Incarnates Rules Discussion

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Bell of Lost Souls appears to have a scoop on the rules for the newly revealed Krondspine Incarnate:

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2022/03/age-of-sigmar-the-thunda-in-thondia-how-the-incarnates-work.html

In brief:

• Incarnates are a new type of enhancement.
• Incarnates cost points.
• Incarnates can rampage like monsters.
• Incarnates prevent you from bringing allies, but can exceed your ally point allowance.
• Incarnates are bound to one of the heroes in your army. If the hero dies, they run wild and are considered hostile to all armies on the field.
• Incarnates work kinda like monsters with a damage table, but the table contains "states". The article mentions "empowered", "destroyed", and a "normal" state in which they start the game. It is unclear whether being "wild" is a state.
• Incarnates don't have regular wounds like other models do. They instead move to higher and lower states when they get hurt. They need to take a "special 3d6 Battleshock test" to determine whether they move to a lower state. The Krondspine Incarnate is considered to have a wounds characteristic of 18 for rules purposes, however.
• Incarnates are relevant to new Grand Strategies from the Thondia book.
• Krondspine stats: Can deal up to 38 wounds at max, has a special monstrous rampage that allows it to eat Endless Spells, gives +1 to cast to a wizard bound to it if they are close and -1 to cast to enemy wizards, can "broadcast" All-Out Attack to mutliple nearby units. 400 points.

---

First impressions?

Incarnates seem to be a mix between Endless Spells and generic monsters that all armies have access to. I think the introduction of a generic monster options seems like a pretty good move. It certainly levels the playing field a bit for armies without access to monsters, like Nighthaunt and KO.

The Kronspine Incarnate seems to come with a good amount of upsides, too. +1/-1 to cast and an All-Out Attack aura are quite nice by themselves. Since it also functions like a beat stick, it seems very usable if its unknown stats hold up. If you have access to a defensive hero, losing control of the Incarnate does not seem like too much of a worry.

It remains an open question whether Incarnates will become a permanent part of the game moving foreward. If so, there is certainly a bit of rules bloat happening right now, since Incarnates seem to work on their own special subsystem. I would have definitely expected them to be closer to Endless Spells. It seems the complexity creep is real: 3rd edition already has more going on rules-wise than 2nd, and this is another separate mechanical system to remember. The state-based system, however, might be a sneak peek at the future of AoS. GW's rules designers really seem to love it since they came up with "empowered" for Underworlds, and I would not be surprised if we saw it on regular units eventually.

 

[Kaleb Daark]

Anything from BOLS just leaves me feeling like I need a shower and a purification ritual.  I find it quite a hateful place.

I really hope that FW bring back some incarnate models, anything has got to be better than that current mess.

It looks like a craft fair make your own bead neclace effort.

The empowered thing is interesting, they do it in Crisis Protocol, probably might be where GW designers ponced it from.

Interesting times.

[TheCovenLord]

It feels like unnecessary rules bloat, it should have been closer to an endless spell of some sort as they already have that system in place. This whole extra layer of states is getting to be a bit much so I hope this is a one off. My group has suffered from the rules creep heavily - the game in 3rd ed plays better once you get the hang of it but the complexity and knowledge floor is so big now that it is difficult to get new interest in the game and some of the more casual players have stopped playing completely as it is getting to be too much. The flip side is also the more rules-interested players no longer see the game as casual fun and have ALSO stopped playing to move onto tighter more complex rules systems elsewhere. 

Really not a fan of the model either - looks like stretched taffy over some bits found in a drawer somewhere. Cool conversions would definitely improve this (like a ghostly dragon for night haunt perhaps).

 

Interesting way of giving all armies access to monsters.

Edited March 30, 2022 by TheCovenLord

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

39 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

It looks like a craft fair make your own bead neclace effort.

 

12 minutes ago, TheCovenLord said:

 

Really not a fan of the model either - looks like stretched taffy over some bits found in a drawer somewhere. Cool conversions would definitely improve this (like a ghostly dragon for night haunt perhaps).

I overall like the model and suspect it will look better in person and without the standard 'eavy Metal paint job. But I won't deny that it reminds me of the worst part of the Celestant Prime: the Trash Hurricane Orrery of Celestial Fates.

