The Winter Rules Update

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

1 minute ago, Carnith said:

They aren't. One's a prayer that I can't interact with. The other is subject to poor dice rolls and opponents usually having wizards to counterspell. 

And translocation is far less impactful in terms of mobility. I honestly do not understand your message. Translocation has less "cost" involved, but also grants less mobility compared to Ironjaws trick. Ironjaws earn much better results for more costs involved, although some might argue that it's too rewarding for the cost.

I personally would like to see all out-of-phase movement and shooting removed altogether from the game to mitigate alpha strikes in the game, but it maybe too drastic a change for GW to handle.

[vinnyt]

32 minutes ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

"Maybe actually try them in fusion builds with proven pieces. Find synergies." is not a valid argument against posters who complained about internal balance of SCE battletomes. You are not providing any counterexamples. The argument is not too different from pointless "git gud" rhetoric which occasionally comes out in balance discussions.

Also if you think making an intact unit of paladins, which usually have 3+ save, across the board on foot to combat is similar to sending Gotrek, a model with one of the best defensive mechanisms existing in the game, into melee then I must highly doubt your capability to make fair comparisons between units.

Also resurrection does not come free in SCE, unless you meant to say investing 300+ points on Yndrasta with lackluster combat power costs nothing in already expensive SCE roster. If you were referring to Lord-Arcanum's unique ability, then you are vastly overestimating its utility.

sure, here's how you can do it. Deepstrike them and then make the 9" charge, spending a CP if necessary for a roughly 50/50 shot of immediately making it into combat. Or do that, fail, get the double turn and then have your 5" rerollable charge if needed. Sometimes you have to deal with variance in the game. Just because stormcast has better options doesn't mean that your paladins are useless. They're just suboptimal. If you really like them you can absolutely make them work. You'll just have to accept that better options exist.

And you're absolutely correct that resurrection isn't free. Sometimes you can't get everything you want and have to build a list with tough decisions where you sacrifice certain things. Good news is that Gardus got cheaper for a super casual bubble of amulet of destiny across much of your army if you really really want to footslog. Oh you can also take things like raptors to shoot off big threats. Maybe just start with a single unit of paladins in an otherwise optimized army and experiment with swapping things out to see if there are ways you can force your opponent to focus on other things first, allowing your paladins to teleport across the table in peace. Haven't seen any battle reports of people trying this out but boy have I heard a lot about how terrible paladins are. 

 

[Dingding123]

On 12/21/2021 at 8:43 AM, Doko said:

Worst balance never done by gw ever.

Top armys:

Gargants 0 changes or nerf

Dok 0 changes or nerf,even some buffs

Tzenth no nerf for kairos or lord of change

Seraphons a sligth nerf to salamdres

Sc dont get any nerf even broken units as fulminators or raptors(and useless units as twin dragons domt get any buff)

Ironjaws that are the top army didnt get even close to any nerf,only a sligth nerf  to gruntas

 

But middle tier armys as citys got a huge nerf to irondrakes,gotrek got a 50!!!! Nerf when teclis or morathi didnt get any change 

I'm thinking SoB got a couple decent nerfs, albeit indirect and despite the points buff for Mancrushers.  Amulet and Heroic Recovery were both huge for them - how many other heroes are unnamed and have 35+ wounds - plus buffs to other factions (however slight) are nerfs to them as well with them being so popular in competitions.

[Neverchosen]

I am now curious if the (likely) quarterly updates will lead to quicker turn around for rule releases but will they have more errors knowing they can just fix them more readily?

 

[readercolin]

7 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

sure, here's how you can do it. Deepstrike them and then make the 9" charge, spending a CP if necessary for a roughly 50/50 shot of immediately making it into combat. Or do that, fail, get the double turn and then have your 5" rerollable charge if needed. Sometimes you have to deal with variance in the game. Just because stormcast has better options doesn't mean that your paladins are useless. They're just suboptimal. If you really like them you can absolutely make them work. You'll just have to accept that better options exist.

