Lets Chat: Idoneth Deepkin

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

It is specified -depending on chosen general - so it's quite obvious that both named characters will make two more units Batteline (I think guy on Deepmare makes eel riders BT and another one makes Reavers BT - and that would mean no BattleTraits or enclave specific bonuses (if the work like DoK temples and I believe so they do)

"Namarti units make up the core of any Idoneth Deepkin army, with Namarti Thralls being the only standard Battleline unit in the list (though you’ll be able to unlock more, depending on your chosen general)"

It doesn't specify that it has to be the name characters as general. Infact, all the battle line for general options. Have usually been a generic general, or a general with no command ability. Look at the medusa character as your general letting you take snakes as battle line. 

I'm also 100% sure none of the special characters as general will allow a different battle line if history proves to predict the future. 

[Connelj2]

50 minutes ago, Caladancid said:

Yeah I like the stat line but jeez that’s a high cost for what they seem to saying is a chaff unit (money not points).  

It's still not like the cost of 10x fyrslayers these guys are cheap

[Themoocher]

5$ American isn't bad per guy. They are highly detailed models

[swarmofseals]

I find the statline on the reavers to be really troubling. 2/3+/3+/-1/1 is a pretty standard "elite infantry" statline. Models with this statline tend to fall in the 14-18 point range, give or take. While one might argue that the low save points to a lower end on this range, I'd counter with the most obvious comparison being Tree-Revenants which are 16 points for basically the same statline. So that leads to two possible scenarios:

1. The "basic" infantry that's supposed to be your screen is actually going to be very defensively inefficient because it's a 1 wound 5+ save model that costs 14-18 points. You can't afford your screen unit to be so defensively inefficient.
2. Reavers will be priced at a point level that can actually support this role to some extent (likely 8-10 points per model), but this will represent a tremendous power creep as they will be SO MUCH cheaper than basically every similar warscroll in the game. While this will be great for Idoneth Deepkin, it would be really bad for the game. 

[S133arcanite]

58 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Nah thats incorrect becuase they do mention them being up front.


Also had abit of a tactical thought. Big shooting units are going to be really frustrated by idoneth. If you have a unit of 9 skyres or similar big shooting unit, and the closest unit is some half dead 5 man squad. All of your shots have to go into that 5 man squad. That's pretty brutal. 

I play Tzeentch...

Due to the fact I can split my fire...

I use one skyfire at a time, wait until I wipe said unit out, use the remaining ones (probably 2-3) on another unit

[HollowHills]

3 minutes ago, S133arcanite said:

I play Tzeentch...

Due to the fact I can split my fire...

I use one skyfire at a time, wait until I wipe said unit out, use the remaining ones (probably 2-3) on another unit

You have to declare split attacks prior to rolling any dice. Because the small unit is the only one you can legal declare  before any shots are rolled then all shots have to go into that unit. However if you ran multiple smaller units of skyfire you could declare the first 3 into one, kill them and then declare the rest.

 

Tldr big units have to put all their shots into the 5 man ****** unit.

[Cookiez]

6 minutes ago, S133arcanite said:

I play Tzeentch...

Due to the fact I can split my fire...

I use one skyfire at a time, wait until I wipe said unit out, use the remaining ones (probably 2-3) on another unit

You have to split before rolling, so you still have to shoot all skyfires into one unit.

Ok, Thralls are not the screening unit for sure (because, you know, screening unit costs 60 points for 10, not 120 probably). But turtles maybe? If the -1 to hit will be confirmed and with natural save 3+, 2+ in the first turn... like rhino in 40k can soak up some damage in overwatch for example.

[HollowHills]

9 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I find the statline on the reavers to be really troubling. 2/3+/3+/-1/1 is a pretty standard "elite infantry" statline. Models with this statline tend to fall in the 14-18 point range, give or take. While one might argue that the low save points to a lower end on this range, I'd counter with the most obvious comparison being Tree-Revenants which are 16 points for basically the same statline. So that leads to two possible scenarios:

1. The "basic" infantry that's supposed to be your screen is actually going to be very defensively inefficient because it's a 1 wound 5+ save model that costs 14-18 points. You can't afford your screen unit to be so defensively inefficient.
2. Reavers will be priced at a point level that can actually support this role to some extent (likely 8-10 points per model), but this will represent a tremendous power creep as they will be SO MUCH cheaper than basically every similar warscroll in the game. While this will be great for Idoneth Deepkin, it would be really bad for the game. 

Given we don't know what the rest of the warscroll says it's very hard to judge how good they will be. For instance they may scale really well in big blobs, they may re roll saves or ignore rend we have no idea.