I don't 100% know why GW went for this type of support either. They have done floating models way better before. The Lumineth foxes and a bunch of Nighthaunt models like the new boat guy, for example.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Kadeton]

I'm really not a fan of abilities that mess with the core 'hard choices', like which single unit to give All-Out Attack to, and turn them into brainless routines.

This thing seems absolutely tailor-made to synergise with Nighthaunt, and probably a bit overpowered in general.

[Horizons]

I'm really glad to see Incarnates as a new mechanic. I think a few people had a wishlist of roaming monsters we could add to our armies when 3rd edition was announced so it's really great to see that GW was on the same wavelength.

 

+1 cast/ -1 cast makes me want to bring this alongside Gobbsprak, but then I have to abandon my freshly painted Rippa's Snarlfang. : (.

If these turn out to be accurate leaks it's pretty interesting and I'm eager to see how many more incarnates we get.

A little dissapointed in the delivery method for the model. I'm not keen on buying a box of terrain to get my monster. Who knows maybe it'll be sold separately later on.

[Noserenda]

Strikes me as just a monster rather than anything endless spell feeling? 

Generic monsters is a good idea when they are wanting to centre monsters in the game but not update everyone to actually have any! 

[Grimrock]

Not really sure if it'll be any good at this point, but I'm not really a fan of the idea that there will be a 400 point model available for all factions. If it's awful then great, only people who want it for flavor or really like the model will take it. The problem is if the rules are good then it's going to massively change how the game looks when half of all players are spending a huge chunk of their points to have the exact same model in their army. We haven't had that problem with endless spells because they're relatively cheap and usually do one specific thing, but this seems all over the place to justify that 400 point cost. It'll probably be fun for a bit but it'll get old super fast, especially if you're playing an army that gets countered by it (for example a lot of casters that use endless spells).

Edited March 30, 2022 by Grimrock

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

15 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Not really sure if it'll be any good at this point, but I'm not really a fan of the idea that there will be a 400 point model available for all factions. If it's awful then great, only people who want it for flavor or really like the model will take it. The problem is if the rules are good then it's going to massively change how the game looks when half of all players are spending a huge chunk of their points to have the exact same model in their army. We haven't had the problem with endless spells because they're relatively cheap and usually do one specific thing, but this seems all over the place to justify that 400 point cost. It'll probably be fun for a bit but it'll get old super fast, especially if you're playing an army that gets countered by it (for example a lot of casters that use endless spells).

I suspect that betwee the price tag, making it impossible to take allies, the potential to go wild and the Incarnates' inability to benefit from allegiance abilities, they will probably not replace native monster options for armies that have access to good ones.

[Grimrock]

41 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I suspect that betwee the price tag, making it impossible to take allies, the potential to go wild and the Incarnates' inability to benefit from allegiance abilities, they will probably not replace native monster options for armies that have access to good ones.

That's the hope yeah, that it's only taken by bottom tier armies that have no other viable choices. However with all the bonus rules it has there's a definite chance it'll outclass the majority of monsters out there and become a list building staple. Impossible to say without seeing the full rules. I just know how it feels generally playing armies that are hard countered by Gotrek and having him available to all order armies. Taking that concept and extrapolating it out to a model that can be taken by every faction is concerning.

Edit: Just to be very clear on what I'm worried about: This is a high points cost model and historically GW has had a very hard time balancing high point cost models. The fact that this model is available to all factions in the game makes this very dangerous, as if it is too strong then many people will use it and the game will get extremely monotonous and repetitive. If that doesn't happen then I'm happy.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Grimrock

[JackStreicher]

It’s better and cheaper than a leviadon. Idoneth will utterly abuse it

[Mutton]

I think they still haven't resolved the core issues with the fundamental game, and now they're adding more fluff, so it probably won't end well. I'm sure some factions will benefit from insane synergies with this thing and they'll likely be the ones that are already dominating.

That said, I think generic monsters is a good idea. I just wish they'd suck it up and fix the basic ruleset first.

[Skreech Verminking]

Well, I personally don’t like the new model, but when has that ever stopped me a skaven player.