And you're absolutely correct that resurrection isn't free. Sometimes you can't get everything you want and have to build a list with tough decisions where you sacrifice certain things. Good news is that Gardus got cheaper for a super casual bubble of amulet of destiny across much of your army if you really really want to footslog. Oh you can also take things like raptors to shoot off big threats. Maybe just start with a single unit of paladins in an otherwise optimized army and experiment with swapping things out to see if there are ways you can force your opponent to focus on other things first, allowing your paladins to teleport across the table in peace. Haven't seen any battle reports of people trying this out but boy have I heard a lot about how terrible paladins are. 

Tell me - have you actually tried this yourself before you started spouting nonsense?

Go ahead and try to put the list together.  We'll wait.  What's that?  You ran out of points before you could even add in the paladins? 🤔Hmm... maybe someone has already tried doing this, and discovered it doesn't really work.  Oh well, lets take out one of the known good units and stick the paladins in anwyays.

Hey, wait, I failed to make my charge (you know, because a 9" re-rollable is only 50% likely).  And then my opponent dared to just... walk away from me.  Not even walk away fast, just walk away.  And then he shot my paladins off.  What could I have done to do this better?  Oh, I know - take annihilators, because a 7" re-rollable charge is 75% likely to happen instead of 50% likely to happen, AND they at least do something even if they fail their charge.

Hmm... lets try just walking them up the board next game.  Wait, I spent 200+ points on a unit that... did exactly nothing, got charged, and then died because my opponent swung first?  Or died because they casually got shot off the board?  Or just did nothing because my opponent just... casually sauntered away?  🤔How odd... if only someone could have told me to expect such a thing to happen.

What if I just sit on an objective and force my opponent to come to me?  That ought to work, right?  Wait a second, you have a monster toeing the far back edge of the objective?  How will I ever take this from you now?

There is a reason why you haven't seen many battle reports fielding paladins. There have been a few, mostly near the launch of the book.  There have been a lot of people who experimented with paladins, mostly before the FAQ removed the move after teleport.  And even then, paladins were suffering and failing to perform better than the alternatives.  It is almost like people have tried this before, and then shared their results.  But of course, that doesn't fit into your narrative, so you conveniently ignore it in favor of telling people to keep beating that dead horse and maybe this time gold will come out.

[Dressedspring1]

As someone with a mixed Khorne/slaves army that is unplayable and a nighthaunt army that just sucks, I’m amazed at how bitter some of you guys can be 🤷‍♂️ 

[Beliman]

I think that people are comparing 1:1 abilities and combos from completely diferent armies with just a competitive mind to judge. I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do.

 

[Marcvs]

2 hours ago, Dingding123 said:

I'm thinking SoB got a couple decent nerfs, albeit indirect and despite the points buff for Mancrushers.  Amulet and Heroic Recovery were both huge for them - how many other heroes are unnamed and have 35+ wounds - plus buffs to other factions (however slight) are nerfs to them as well with them being so popular in competitions.

With their bravery of 7 heroic recovery was never that important for Sob so I wouldn't call that huge. They have lost ~10 wounds from their typical build with the amulet (not counting the fact that many of their opponents might also have used the amulet before). Considering their place in the competitive meta -one of the highest win rates, most popular army, etc- I'd say it was pretty mild

[stratigo]

13 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Why is it such a problem to you that Stormcast are now a less mobile army and that a 700 point god model can give +1d6" charge distance to a bunch of Destruction armies at the same time?

You really seem excessively salty about Stormcast sometimes. They objectively came out quite well from the FAQ and will probably one of the main contenders to do well in tournaments for a while.

