AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Grotruk]

16 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

I find the new Curseling to be a super good warscroll. Not only is he a great looking model but he seems to be a great candidate for Arcanite General. Good armor save, good melee, 2cast, I'd even take the spell to pass wounds on a 3+,. Feels like it makes him very durable.

Regarding spell, when you have a 2cast wizard, can you actually pick 2 spells from your lore or you can only pick 1 spell and your other spell is your warscroll spell (or generic)? 

 I'm asking because on Warscroll Builder, I can only include 1 spell in the list, even tho he's a 2cast wizard.

It's only one lore spell per wizard (excepting special rules, of course)

[Frai23]

19 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

Going to chuck this idea into a Guild list instead and run it on TTS. Could be fun for a friendly game, probably took much book keeping for a tournie. 

Sidenote: if you have Kairos and Changeling, plus 10 Kairics, this nicely fits into x2 Battle regiment battalions, plus 205 pts for endless spells. 

I want to point out that the summoned Lords of Change must be set up wholly within 9" of a Arcanite Hero. If your single cursling gets sniped, which might even happen Turn 1 you won't be able to summon a single one!

(Edit: provided you'll change the Changeling for a Curseling)

Edited September 29, 2022 by Frai23

[RUNCMD]

3 hours ago, Frai23 said:

I want to point out that the summoned Lords of Change must be set up wholly within 9" of a Arcanite Hero. If your single cursling gets sniped, which might even happen Turn 1 you won't be able to summon a single one!

(Edit: provided you'll change the Changeling for a Curseling)

Seriously, Arcanite only? I don't have the new book, i've only seen the references online and on youtube, each one of which hasn't mentioned this. 

If that's the case, I'm thoroughly disappointed. The list was a cheese/joke list anyway, there's other ways to get the LOCs, but man, yeah if you're right that seriously sucks.

[Grotruk]

44 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

Seriously, Arcanite only? I don't have the new book, i've only seen the references online and on youtube, each one of which hasn't mentioned this. 

If that's the case, I'm thoroughly disappointed. The list was a cheese/joke list anyway, there's other ways to get the LOCs, but man, yeah if you're right that seriously sucks.

I confirm. And Gaunt Summoner isn't Arcanite anymore. If you really want to run GOS,  you'll probably have to play with at least 2 Arcanites heroes (Magister on disc should be one of the better choices)
Hard to know if the issue is too big. We will see.

[MitGas]

Had a better look at it now and I found some cool stuff I think.... I think you can stack rend on Kairic Acolytes (even the acolyte units can buff one of theirs)! That means they can get to -2 rend in a pyrofane cult comfortably, if you wanna be insane, you could have a unit of 30 and a unit of 10 and have the unit of 10 buff the blob of 30 so that they get -3 rend! Imagine a unit of 30, 30 bolts of -3 and 60+ attacks (paired cursed blades are now 2 attacks at 3+/3+, even without Fatemaster.....) with -3 rend.

I gotta crunch some numbers but this unit is a blender now! Very fragile but deadly. Truly a worthy marauder successor and might even outperform Enlightened...

Also, I really like the updated Curseling and Ogroid and think both of them really are valid choices now. Guild of Summoners becomes amazing with some heroes generating fate points too and chickens only costing 18 FPs from the second one onwards.

Enlightened and Skyfires are still good. I'm pretty happy with the new BT overall. The only thing I lament is that the Gaunt Summoner on foot, who might be my favorite AoS model, is a rather bad pick.

Screamers are a good unit finally too. With slashing fins working multiple times, you can move over units and charge them then, so you get the effect at least two times per round!

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by MitGas

[JackStreicher]

*Wrong chat*

Edited September 29, 2022 by JackStreicher

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, MitGas said:

Had a better look at it now and I found some cool stuff I think.... I think you can stack rend on Kairic Acolytes (even the acolyte units can buff one of theirs)! That means they can get to -2 rend in a pyrofane cult comfortably, if you wanna be insane, you could have a unit of 30 and a unit of 10 and have the unit of 10 buff the blob of 30 so that they get -3 rend! Imagine a unit of 30, 30 bolts of -3 and 60+ attacks (paired cursed blades are now 2 attacks at 3+/3+, even without Fatemaster.....) with -3 rend.

