AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Prometheo567]

I didn't read it like that but yeah, it's an unfair advantage, specially with army terrain being points-free.

[Maximum]

I thought that the thing with the eyes and the tentacles that I saw in the video was the terrain of Tzeentch, instead nothing.

 

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

1 hour ago, LordPrometheus said:

I'm hoping for that as well, but I was specifically talking about why some armies in the game just don't get terrain at all. It's a huge buff, and if you're going to give it to some of them, why not all of them?

Personally I think they should’ve been used much less extensively. And no, terrain pieces aren’t a simple buff or at least not more then any other allegiance trait, they are simple another allegiance trait. Destiny dice is super strong so it makes sense we don’t have one. But on the other hand the other chaos gods have them. So I expect our endless spells to be Uber op to make up for it lmao.

And we all know that just having one doesn’t make an army top tier, looking at you beasts of chaos (and theirs is actually pretty strong, minus one to saves it amazing). In fact terrain users are all over the spectrum.

also doesn’t anyone think it’s weird that every battle khorne is in they just so happened to construct the altar? Some of the terrain pieces seem weird to have in every scenario. Goblins only fight near their lair and no where else. It’s all so strange for the ones that aren’t magically created.

[Landohammer]

1 hour ago, LordPrometheus said:

I'm hoping for that as well, but I was specifically talking about why some armies in the game just don't get terrain at all. It's a huge buff, and if you're going to give it to some of them, why not all of them?

 

1 hour ago, Prometheo567 said:

To me, the fact that none of the armies army was shown with a terrain piece actually gives me hope that they simply haven't shown said pieces in the article. 

 

So my main army is Sylvaneth, and let me tell you that faction terrain is overrated. Its expensive, generally doesn't contribute much, and is a pain to transport. 

Also, tournaments tend to overcrowd tables with terrain making it exceedingly difficult to place it anywhere meaningful. 

One of my biggest issues with AOS nowadays is the entourage of models you have to carry with you for competitive play. You have to carry endless spells, models to summon, and faction terrain (sometimes in multiples!). All of which have the potential to never see play.

 

 

[LordPrometheus]

1 minute ago, Landohammer said:

 

 

So my main army is Sylvaneth, and let me tell you that faction terrain is overrated. Its expensive, generally doesn't contribute much, and is a pain to transport. 

Also, tournaments tend to overcrowd tables with terrain making it exceedingly difficult to place it anywhere meaningful. 

One of my biggest issues with AOS nowadays is the entourage of models you have to carry with you for competitive play. You have to carry endless spells, models to summon, and faction terrain (sometimes in multiples!). All of which have the potential to never see play.

 

 

Sylvaneth is a bit of a different animal, because the faction is literally built around their terrain. I do agree about overcrowded tables. Trying to get woods down in good locations is a crapshoot.

[Landohammer]

1 hour ago, LordPrometheus said:

Sylvaneth is a bit of a different animal, because the faction is literally built around their terrain. I do agree about overcrowded tables. Trying to get woods down in good locations is a crapshoot.

So I could write a novel on why the Wyldwoods are a problem mechanically, but at least the terrain fits in with the fluff of the army. However most of the other faction terrain just feel like they were tacked on as a cash grab. I can see Alarielle summoning a woods on a battlefield, but are Slaanesh followers gonna haul around a mirror the size of a building?  Do Khornates take the time to construct an altar when battle is imminent? 

They really only benefit their faction under a specific set of circumstances and are more often than not forgotten about/disregarded early on in games. I feel like Tzeentch terrain would have been similar. I imagine we would have got a $50 giant bird statue that lets you reroll 1's to cast while wholly within 6 inches" or something similar.

I wish the time/money/talent had went into creating more units.  

[Sinfullyvannila]

10 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

So I could write a novel on why the Wyldwoods are a problem mechanically, but at least the terrain fits in with the fluff of the army. However most of the other faction terrain just feel like they were tacked on as a cash grab. I can see Alarielle summoning a woods on a battlefield, but are Slaanesh followers gonna haul around a mirror the size of a building?  Do Khornates take the time to construct an altar when battle is imminent? 

They really only benefit their faction under a specific set of circumstances and are more often than not forgotten about/disregarded early on in games. I feel like Tzeentch terrain would have been similar. I imagine we would have got a $50 giant bird statue that lets you reroll 1's to cast while wholly within 6 inches" or something similar.

I wish the time/money/talent had went into creating more units.  