I mean, it's a big problem to me how mobile destruction (especially OWC) are. Like, they casually charge from one edge of the board to the other. The mobility in this game narrows the tactical space of the game and requires shooting to be super one shot powerful, or it is mostly useless

[Indecisive]

stormcast books never really felt inspired
that, and the obvious intent to keep them plain as starters as well as a stupid number of warscrolls of redundant units means it'll always be disappointing somehow

a bunch of units don't even merit being separate

[yukishiro1]

11 hours ago, stratigo said:

I mean, it's a big problem to me how mobile destruction (especially OWC) are. Like, they casually charge from one edge of the board to the other. The mobility in this game narrows the tactical space of the game and requires shooting to be super one shot powerful, or it is mostly useless

The arms race between melee mobility and shooting effectiveness hasn't led the game to good places. At this point, almost all competitive lists can go hard into their opponent from the top of T1, which just feels a bit weird TBH. There's no "maneuver" phase of a game really in competitive AOS, models die in droves from the very start of the very first turn. 

But the developers have only doubled down on this with the new books (except Nurgle I guess, though even Nurgle has fairly reliable T1 charges with pusgoyles in the faction with the pregame move - 16" move puts you at a 3-6" charge from your opponent's line depending on the plan). SCE and IJ have probably the strongest alpha in the game, and they're two of the three newest tomes. So it seems like the developers like this world where every army can hit every army from T1. 

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Howdyhedberg]

2 hours ago, Dressedspring1 said:

As someone with a mixed Khorne/slaves army that is unplayable and a nighthaunt army that just sucks, I’m amazed at how bitter some of you guys can be 🤷‍♂️ 

In my last two games where we have played 3 players, the one that picked nighthaunt won. Probably because that player got to the objectives and kept scoring.... 

We are casual players though!

But I agree,a lot of salty content here.

I wish y'all happy holidays!

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Howdyhedberg

[vinnyt]

6 hours ago, readercolin said:

paladins were suffering and failing to perform better than the alternatives

Just because stormcast has better options doesn't mean that your paladins are useless. They're just suboptimal.

6 hours ago, readercolin said:

There is a reason why you haven't seen many battle reports fielding paladins.

because you've already made up your mind to be as salty as possible that sometimes you have to acknowledge that a unit has downsides, you have stronger units easily available, and for some reason the stormcast community doesn't like to post detailed battle reports. 

7 hours ago, readercolin said:

Oh, I know - take annihilators

yes, annihilators are much better.  

7 hours ago, readercolin said:

Go ahead and try to put the list together.

Imperator
Relictor with translocation

5 Protectors
2x5 Retributors 

6 Grandhammer Annihilators
6 Raptors

list is a 1 drop 

Not a 5-0 list but certainly one that will give your opponent a good game. Also certainly not optimized but it does a good job showing what I mean. You take really good units- Imperator, Relictor, Annihilators, and Raptors, and then mix in some suboptimal ones (paladins) to see how they do, making adjustments as necessary. You're probably gonna lose some games, but hey, you'll definitely win some too. 

Give it a try and post the battle report with pictures so we can all learn from the game. I do that all the time over in the Deepkin subforum and encourage others to do the same. It lets the community see how things work in the field and provides much more detail than "terrible list, will never work". Heck, I've got like 18 battle reports in this fashion posted on facebook (and a good number posted on TGA) across multiple different faction fb groups and the response has been nothing but positive. It also lets others see how to handle certain matchups, how to do certain techniques (like the stormfiend alley-oop), and as long as you can swallow your pride and post your losses (my poor skaven  ), it can be a really helpful educational tool. 

 

Or you can just wallow in salt that not everything is exactly how you'd like and there's no hope and you only have 17 competitive warscrolls and why even bother playing or testing anything else. 

[pnkdth]

5 hours ago, Beliman said:

I think that people are comparing 1:1 abilities and combos from completely diferent armies with just a competitive mind to judge. I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do.

 

A common trap in asymmetrically balanced games unfortunately. Grass is always greener.

This update is also "the first..." and I am very much pleased with the approach of applying incremental tweaks rather than knee-****** sledgehammer nerfs that some of the more vocal parts of the community demand. The low tier armies could have gotten more attention but on the other hand many of their issues require a battletome update since lower the points only get you so far.

Overall, I'm quite pleased with how things have turned out and, frankly, they did more than I expected. Especially the changes to Unleash Hell, limiting heroic recovery, and removing the Amulet of Destiny as an auto-include.