What we do know is that Lotan gives them re roll 1s and some of the fluff mentions being able to revitalise nemarti units. We also know that the eidolon gives a bonus to wound rolls. So their attack dice might end up only missing on 2s and re rolled 1s

[Theduke]

10 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I find the statline on the reavers to be really troubling. 2/3+/3+/-1/1 is a pretty standard "elite infantry" statline. Models with this statline tend to fall in the 14-18 point range, give or take. While one might argue that the low save points to a lower end on this range, I'd counter with the most obvious comparison being Tree-Revenants which are 16 points for basically the same statline. So that leads to two possible scenarios:

1. The "basic" infantry that's supposed to be your screen is actually going to be very defensively inefficient because it's a 1 wound 5+ save model that costs 14-18 points. You can't afford your screen unit to be so defensively inefficient.
2. Reavers will be priced at a point level that can actually support this role to some extent (likely 8-10 points per model), but this will represent a tremendous power creep as they will be SO MUCH cheaper than basically every similar warscroll in the game. While this will be great for Idoneth Deepkin, it would be really bad for the game. 

Dont forget to take into account the tide effects.  T1 they will have a 4+.  Add in mystic shield gets them to 3+.  

[Aelfric]

It would be nice if one of the turtle builds acted as a transport, especially if they have protection from missile fire.  Get those thralls to the front before they die.

[DantePQ]

I think they will be 120-140 for 10,possibly 140/360

[Themoocher]

I expect them to be our front line troop. Because they are fragile maybe 10 a model? Pure speculation based on what I've seen of elves in the past, but their front lines tend to hit like a truck in combat. They  are fragile if not supported properly though. We will just wait for more spoilers.

[Acid_Nine]

44 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I find the statline on the reavers to be really troubling. 2/3+/3+/-1/1 is a pretty standard "elite infantry" statline. Models with this statline tend to fall in the 14-18 point range, give or take. While one might argue that the low save points to a lower end on this range, I'd counter with the most obvious comparison being Tree-Revenants which are 16 points for basically the same statline. So that leads to two possible scenarios:

1. The "basic" infantry that's supposed to be your screen is actually going to be very defensively inefficient because it's a 1 wound 5+ save model that costs 14-18 points. You can't afford your screen unit to be so defensively inefficient.
2. Reavers will be priced at a point level that can actually support this role to some extent (likely 8-10 points per model), but this will represent a tremendous power creep as they will be SO MUCH cheaper than basically every similar warscroll in the game. While this will be great for Idoneth Deepkin, it would be really bad for the game. 

Eh, maybe we have to screen our screening units by spending some points on some stormcast eternal aetherwings or something to act as chaff, as we can probably afford 120 points to provide another screen or something if we don't wanna kill the thralls off.

 I'm more worried when we get into close combat, as there is a lot less protection there for most of the turns, and since this is fantasy most units love close combat.  I know our guys will rip apart the enemy, and by turn 2 we will be able to get into the best positions due to running and charging, and turn 3 we can cut a few more down before we get hit, but getting hit is still going to be a problem with these blokes.

[swarmofseals]

37 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Given we don't know what the rest of the warscroll says it's very hard to judge how good they will be. For instance they may scale really well in big blobs, they may re roll saves or ignore rend we have no idea.

What we do know is that Lotan gives them re roll 1s and some of the fluff mentions being able to revitalise nemarti units. We also know that the eidolon gives a bonus to wound rolls. So their attack dice might end up only missing on 2s and re rolled 1s

I think you're kinda missing my point. Of course it's possible that they will have crazy defensive buffs that will make them defensively efficient, but then we're getting into power creep territory that way too. If a unit is above the curve defensively and offensively and has decent speed while being basic battleline, then something is wrong.

34 minutes ago, Theduke said:

Dont forget to take into account the tide effects.  T1 they will have a 4+.  Add in mystic shield gets them to 3+.  

This isn't really enough to make them defensively efficient. Swordmasters already have a 4+ all the time and rerolls against shooting and they are nowhere near defensively efficient. 

[mmimzie]

Yeah getting hit is gonna most certainly a problem. Definitly the thrals have an elite fighting unit stat line. The thing we'll have to bank on will be either:

1. The turtles or some other unit has a durable stat line that can use the idoneth rules to tank damage for our glass cannon units.

2. We take advantage of MSU making targeting difficult and angle toward using the high tide to peace together a powerful turn 3 play, of the back off a strong inital turn 2 charge. 

3. We ally in something like stormcast eternals to tank for us. With the rule the way they are any ally unit can help us out. 

