The Winter Rules Update

[yukishiro1]

21 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Bloodstalkers, Salamanders and Sentinels had a point increase (maybe not big enough but it's not better than before) and Unleash Hell is not as strong as strong as pre-patch. 
Maybe not what people wanted, but it's still a nerf to ranged (to hit rolls) mortal wounds.

Yeah, sure, individual units got minor points nerfs here and there and unleash hell got a minor nerf that indirectly impacts MW spam lists to some degree. But MWs got even stronger overall as a mechanic with amulet being nerfed. We're still firmly in a save stacking vs MW spam meta. Maybe it was too much to expect them to change that since they seem happy with it, but it was on most of our lists as a problem in the game and it didn't get addressed at all.

I'm not saying it's a terrible update, just that in typical GW fashion they've managed to also do a lot of weird and ugly things along with the good ones, while overlooking a lot of obvious changes the community was more or less agreed on. 

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by yukishiro1

[novakai]

Coalition rules seem like an attempt to keep those marked mixed army legal but it seem like they are going away from that kind of souping so now it just there but not really a compelling options to use coalition units

[petitionercity]

4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

So what did the skaven need:

-a huge points decrease, across the whole faction

-a increase in size for stormvermins and plague monks

And what has gw to show for it,

well basically nothing.

the units that almost never saw the game, and are still to expensive, even for their now decreased cost, have gotten a miserable update, from all of those updated units I’m at least happy to say that 1 of them might see the table now.

for the rest of the units, I guess they are just a lost call.

 

as for a positive side, the amulet seems to have gotten a lot less attractive, which I personally do appreciate,

Yes-yes

If the book is soon, they may have long ago moved on creatively and are long in the headspace of fundamental revisions. That might be the case with many languishing factions in the update - they require major work, or the studio has done major work to them already in publications due in the next year and a half, and thus sees not much point in too many changes in this document?

[ArcaneLore74]

My 1250 pt Khorne dragon got murdered by 400 pt Gotrek at my last tournament lol. If anything I think he could use another 300 or 400 pts

[yukishiro1]

35 minutes ago, novakai said:

Coalition rules seem like an attempt to keep those marked mixed army legal but it seem like they are going away from that kind of souping so now it just there but not really a compelling options to use coalition units

Yeah, and that's fine if they do it the way they did with the Nurgle book where the book gets a rework at the same time. But it's a kick in the teeth to take away one of the few things that makes a book work and give nothing back in return, especially when that book is already low-tier competitively. 

It seems very odd that a so-called "balance patch" ends up nerfing several weaker factions more strongly than it nerfs any of the strong factions. 

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Cronotekk]

All of CoS and especially Living City got nerfed HARD in this update

-Coalition units no longer benefit from allegiance abilities

So all those stormcast and sylvaneth units are now dead weight.

[yukishiro1]

That only impacts Chaos because <reasons>. Cities still has real coalition that gets allegiance abilities and subfactions. Go figure, they just really wanted to nerf those meta-dominating Khorne and Slaanesh lists I guess. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by yukishiro1

[readercolin]

5 minutes ago, Cronotekk said:

All of CoS and especially Living City got nerfed HARD in this update

-Coalition units no longer benefit from allegiance abilities

So all those stormcast and sylvaneth units are now dead weight.

Cities still gets good coalition rules because Stormcast/sylvaneth gain the Cities of Sigmar keyword And the city keyword.

It doesn't work for Chaos because the coalition gets the god keyword, but no the faction keyword.  This would be like getting the cities of sigmar keyword, but not living city keyword.  So nurgle has the Nurgle Keyword, and the Maggotkin of Nurgle keyword, and most of their allegience abilities are Maggotkin of Nurgle, while coalition is just getting the Nurgle keyword.

[NauticalSoup]

2 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Scaled Grade given GW's past performance: B-

I'll have to remember to include this in future critical commentary lol

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

20 minutes ago, petitionercity said:

If the book is soon, they may have long ago moved on creatively and are long in the headspace of fundamental revisions. That might be the case with many languishing factions in the update - they require major work, or the studio has done major work to them already in publications due in the next year and a half, and thus sees not much point in too many changes in this document?

For what it's worth, that's exactly how it has worked in the past. Legions of Nagash is an example of this: The battletome was kinda just left to deteriorate for a year. Abilities kept breaking with general changes from GHBs and other updates and very little was done to keep the book competitive. But then, of course, Soulblight Gravelords came around.

I don't doubt at least some of the worst armies right now have a battletome on the way. The question is just which ones and how soon.

[Howdyhedberg]

27 minutes ago, Cronotekk said:

All of CoS and especially Living City got nerfed HARD in this update

-Coalition units no longer benefit from allegiance abilities

So all those stormcast and sylvaneth units are now dead weight.

I gave up on my living city when the lumineth came out... But I feel its even worse now!

20 minutes ago, readercolin said:

Cities still gets good coalition rules because Stormcast/sylvaneth gain the Cities of Sigmar keyword And the city keyword.