Hmm...but can you fit a unit of 30 ww a unit of 10? And if you could fit a unit of 30 whats to stop you from trying to fit multiple units of 10? I feel like its not intended to work that way

[Duke of Mousillon]

May I just add because i have seen it mentioned twice now. The "new" Curseling warscroll is our old curseling warscroll with a little beter fighting stats. They just have undone their god knows why warscroll changes from the Tzeentch-Highelves box. 

Yes the new curseling rules are cool. That is because the old rules were cool but now he has a better safe. 

I am still baffled by GW changing the warscrools for the boxset only just to make the high elves look better wizards then us and tzeentch melee focused.

[Duke of Mousillon]

2 hours ago, MitGas said:

60+ attacks (paired cursed blades are now 2 attacks at 3+/3+, even without Fatemaster.....) with -3 rend.

You are aware that the spell of Kairics only improves the rend characteristics of sorcerous bolts and not melee weapons?

I am afraid you will not outperform the Tzaangor half of the book in melee with Kairic Acolytes. Which is good. Because that's all the Tzaangor half contributes.

[MitGas]

19 minutes ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

You are aware that the spell of Kairics only improves the rend characteristics of sorcerous bolts and not melee weapons?

I am afraid you will not outperform the Tzaangor half of the book in melee with Kairic Acolytes. Which is good. Because that's all the Tzaangor half contributes.

hmmm, you're absolutely right .... Still, 30 shots at rend -3  is still evil! I'll always be a huge fan of Enlightened, especially at their old/lower cost. 

 

27 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Hmm...but can you fit a unit of 30 ww a unit of 10? And if you could fit a unit of 30 whats to stop you from trying to fit multiple units of 10? I feel like its not intended to work that way

Well, Kairic's spell can now buff any Kairic unit, so you can buff one unit multiple times to make their rend stronger.... that's why I suggested to take a huge one that gets buffed multiple times instead of lots of small ones. At least if you wanna get to -3 rend.

If you want -2 rend, then go pyrofane and do their spell. Might be the better option usually, but -3 rend vs elite armies (I think of armies like Ironjawz) with great armor is just twisted.

[Duke of Mousillon]

1 hour ago, MitGas said:

If you want -2 rend, then go pyrofane and do their spell. Might be the better option usually, but -3 rend vs elite armies (I think of armies like Ironjawz) with great armor is just twisted.

I am afraid you must be mistaking again. The Pyrofane Cult does not increase their rend. Pyrofane Cult adds 1 to their hit rolls with their ranged attack.

[Beliman]

I'm not following the strategy.

• Warscroll spell to increase from -1 rend to -2 rend (+1to cast with scroll, +1 to cast near a LoC).
• +1 to hit with Pyrofane Cult for a 3+/3+/-2/1 18! profile with mw on 5+

But to reach that "extra" -1 rend, what do you need to do? Arcanite Suggestion or Purple Sun maybe?

[Jaskier]

20 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

I find the new Curseling to be a super good warscroll. Not only is he a great looking model but he seems to be a great candidate for Arcanite General. Good armor save, good melee, 2cast, I'd even take the spell to pass wounds on a 3+,. Feels like it makes him very durable.

Regarding spell, when you have a 2cast wizard, can you actually pick 2 spells from your lore or you can only pick 1 spell and your other spell is your warscroll spell (or generic)? 

 I'm asking because on Warscroll Builder, I can only include 1 spell in the list, even tho he's a 2cast wizard.

Basically it doesn't matter how many spells you can cast, you only ever get to pick 1 extra spell from a spell lore per wizard unless specified otherwise (main exceptions are things like Nagash, Kairos, etc that know entire spell lores.) 

[Ganigumo]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

I'm not following the strategy.

• Warscroll spell to increase from -1 rend to -2 rend (+1to cast with scroll, +1 to cast near a LoC).
• +1 to hit with Pyrofane Cult for a 3+/3+/-2/1 18! profile with mw on 5+

But to reach that "extra" -1 rend, what do you need to do? Arcanite Suggestion or Purple Sun maybe?

You can target the same unit with the spell multiple times. The warscroll spell targets a kairic acolyte unit wholly within 9", not itself.
The base rend is 0 too, but if you brought 3 units of kairics as battleline, with one unit of 30, you could possibly have all 3 cast the spell on the unit of 30, giving it -3 rend.
You could stack purple suns, arcane suggestions and herald spells on top.
Its a cute strat but it feels like kairic damage is too low to jump through all those hoops for.