[blueshirtman]

1 hour ago, Themoocher said:

5$ American isn't bad per guy. They are highly detailed models

To me it seems horrible. you will need 40-60 of them, and they are all monopose. 5$ is not bad if you need 1-5 such models.

 

Quote

3. We ally in something like stormcast eternals to tank for us. With the rule the way they are any ally unit can help us out. 

Why not take skins as frontline chaff? And you could model them to look like murlocks for an even stronger, naga+their slaves army feel.

[Themoocher]

How do you know they are monopose?

[Gorthaur]

Certain arms go with certain bodies, legs are in locked position. They are about as customizable as those newer death guard kits. So heads are mostly interchangeable along with a couple bits n bobs but they aren't as customizable as say DE kabalities or empire state troops.

 

I was hoping I wouldn't need more than 20-30 of these..but I plan on playing 1000-1500 pts not 2000. Hopefully GW updates skirmish mode later in the year with deepkin rules. 

[Hoseman]

 I have a doubt. Does anyone know what is the guy with the sea unicorn?? I know the pirate with sword and shield gifted by teclis is a hero but the other one on the kit?? I wanna know because of making a full idoneth army. For 2k points is 6 heroes so if I wanna have 2 eidolons, the pirate and more mages... it's not possible to put all and if the guy on sea unicorn is like a behemont would be great for that

[Soulsmith]

All we know is he is a generic character, likely an Akhelian King, and makes fangmora eels (maybe one, maybe both) battleline.

[Hoseman]

We will see... I want to put my hands on battletome and study how to make the army. Maybe eidolon you can just have one for army (there are pictures with both but who knows). Maybe in december we get battleforce so is not time to buy everything by duplicate...

Maybe I think on a all mounted sea animals army... or maybe some blind guys are a good point (I prefer the 4+ saves and I think eels will have)... 

So many options... so many questions... 

[Clan's Cynic]

On 06/04/2018 at 12:21 PM, Hoseman said:

The thing that I see curious is the first sentence, "few weeks and months". Months??? If the plans of preorders goes since day 14 and the next two weeks thats not months... So if the battletome is preorder on 14 and with it we have all the units of the army... why months? Is there going to be incomplete the battletome? Cant understand that

Could be that one or two kits are coming in a few months. Death Guard didn't get the Blight-haulers until about two-three months later, despite pictures and rules being in their codex. 

[Circus of Paint]

5 hours ago, DantePQ said:

It is specified -depending on chosen general - so it's quite obvious that both named characters will make two more units Batteline (I think guy on Deepmare makes eel riders BT and another one makes Reavers BT - and that would mean no BattleTraits or enclave specific bonuses (if the work like DoK temples and I believe so they do)

"Namarti units make up the core of any Idoneth Deepkin army, with Namarti Thralls being the only standard Battleline unit in the list (though you’ll be able to unlock more, depending on your chosen general)"

I'm aware of the line about the general, but it doesn't specify anything further than that.

I don't see how it's "obvious" that the named characters will unlock additional Battleline, but that's certainly a plausible idea.

Until GW makes it explicitly clear in one of their previews or the book / photos gets leaked online, anything beyond that is conjecture for now.

The point I was trying to make (albeit quite poorly it seems) is that I could pick up a box of Namatri Thralls and be confident in knowing they'd fit well with the rest of my growing Order collection, as they are standard Battleline - regardless of chosen Allegiance.

On a side note, I do hope whatever equivalent of the DoK Temples the Idoneth have follow the same rules template - I like having the additional theme and matching rules without being bulked down by having to use certain units or a Warscroll Battalion. The larger number of units I would have to paint just to be able to use some of the older ones (Sylvaneth...) puts me off collecting them entirely!

 

[Soulsmith]

@Circus of Paint Totally agree with you, I believe the unnamed deepmare rider hero will give battleline eels, as it's probably an Akhelian King. Also agree on the Thralls, I think even going pure Idoneth they're going to be near mandatory, as they will be solid bubblewrap for characters and sound like they get synergy with all the wizards. I'll get some, purely because the soulrender is my favourite miniature from them and sounds like a sweet duo.

[Richelieu]

Those thralls are going to be an expensive battleline unit.  The comparison to Swordmasters is valid, no matter the rest of their abilities.  140 for ten would be aggressive.  80 for 5 is a possibility.  I Would hate to be on the receiving end of a buffed, high tide charge from a unit of these guys and gals. 

I like having battle line be effective, but if they're too costly there won't be enough room or enough screening for the elite units.  I'm going to have to reserve my judgment for now.