I don’t entirely disagree with you but I am going to point out that historically,  nomadic cultures would have pre-constructed altars that they would assemble before battle. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

I changed my mind on what i said about Tzaangors earlier. I think they’ll probably just change their warscroll to make models with shields and the ones with two weapons that aren’t mutants be mechanically the same. Just give the model the shrug if it contains any number of models with hand weapons.

[Grimrock]

33 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I don’t entirely disagree with you but I am going to point out that historically,  nomadic cultures would have pre-constructed altars that they would assemble before battle. 

Also the fluff covers khorne at least. Apparently the chaotic corruption caused by the gathering of Khorne's forces causes the altars to just kind of... Come up out of the ground. Along with the more typical cracks, spikes, lava, rivers of blood, etc. 

More on topic, faction terrain or the lack of it really isn't an advantage in and of itself. Speaking of khorne, their terrain is pretty strong by allowing prayer rerolls and debuffing nearby wizards but those rules could have just been added to the normal list of allegiance abilities. Take slaves to darkness, their auras are tied to heroes but could have easily just been tied to a terrain piece instead. Having it on terrain or heroes or as part of a battalion or command ability... It's all the same thing in the end. What matters is if the army as a whole is balanced/strong or not. Honestly not having terrain can be seen as a huge plus because you don't have to drop a bunch of time and money on a kit just so you can access your allegiance ability.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Grimrock

[Landohammer]

1 hour ago, Grimrock said:

Also the fluff covers khorne at least. Apparently the chaotic corruption caused by the gathering of Khorne's forces causes the altars to just kind of... Come up out of the ground. Along with the more typical cracks, spikes, lava, rivers of blood, etc. 

More on topic, faction terrain or the lack of it really isn't an advantage in and of itself. Speaking of khorne, their terrain is pretty strong by allowing prayer rerolls and debuffing nearby wizards but those rules could have just been added to the normal list of allegiance abilities. Take slaves to darkness, their auras are tied to heroes but could have easily just been tied to a terrain piece instead. Having it on terrain or heroes or as part of a battalion or command ability... It's all the same thing in the end. What matters is if the army as a whole is balanced/strong or not. Honestly not having terrain can be seen as a huge plus because you don't have to drop a bunch of time and money on a kit just so you can access your allegiance ability.

Exactly. They essentially just pulled an allegiance/general buff out of the army and put it on something you have to buy. 

Khorne may have been a bad example since they do have some strange tendencies to build brass stuff. Deepkin, Gloomspite, Ogors, and Slaanesh are more obvious offenders when it comes to spontaneous terrain generation. 

[Satyrical Sophist]

3 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Exactly. They essentially just pulled an allegiance/general buff out of the army and put it on something you have to buy. 

Khorne may have been a bad example since they do have some strange tendencies to build brass stuff. Deepkin, Gloomspite, Ogors, and Slaanesh are more obvious offenders when it comes to spontaneous terrain generation. 

Deepkin is meant to be a representation of the weird stuff pulled along with them in the aethersea I think. The ogor one also makes sense to me since I can definitely see ogors always dragging a massive cook pot along with them. 

I think Gloomspite and Slaanesh would make more sense if it was a more general thing. The fane might not make sense, but a hoard of slaanesh would. If the loonshrine was more of a shanty town style shrine then it'd be easier to imagine them carrying it with them. That said since the gloomspite always follow their moon then you already have built in goblin weirdness, I guess their scouts spend all their time fashioning a crude loonshrine rather than reporting back,

 

[AverageBoss]

9 hours ago, Prometheo567 said:

I didn't read it like that but yeah, it's an unfair advantage, specially with army terrain being points-free.

Terrain is free points wise just like any other allegiance ability. Everyone does not need to have terrain to be balanced with each other. There are plenty of ways to balance an allegiance around having or not having one.

[CJPT]

Very happy to not have terrain, personally. It's a pain to transport, as others have said, and personally I find the terrain placement part of the game to be somewhat immersion-breaking. Armies deploying to take advantage of the magical properties of the battlefield feels right to me - players trying to find space to squeeze in an obelisk or shrine or shipwreck that their army just happened to bring with them doesn't. Lovely models, for the most part, but I'm far happy having them as scatter pieces than as game pieces.

[Starfyre]

Scenery and endless spells... it's like, at one point, every army was getting them. Very few don't. This is why it feels slightly strange when one army doesn't get one (or either, in the case of the Kharadron Overlords). There's an expectation set - I was adamant that the Slaves to Darkness would get one, the big chaos ring from Chaos Space Marines could have even been made with the option to be used for both armies, but I was surprised when they didn't. Again, given how armies like Khorne and Fyreslayers have been given their own versions of endless spells, surprised that KO don't get an equivalent. 