[Drazhoath]

41 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

Just because stormcast has better options doesn't mean that your paladins are useless. They're just suboptimal.

because you've already made up your mind to be as salty as possible that sometimes you have to acknowledge that a unit has downsides, you have stronger units easily available, and for some reason the stormcast community doesn't like to post detailed battle reports. 

yes, annihilators are much better.  

Imperator
Relictor with translocation

5 Protectors
2x5 Retributors 

6 Grandhammer Annihilators
6 Raptors

list is a 1 drop 

Not a 5-0 list but certainly one that will give your opponent a good game. Also certainly not optimized but it does a good job showing what I mean. You take really good units- Imperator, Relictor, Annihilators, and Raptors, and then mix in some suboptimal ones (paladins) to see how they do, making adjustments as necessary. You're probably gonna lose some games, but hey, you'll definitely win some too. 

Give it a try and post the battle report with pictures so we can all learn from the game. I do that all the time over in the Deepkin subforum and encourage others to do the same. It lets the community see how things work in the field and provides much more detail than "terrible list, will never work". Heck, I've got like 18 battle reports in this fashion posted on facebook (and a good number posted on TGA) across multiple different faction fb groups and the response has been nothing but positive. It also lets others see how to handle certain matchups, how to do certain techniques (like the stormfiend alley-oop), and as long as you can swallow your pride and post your losses (my poor skaven  ), it can be a really helpful educational tool. 

 

Or you can just wallow in salt that not everything is exactly how you'd like and there's no hope and you only have 17 competitive warscrolls and why even bother playing or testing anything else. 

I tried a similar list but without Raptors. Were nice and close games where I had a lot of fun and the other players too! I know its not competetive but we play AoS because of fun…sth many of the guys here forget.

And I cant see any reasons to play Games against Dragon Spam Lists, 2x6 Raptors and so on. This games are just boooooring! So Im with you to try different and uncommon lists.

Ps: I realy enjoy your tips and battle reports in the IDK forum!

[Nerdkingdan]

Suboptimal can be upsetting if your just looking at the rules, and top tables.    If you own both and say.  “why use my cool paladins?”     Cause they are cool?    I am very competitive, but right now all of my games are against people who are not, so I bought stormcast for the reason your complaining about them.   The really cool ability to make my list weaker while functioning the same with different power levels.     Multiple themes to limit myself to allow me to have good games with people at different competitive levels.   I’m doing all sacrosanct, right now.    After it’s done looking at an all warrior chamber list, cause they are cool, when I get to go back to competitive I can start making optimal choices with tons of practice with the core of the game.

Stormcast can be competitive and have a fun game, and still provide me with the fun of list design.    It’s not always just about competitive play in a hobby as big as this.    GW always seems to apply the blood bowl model to armies and choices, that is to say some are not as good so list building and army selection have meaning.

Now with that said what the hell not fixing the ballista?   That really is useless.

[Kamose]

 As a Sons of Behemat player:

1. Thanks for the points drop.

2. Thanks for nerfing Amulet of Destiny (I'm not being sarcastic, 5++ saves on gargants is egreious and unfun).

3. Why no FAQ or rules update...? 🙁

 

As a Seraphon player:

1. Thanks for some points drop and thanks for the points hike on Salamanders (again I'm not being sarcastic, they did need it).

2. Why no FAQ or rules update...? 😢
 

 

As a Cities of Sigmar player:

1. Thanks for the points drop on my Griffons!

2. Why no FAQ or rules update...? 😭

 

As a Beasts of Chaos player:

1.  Thanks for the points drop.  Now just lower them a little more, a little more, liiiittle more.  There we go, right into the trash. 🗑️

2. Why no FAQ or rules update...? 💀

[NauticalSoup]

8 hours ago, Dressedspring1 said:

As someone with a mixed Khorne/slaves army that is unplayable and a nighthaunt army that just sucks, I’m amazed at how bitter some of you guys can be 🤷‍♂️ 

I mean my SCE army sucked for all of 2.0 and now it... ...well honestly, it still sucks, because I'm never gonna buy fulminators. Not having a book at least there's the potential for it to get better. For Nighthaunts at least.