I’m used to converting stuff.

As for rule purposes, I’m not sure that thing is worth the 400points for at least me.

skaven are currently anyways very overcosted, taking something for 400points will reduce the amount of damage dealing units the skaven can take dramatically.

not sure I want that.

Then again if rumors are correct, the multiple all out attack buff it can give, could be a fun addition to any rattling gun weapon team spamming list.

Considering that most heroes in the game are pretty squishy, taking that thing seems kinda risky (not that I mind it)

Personally I wouldn’t mind seeing a person taking it, just so I can kill his wizard with my doomwheel.

Personally I will enjoy the rampaging effect of that monster 

 

[yukishiro1]

Hey, another reason to Just Shoot the Heroes - now you'll not only remove your opponent's buff synergies, but you can actually make his own model attack himself!

OTOH, if this makes it a bad choice that people don't take, that's a lot better than it being a must-include that everyone has to take (and shell out some ridiculous price tag for the box that contains it). So I'd rather it be junk than overpowered, if those are the choices. 

The thing that concerns me most about this is the reference to grand strategies including them. That has alarm bells all over it. Though who knows, maybe there'll still be a couple super easy obvious ones that everyone will take, so again it will have no real impact. 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by yukishiro1

[Beliman]

I imagine that everybody will bound their incarnates to their most resilient character in their lists.

I'm really interested to see how all of this will end,  I can see that +1 to cast an "extra" bonus for something crazy (can you buff your Incarnate with spells?).

Edited March 31, 2022 by Beliman

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, but most resilient characters are super expensive. Is anyone going to want to spend 1400 points on Nagash and this thing? Presumably not, that leaves your army so vulnerable to anything that can actually kill your big model.

There are some relatively cheap but resilient characters, but they're pretty rare. Like I could see pairing it with a frost or maybe even a flame phoenix - gotta kill 14 wounds on a 4+/4++ that then if you do kill it, it heals to full on a 4+ and you gotta do it all over again. Or on a cheap stormcast hero with the thing that prevents you from being shot outside however many inches it is. Or IDK.

But aside from edge cases like that it seems unlikely to be worth it. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by yukishiro1

[Nezzhil]

If it comes from BoLS the reliability is less than 0. You must be careful with the info you take as truth.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

42 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

Yeah, but most resilient characters are super expensive. Is anyone going to want to spend 1400 points on Nagash and this thing? Presumably not, that leaves your army so vulnerable to anything that can actually kill your big model.

There are some relatively cheap but resilient characters, but they're pretty rare. Like I could see pairing it with a frost or maybe even a flame phoenix - gotta kill 14 wounds on a 4+/4++ that then if you do kill it, it heals to full on a 4+ and you gotta do it all over again. Or on a cheap stormcast hero with the thing that prevents you from being shot outside however many inches it is. Or IDK.

But aside from edge cases like that it seems unlikely to be worth it. 

I don't know, it feels like attaching the Incarnate to a small foot hero could be worth it if they are resilient enough. Especially if you are OK with parking them behind line-of-sigh blocking terrain for most of the game. If they are a wizard they could probably still contribute in that situation.

I also have a suspicion that the Seasons of War: Thondia book or GHB will come with reworked terrain rules. People have been asking for those for ages. If so, maybe the threat of mortal wound shooting will diminish a bit in the near future.

The biggest hurdle I see for the Incarnates is the whole state change mechanic. If they are not strong as a base line but need to be empowered to be worth it, I think that might just be one hoop too many to jump through in most cases. Depending on how hard it is to get them empowered, of course.

4 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

If it comes from BoLS the reliability is less than 0. You must be careful with the info you take as truth.

Yeah, but the article goes into a lot of very concrete detail. That makes it fairly believable in my mind. Of course, we won't know until anything is officially confirmed.

[RuneBrush]

Interesting I think would me my initial comment.  On the one hand I really like the fact that it allows armies lacking a monster type centrepiece the option to have one (and clearly there's an implication there will be other incarnates).  On the other there is a risk that if you don't have a chunky hero to attach it to, it'll do as much damage to your own army as your opponent's if it goes wild.