For me, it's so much as it's losing out by not having them, it's an expectation being set initially to then not being carried all the way through, that makes it surprising there isn't an option. 

Whether an army gets scenery or endless spells or not is not a question of fluff or rules. Scenery and endless spells are simply up-sells for hobbyists. Some may already have everything for their collection, so releasing a piece of scenery and endless spells is simply a way to get them spending some more money. For newbies, it increases the average cost of an army. The rules and fluff are simply made around the models that are going to be released. 

I'm pretty excited to see the Tzeentch preview this week after the good stuff in the KO one. 

[GeneralZero]

1 hour ago, Starfyre said:

I'm pretty excited to see the Tzeentch preview this week after the good stuff in the KO one. 

I'm expecting it today tbh. Fingers crossed.

[peasant]

25 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

I'm expecting it today tbh. Fingers crossed.

I think not today

[Satyrical Sophist]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/02/faction-focus-disciples-of-tzeentch/

 

Article up, horrors changed a lot.

[MattyP]

well, i'm even more excited for the update. The changes to horror splitting seem cool, and more in line with lore...but they went up in price. I like the sound of the sub-factions and the hidden agendas seem cool too. I'm still hoping that flamers, screamers, and chariots got better, but all the stuff in the article seems very positive to me!

[GeneralZero]

3 minutes ago, MattyP said:

The changes to horror splitting seem cool

 

3 minutes ago, MattyP said:

flamers, screamers, and chariots got better etc...,

At least, several things seem to make the tzeentch daemon SC (super) good deal.

The fate point cost of the chariot let me beleive that it will not be lame (almost the cost of pink horrors!).

All the article make tzeentch more "special", closer to lore. 

On the dark side: I'll probably have to get a second (even more) LoC 😞

lol

[Poryague]

16 minutes ago, MattyP said:

well, i'm even more excited for the update. The changes to horror splitting seem cool, and more in line with lore...but they went up in price. I like the sound of the sub-factions and the hidden agendas seem cool too. I'm still hoping that flamers, screamers, and chariots got better, but all the stuff in the article seems very positive to me!

The flamers, exalted flamer, and chariot got better in the conflagration at least access to rend 1 for shooting is great for them. It seems like flamers will be battline in that one. This is an improvement even if it is in this specific host.  This makes it more likely to melt units with warpfire. 

[Gesundheit]

Hopefully they got rend 1 and ist just increased by 1!😕 otherwise they are still ******.....

Edited January 2, 2020 by Gesundheit

[Poryague]

8 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Hopefully the got rend 1 and ist just increased by 1!😕 otherwise they are still ******.....

Well flamers warscroll wise unfortunatly I don't see them getting rend 1.  Only getting to rend 1  in the conflagration host is an improvement.  If both happened they would be rend 2 for shooting I really dont see that happening even though it would be cool if it did.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Poryague

[Qaz]

16 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Hopefully they got rend 1 and ist just increased by 1!😕 otherwise they are still ******.....

Rend 2 is artillery level shooting though. Thats asking for a lot imo.  Magical Flames are horrors missile attacks right? So in conflagration, it gives an army wide rend p1 missile attacks. That's already pretty strong.

I think the Tzaangors and their brethren are unlikely to change from their update in BoC. If so, would Locus of Change (-1 to hit in combat) on Enlightened Tzaangors make a good unit even better? Especially if Fold Reality sticks around. 🤔

 

[Poryague]

11 minutes ago, Qaz said:

Rend 2 is artillery level shooting though. Thats asking for a lot imo.  Magical Flames are horrors missile attacks right? So in conflagration, it gives an army wide rend p1 missile attacks. That's already pretty strong.

I think the Tzaangors and their brethren are unlikely to change from their update in BoC. If so, would Locus of Change (-1 to hit in combat) on Enlightened Tzaangors make a good unit even better? Especially if Fold Reality sticks around. 🤔

 

Magical flame is pinks, blues, and brimstone shooting attack. So yeah army wide rend 1 shooting. 

[Poryague]

"Every time a Pink Horror is slain, you add two Blue Horrors to the unit. Every time a Blue Horror is slain, you get a base of Brimstone Horrors."

this sounds like pink, blues and brimstone will all be in the same unit rather then different units. Intresting mixed unit. If true.