossamid Archers to be available separately from the starter box?

I am not interested into the rest of the models of the box and i guess it will also be hard to sell.

[Arzalyn]

3 hours ago, keen said:

When Do you expect the Lady of Vines and the Gossamid Archers to be available separately from the starter box?

I am not interested into the rest of the models of the box and i guess it will also be hard to sell.

Nowadays GW tend to release them together with the book. So the waiting time should be the gap between the duel box and the book release.

[Jaskier]

That would explain why Eddie said we'll see the Sylvaneth sooner than we think; the dual box will probably arrive in the next few weeks, and the full tome and models release will come a month or more down the road. 

[Lanoss]

[acr0ssth3p0nd]

49 minutes ago, Lanoss said:

Oof. 4+ to hit is still a thing, Huntsmaster got hit on their attacks boost now only being melee, and Envoys got a nerf, too. At least the now damage is a flat 2 and the 3+ save is now baked in.

Fingers crossed that our Allegiance Abilities have been boosted, at least.

[Craze]

56 minutes ago, Lanoss said:

Ok, so Champion is just a joke, wtf. We have 6 shooting attacks from which on average 2 will pass the wound roll and one gets saved, so impressive 2 Damage per shooting phase for 255 points...that sounds BAD. 😕

 

Apart from that I think that Envoys is no nerf, more to the contrary. Yes the bubble is smaller, but it allows us to use multiple AAA/AAD per fight, and if you have more than one Hunter unit than it can start to get ridiculous very fast, while I guess that it will get FAQed as soon as the book hits that this can only be used once per issueing a command.

[Jaskier]

Obviously it's too early to say just how good the unit will be considering we know nothing about allegiance rules and potential synergies, but Kurnoths staying at a 4+ to-hit is super disappointing, especially after seeing the cool new Revenant archers. However, going to a 3+ save is really strong; a unit of three counts as six models on objectives (five wounds each) and can boost to a 2+ if in cover or through commands/spells/etc, that's going to be really hard to shift off objectives. 

[JackStreicher]

Guys it’s the same with all new boiks: Lackluster Warscrolls but strong allegiance Abilities. In the end Sylvaneth will be fine

[The World Tree]

Honestly, I'd rather long range shooting be on the weaker end. The game is better for it.

[Arzalyn]

7 hours ago, Lanoss said:

So build-in +1 save, better damage characteristic (less random), but their main problem (attack profile) is the same. They have a niche as a resilient long reach artillery, but unless there is something in our allegiances to further buff them I imagine we gonna see the Gossamid more than them.

I wouldn't say Envoys is a nerf, probably more of a side grade. The general 3rd edition patter is taking out most of the command abilities factions had, so I doubt we gonna have more than one warscroll command on the new book, if any. Of the 6 general commands, we get to duplicate the two that most used ones. The 4+ makes it a little unreliable, but if I'm not mistaken the final wording means you can stack the +1 to save from all out defense if you pick the same unit. Staking +1 to hit is more niche, but spreading it to multiple units is interesting.

What is interesting is that the Swords and Scythes warscrolls shouldn't be too different from this one. As long as they don't make them cost a million points, the changes we see here are much more interesting for them.

[mojojojo101]

I get that we don't want long range shooting to be too good but even at 30" range I just don't think a unit that costs 255 points and can't reliably kill support heroes that don't have a save just isn't going to see play.

New Envoys is cool but it being on a 4+ relegated it from being actually good to a nice bonus on the chance it goes off.

I'm not writing them off before we see the whole book but for me that profile doesn't change their value against the other Kurnoth Hunter variants at all, if anything it goes down because you can get shooting from elsewhere now.

[Frowny]

The bow hunters seem terrible, but with those stat boosts, the sword or scythe hunters seem great. Base 3+ save allows the all important 2+ save stacking, and the extra all out defence i think is actually deceptively strong. 

At least currently, I use all out defence every single turn on something, usually monster with a 3+. Now i get 2-3 free uses of it per game per squad of hunters, which i probably want anyway. Excellent! 