The all out attack bubble I'm mixed on.  It's only +1 to hit in two phases and I'm guessing (having not seen the rules and loath to head to the pit that is BoLS) that it still counts as a command ability, preventing a unit from benefiting from another in that phase.  If that's the case, it doesn't feel horrifically over the top - it integrates neatly into the existing rules without any special conditions.  If there are extra layers (e.g. doesn't count as a CA), I've more of an issue because it just adds (more) unnecessary complexity.

My biggest reservation is longevity.  The model is currently locked behind a big box set plus an expansion book.  In a couple of years time when we get a new rules version will Incarnate's still exist?

ps - am I the only one that thinks it looks a bit like a cheese string monster? 🧀

[Skreech Verminking]

15 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

It’s better and cheaper than a leviadon. Idoneth will utterly abuse it

1 doomwheel later, and that monster will be rampaging through your own lines😂😂

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

Interesting I think would me my initial comment.  On the one hand I really like the fact that it allows armies lacking a monster type centrepiece the option to have one (and clearly there's an implication there will be other incarnates).  On the other there is a risk that if you don't have a chunky hero to attach it to, it'll do as much damage to your own army as your opponent's if it goes wild.

The all out attack bubble I'm mixed on.  It's only +1 to hit in two phases and I'm guessing (having not seen the rules and loath to head to the pit that is BoLS) that it still counts as a command ability, preventing a unit from benefiting from another in that phase.  If that's the case, it doesn't feel horrifically over the top - it integrates neatly into the existing rules without any special conditions.  If there are extra layers (e.g. doesn't count as a CA), I've more of an issue because it just adds (more) unnecessary complexity.

My biggest reservation is longevity.  The model is currently locked behind a big box set plus an expansion book.  In a couple of years time when we get a new rules version will Incarnate's still exist?

ps - am I the only one that thinks it looks a bit like a cheese string monster? 🧀

The article says that Incarnates have a "domination range", which will affect their abilities. How I understand the All-Out Attack aura to function is that the character bonded to the Incarnate issues the command, and then every unit within the domination range receives it. The domination range apparently changes based on the state the Incarnate is in, so presumably it the range of the command bounce goes up if it's empowered.

The article does not specify, but I assume the character to which the Incarnate is bonded needs to stay within the domination range, as well (to dominate it; that makes sense, right?). If so, that's definitely another wrinkle to the whole thing. I previously had it in my head that you just need to be within 18" of the Incarnate with your hero (no idea where I got that from), but I think it looks likely that the Domination range will be significantly shorter most of the time.

In any case, All-Out Attack is only a +1 to hit, as you say. Given that unconditional +1 to hit auras already exist in a bunch of armies, I think that part of the warscroll is unlikely to be game breaking.

[Iamanbo]

Price?

[JackStreicher]

23 minutes ago, Iamanbo said:

Price?

Points: 400
Money: What you'd think is adequate *2.5 + 20

[Wordy9th]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The article says that Incarnates have a "domination range", which will affect their abilities. How I understand the All-Out Attack aura to function is that the character bonded to the Incarnate issues the command, and then every unit within the domination range receives it. The domination range apparently changes based on the state the Incarnate is in, so presumably it the range of the command bounce goes up if it's empowered.

The article does not specify, but I assume the character to which the Incarnate is bonded needs to stay within the domination range, as well (to dominate it; that makes sense, right?). If so, that's definitely another wrinkle to the whole thing. I previously had it in my head that you just need to be within 18" of the Incarnate with your hero (no idea where I got that from), but I think it looks likely that the Domination range will be significantly shorter most of the time.

In any case, All-Out Attack is only a +1 to hit, as you say. Given that unconditional +1 to hit auras already exist in a bunch of armies, I think that part of the warscroll is unlikely to be game breaking.

The big question: will OBR benefit from this aura?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Just now, Wordy9th said:

The big question: will OBR benefit from this aura?

It reads in the article like it will probably be worded something like "If the hero to which the Krondspine Incarnate is bound issues the All-Out Attack command, it can  issue it to all fiendly units within domination range instead of a single unit" . If this is right, then it is predicated on being able to issue the command in the first place. I would expect OBR not to be able to benefit.