The blood tithe thing is horrible though, I think you probably should be bitter if you aren't. 

[Marcvs]

6 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

So it seems like the developers like this world where every army can hit every army from T1. 

 

Purely personal feeling but I think this is actually correct, in the sense that they want to shorten the duration of a game of Age of Sigmar to better compete with new and faster miniature games (Marvel Crisis Protocol, A Song of Ice and Fire...) -of course they also introduced rules which slow it down, like out of turn actions and coherency rules, but that's another story). If you can start killing each other in t1 a) there's less stuff around in further turns and b) maybe one day you can play a game over 4 rounds

[yukishiro1]

I think that's right, but the problem is that it really exposes the limitations of an IGOUGO system re: the "each other" part of that formulation. It's not really a lot of fun or satisfying to have significant portions of your army removed before you even get to move them, particularly when it's via long-range shooting that is difficult or impossible to mitigate. Whoever thought letting Longstrikes have a hero phase shoot you can use to double shoot T1 doesn't understand how to create engaging gameplay experiences, for example. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by yukishiro1

[The Red King]

1 hour ago, Kamose said:

 As a Sons of Behemat player:

1. Thanks for the points drop.

2. Thanks for nerfing Amulet of Destiny (I'm not being sarcastic, 5++ saves on gargants is egreious and unfun).

3. Why no FAQ or rules update...? 🙁

 

As a Seraphon player:

1. Thanks for some points drop and thanks for the points hike on Salamanders (again I'm not being sarcastic, they did need it).

2. Why no FAQ or rules update...? 😢
 

 

As a Cities of Sigmar player:

1. Thanks for the points drop on my Griffons!

2. Why no FAQ or rules update...? 😭

 

As a Beasts of Chaos player:

1.  Thanks for the points drop.  Now just lower them a little more, a little more, liiiittle more.  There we go, right into the trash. 🗑️

2. Why no FAQ or rules update...? 💀

They ignored me asking where the rest of the FAQ were on Facebook (thought it would be a softball question to say "they're coming soon!" If they were) and they've already updated the app which is really cool that they moved that fast on it and I appreciate it (though it's possible they delayed the update until it was ready to go live on the app) but that also means there are probably no more FAQ coming for many armies that really really need it.

[yukishiro1]

There's definitely nothing more coming, at least not as part of the plan. That was it. 

[The Red King]

1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:

There's definitely nothing more coming, at least not as part of the plan. That was it. 

A few nerfs to some of the strongest armies. No nerfs to others, randomly breaking a few things and "buffing" any bad army by making them into a horde faction. Games workshop never change...

Edited December 23, 2021 by The Red King

[Zeblasky]

23 hours ago, Jaskier said:

TIL someone in this thread lives in a magical world where Irondrakes can't use the Soulscream Bridge and Living City doesn't exist...I say magical because I'd like to live in that world too Oh and apparently the gap between 10 4+ save (3+ against shooting) wounds and 11 6+ save wounds "isn't that big." 

.....

what

While I don't want to go on about proving that Blisbarbs are better or the same as Irondrakes as they are quite different units with different roles... But if we're talking about those 2 things, well...

 

It really sucks to rely on Soulscream bridge because of the fact that you need it to be casted and not unbound or especially auto unbound. And when you have 800-900 points in your army all based around that bridge going off and teleporting you buffed Irondrakes and it just does not go off or gets auto denied... It is kinda game ending in a lot of cases. And in Living City Irondrakes are kinda bad. You can't really buff them from deep strike, and their range limits them by a lot. That's why I use Sisters of the Watch there instead, as they were secretly very good in Living City for a loooong time. Not as broken as Fulminators of course, just good.

[Doko]

Dont feed the troll,there is a reason that irondrakes usually arent in any 5\0 cos lists. The bridge isnt reliably and imposible win 5 games with the bridge tactic.

Its so sad as a army as citys that usually is around 14\19 in tournaments rankings(tier3) got a nerf while top tier armys as behemats or belakors got 0 nerfs