Also note that it is not wholly within, and most commonly, could be issued to themselves.

[The World Tree]

Good spot. the 3+ save is huge. Especially with both wyldwoods and the built in save boost (they will almost never want to pile in 3).

With such resilience it means we could well get 4-5 turns of shooting out of them. 

Not to mention our best current list uses them.

 

[Rhetoric]

Show me the Durthu scroll 

[maitremage]

6 minutes ago, Rhetoric said:

Show me the Durthu scroll 

I can't wait for it ! And I also really want the Lady's scroll too ^^

[Frowny]

1 hour ago, The World Tree said:

Good spot. the 3+ save is huge. Especially with both wyldwoods and the built in save boost (they will almost never want to pile in 3)

 

Note also that they can still pile in and keep their 3+ which is also definitely useful, especially with bigger units.

I don't see any rules for extra reach or increased coherency so units of 6 are probably left to just the scythes.

[EntMan]

Hello, please could someone tell me if the Treelord in the start collecting box is the full deal, ie. with all the same sprues and build options (e.g. treelord ancient, or Durthu) as I'd get if I bought it separately?

[pixieproxy]

56 minutes ago, EntMan said:

Hello, please could someone tell me if the Treelord in the start collecting box is the full deal, ie. with all the same sprues and build options (e.g. treelord ancient, or Durthu) as I'd get if I bought it separately?

It is indeed, it's all on the same sprue(s)

[EntMan]

3 minutes ago, pixieproxy said:

It is indeed, it's all on the same sprue(s)

Thanks. I thought I'd better check before getting it. Webstore doesn't show the SC sprues.

I got the SCE start collecting a while back and the build options are... minimal.

[Walkirriox]

Hey guys! I have tested the new archers in a 1000p match against DOK few hours ago, and they were awesome. I played them out of the game with tree revenants, both do a good tp combo. You summon a wyldwood where you need them, make them tp at 12” from the target, then put a layer of Tree revs in front to protect them. Their shooting + Drycha shooting is devastating (lots of mw), then you can charge with tree revs to finish your target off or let them protect your precious archers and release hell to safety. With this como I destroyed a hag queen chariot.

I think they are a fantastic addition to our army. If you try them too, please share your insights!

[Frowny]

I almost think you want them as the screen themselves. Make a wall 3 inches from them to shut off movement, then when they charge you, spend the cp and retreat 15 inches away, out of all charge range. Just making sure you always spend the cp for unleash to retreat.

They are really really expensive per wound though so even d3 mw from a charging thing hurts

[Aezeal]

10 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

So build-in +1 save, better damage characteristic (less random), but their main problem (attack profile) is the same. They have a niche as a resilient long reach artillery, but unless there is something in our allegiances to further buff them I imagine we gonna see the Gossamid more than them.

I wouldn't say Envoys is a nerf, probably more of a side grade. The general 3rd edition patter is taking out most of the command abilities factions had, so I doubt we gonna have more than one warscroll command on the new book, if any. Of the 6 general commands, we get to duplicate the two that most used ones. The 4+ makes it a little unreliable, but if I'm not mistaken the final wording means you can stack the +1 to save from all out defense if you pick the same unit. Staking +1 to hit is more niche, but spreading it to multiple units is interesting.

What is interesting is that the Swords and Scythes warscrolls shouldn't be too different from this one. As long as they don't make them cost a million points, the changes we see here are much more interesting for them.

9 hours ago, The World Tree said:

Good spot. the 3+ save is huge. Especially with both wyldwoods and the built in save boost (they will almost never want to pile in 3).

With such resilience it means we could well get 4-5 turns of shooting out of them. 

Not to mention our best current list uses them.

 

EDIT

The build in +1 save explains the price hike but is much less relevant for the archers.

The envoys change is a nerve IMHO unless the TLA losses his CA which would be another rather major nerve for the army (ceteris paribus obviously). 