My biggest beef after reading the warscrolls is that the Gaunt summoner is a daemon and not an arcanite. It makes the "biggest" arcanite hero the curseling I guess? which feels wierd. They don't need a physical centerpiece, but the gaunt summoner was a perfect narrative one.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Ganigumo

[Duke of Mousillon]

4 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

It makes the "biggest" arcanite hero the curseling I guess?

This. This makes me so dissapointed. The thing is. The curseling has always been awesome in my opinion. But that was because he was that unique twisted heroe right. Now he is just one of many similar leaders of tzeentchs mortal armies. He shoudlnt just be a generic tzeentch hero. But I guess I prayed for new mortal tzeentch models fleshing out our mortal half. This is now the tzeentch chaos lord/sorcerer lord. I should've known what happens when tzeentch heard my prayers. 

[Duke of Mousillon]

I still did not have enough time to focus my thoughts on the new tzeentch rules sadly so I can't comment many of my thoughts in an adequat manner.

Though with battlelines virtually being unchanged from their internal imbalance from last tome I have to say I just cannot be bothered to make enough horrors for battleline. I still cannot be forced to use Kairic Models and have no conversion option. So. Tzaangors as battleline? Their dual blades are 3/3/3/-/1 now? Maybe they can be made to work somewhat? 

Theoreitcally we have three buffs? The ward safe spell and the debuff spell to reduce the saving throw? And then the buff from Fatemaster but his model would also need a conversion. 

Would like to have an artifact or command ability with it but the aoe melee buff artifact is only for demons. For all the melee focused demons in our book.  

[MitGas]

9 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

I am afraid you must be mistaking again. The Pyrofane Cult does not increase their rend. Pyrofane Cult adds 1 to their hit rolls with their ranged attack.

Damn, I got overexcited... anyways, it's surely fun to to make a kairic with -3 sorcerous bolts list once. 😇

[MitGas]

7 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

My biggest beef after reading the warscrolls is that the Gaunt summoner is a daemon and not an arcanite. It makes the "biggest" arcanite hero the curseling I guess? which feels wierd. They don't need a physical centerpiece, but the gaunt summoner was a perfect narrative one.

I also really lament the GS becoming much worse in multiple ways. Such a cool design and it's much more difficult to justify taking him now.

[Malakithe]

I thought I saw somewhere that Pyro was changed to -1 rend

[The World Tree]

7 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I thought I saw somewhere that Pyro was changed to -1 rend

nope. That is the flames one.

[Duke of Mousillon]

Crunshed some numbers. Tzaangors with dual weapons I suppose can do okish melee dmg. Just ignore the Great glaives completely. Only pair of blades if you dont use shields. Would you think having a second row of enlightened behind the tzaangors to be a fair option? Turning off commands abilities when the enemy should choose to charge the tzaangors. Though I am afraid they could have trouble being offensive with the tzaangors. The tzaangors run and charge could lose non-disc enlightened midway and  I am still not sure if I like the pointscosts on skyfires and disc enlightened. Hard to fit things into lists.

[Tizianolol]

Guys if you got battletome, can you tell me if I can all out attack with skyfires? Thx!!:)

[Sinfullyvannila]

Warhammer Weekly did their BT review some highlights:

Big wins are both chickens, Magisters, most of the Tzaangors with some caveats*, burning sigil, screamers and horrors.

Losers are Acolytes, Tzaangor Shamans and the other Endless Spells.

Vince was cold on Magisters and lukewarm on standard Tzaangors at first but his big tourney winning guests gassed him up to both.

They all more or less felt the skill floor went up quite a bit, especially with the Gaunt Summoner changes but we have everything we need to succeed even against hard counters.

 

*Enlightened role shifted to utility, and Tzaangors need dual weapons and fully leveraging their banner

[Ganigumo]

Dual weapons do outdamage the greatweapons now don't they...

Definitely bad scroll design there.

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

Dual weapons do outdamage the greatweapons now don't they...

Definitely bad scroll design there.

Ehh they used to depend on having the extra attack active to outdamage them. I kinda got sick of the 2H swords snapping off at the same fault in transit. Also now I can use them as foot enlightened.