All in all I'm pretty sure the bow hunters are nerved  since you loose usefull things for shooters (points increase, no effect of the champ on shooting and backline CA spreading and don't get much in return they can really use), their damage output was already too low at the lower point value unless you had a complete build around. 

I'm not even sure the melee hunters are much better off, if they get a similar increase in points (though +1 attack for the champ will mean a small increase in damage output especially with all out attack). While they where the best we had they wheren't even overpowered to some hard hitters in other armies, I think that if they are more expensive in points I'd rather have had more damage output than even more toughness.

Damage output comparison isn't that easy between the archers due to range difference and toughness.  The extra attack of the champ, the MW output and the volume of the attacks are in their favor and outweigh the -1 rend of the hunters. Of their output will drop significantly if something just looks at them... not having a CP in the enemy turn just isn't an option due to it ofc but they are prime magic and shooting targets themselves. Still: damage output is something I prefer. How many gossamids you could resurrect with the spell will matter too.. getting D3 of these back would be nice and would be worth casting (usually casting it on the 1 wound models doesn't seem worth it)

I wonder if shooting strats will really be viable for our army in the new book. Unless there are other parameters (changes in wargroves, CA or magic or some ward save options) I'm not convinced atm.

PS : Less about the rules but more about the lore: Am I the only one who thinks giving the teleporting 'race' flying bug backpacks hardly makes sense? Putting 2 of those bugs on a Kurnoth to make it fly seems a smarter move (especially since allariele could basicly just create anything so a single bigger flying bugbackpack for them should even be an option).

Edited May 8, 2022 by Aezeal

[Aezeal]

9 hours ago, The World Tree said:

Good spot. the 3+ save is huge. Especially with both wyldwoods and the built in save boost (they will almost never want to pile in 3).

With such resilience it means we could well get 4-5 turns of shooting out of them. 

Not to mention our best current list uses them.

 

Nevermind. Still don't think the 3+ is worth a point increase for archers though. Piling in 3 doesn't matter anymore on the new warscroll it seems.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Aezeal

[Arzalyn]

5 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

The build in +1 save explains the price hike but is much less relevant for the archers; also the loss of the reroll all saves option is a loss too. 

The envoys change is a nerve IMHO unless the TLA losses his CA which would be another rather major nerve for the army (ceteris paribus obviously). If we loose the TLA CA getting the reroll 1's (which was less important for the hunters before) will mean the hunters wil not be much more resiliant at all without mystic shield.

Well they lost reroll saves for almost a year now, when the 3rd first FAQs dropped. I agree the melee versions will make better use of the 3+, specially if you can use a hero to issue all out defense to them and choose themselves for the envoy target. It would be a cool way to make them have a 2+ save while reducing rend.

Don't expect the ancient to keep it's ability (which by the way became +1 save aura rather than reroll since the 3rd faq). Most of the 3rd edition tomes have lost the majority of the hero warscroll abilities. It's much more common to see abilities like the envoys, that modify how you can use the generic ones with some kind of bonus/twist or for free.

[Aezeal]

24 minutes ago, Arzalyn said:

Well they lost reroll saves for almost a year now, when the 3rd first FAQs dropped. I agree the melee versions will make better use of the 3+, specially if you can use a hero to issue all out defense to them and choose themselves for the envoy target. It would be a cool way to make them have a 2+ save while reducing rend.

Don't expect the ancient to keep it's ability (which by the way became +1 save aura rather than reroll since the 3rd faq). Most of the 3rd edition tomes have lost the majority of the hero warscroll abilities. It's much more common to see abilities like the envoys, that modify how you can use the generic ones with some kind of bonus/twist or for free.

Lol I've not been playing a lot last months and now you mention it I actually remember all this being changed before that.. but now I started playing again I just looked at the pink entries in the errata and didnt' remember this and my opponents didn't know either apparently. (Not sure if I had an unfair advantage or disadvantage in my last 2 games... I'm leaning toward disadvantage).

Changes the math in my post a bit though especially for melee hunters, still not sure I like trading more points for higher toughness ... I want higher damage output/point .

Edited May 8, 2022 by Aezeal