It doesn't work for Chaos because the coalition gets the god keyword, but no the faction keyword.  This would be like getting the cities of sigmar keyword, but not living city keyword.  So nurgle has the Nurgle Keyword, and the Maggotkin of Nurgle keyword, and most of their allegience abilities are Maggotkin of Nurgle, while coalition is just getting the Nurgle keyword.

Or wait. like someone said, its just Chaos!

From CoS Errata:

COALITION UNITS Coalition units do not count towards the number of Battleline units in your army. However, they do count towards the maximum number of Leader, Behemoth and Artillery units in your army. Coalition units cannot be generals, with the exception of Aventis Firestrike in a Hammerhal army. In addition, Coalition units are ignored when determining if the units in your army are from a single faction

It also says in the CoS profile in the app that the Sylvaneth and Stormcast get the "living city" and Cities of Sigmar keyword. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Howdyhedberg

[Gailon]

2 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Scaled Grade given GW's past performance: B-

Scaling based on GW's past performance I feel like this gets an A just for actually being released in December, and with over a week to spare! 

[Skreech Verminking]

59 minutes ago, Gailon said:

Scaling based on GW's past performance I feel like this gets an A just for actually being released in December, and with over a week to spare! 

I’d give it a D, for ignoring the problems of the rat folk.

 

[Gesundheit]

By by my Little Pink Horror Friends….. 35P instead of Good rules just a dumb Point change….

[zilberfrid]

5 hours ago, madmac said:

Brokk's problem these days is that the generic ballooner hero is basically the same thing but cheaper, and with command traits and artifacts is just flat-out better. The better, generic guy is still 20 points cheaper, so...sorry Brokk.

I think Brokk deals more damage, so there is half a reason for inclusion in Tempest's Eye. But then, TE stopped working in AoS 3, so there's that.

[Chumphammer]

I did a good run through of the leaks from the 15th and todays FAQ

I really loved how spot on the leaks were...

[Zeblasky]

9 hours ago, chosen_of_khaine said:

Sentinels are terrible against Archaon and Nagash due to their 4+ wards vs Mortal Wounds. Also, I haven't seen a single competitive lists that brings 60 sentinels.

I'm going to pick on you for a sec here so I apologize, but comments like this are everywhere on AoS forums, completely exaggerating both the output and misinterpreting/misrepresenting the actual issues with the game right now - to the point that hating on certain armies/units is a complete meme lacking any actual constructive commentary. The increasing popularity of content creators like Vince Venturella (who is way overconfident in his often bad takes) leads to opinions about top level comptetive play trickling down to casual players who don't understand the game well enough to be criticizing balance.

/rant

Anyways, I think +20 points and the unleash hell nerf will bring Sentinels to a good place competitively.

There was nothing else in the game that could kill them though (besides instant death). Only a lot of mortal wounds and 0 rend hits could work. Sure, 60 sentinelts is a bit of exaggeration, it could be done with 40, appropriate buffs and a bit of luck, but still. 30 Namarti Reavers with Curse and double turn could pull that off as well by the way. Archaon with his 3+ save stacking was slightly more manageable, sure, because he could be killed by rolling 20 ones on his saves, but with 2+ save ignoring rend 2 you would need 120 one damage attacks on average to get through. Seems very reasonable? And Nagash was even worse, he could easily ignore rend as well, rerolled his saves of one, he was literally unkillable versus anything but instant death, a LOT of mortals or a string of a very, very bad luck. And both of them could heal very well too, so you'd better kill them in a turn or a double.

 

Yea, sure, some armies could try to take 1 turn and kill both of them before they would get their buffs up, but proper screens and Finest Hour can make that tast quite impossible as well. Some top players in my country were  playing Archaon and Nagash, but most of others were just focused on ignoring them completely and just scoring what they could. Now there is at least some point in attacking them and reasonably killing them off instead of killing everything else and running around from Nagash with 5 arcane bolts on the ready.

 

Edit: oh, and just to clarify my position on this - was it possible to win versus Archaon or Nagash? Yes, of course, and it was not too hard for some armies, even I could do it. But you were playing around those models, engaging with them as less as possible. That is not a fun concept.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Ragest]

Last year they said that they had no data so the meta stay the same.

This year they have tons of data, even wonderful metawatches in their own website and the meta stay the same.

What they want to achieve with such underwhelming changes? What the game have got lowering 10 points to blood warriors? How two armies with 60% winrate can be the same after a "balance update"? 

I just can't understand what they want with this. 

[Zeblasky]

7 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

Or -and hear me out- you could pay the additional points to bring a phoenix which can't be killed in the first place 😛

Here the thing though. I've played ~14 games with Frost Phoenix in the Living City for the last 2 month mostly versus quite competitive and nastly builds, and I've learned very quick, that sure, Phoenix is quite tanky, he can hold his own very well, but he's nowhere near unkillable. He can tank very well for his points, but versus some armies he can easily die in a single phase even with +2 to his save. Stacking +3 helps quite much better, but still, he is good, but 4+ base save is not 3+. I once even had a mirror with one of the best Cities players worldwide, when 2 of our Frost Phoenixes with Anointed dueled in the middle and both mysteriously done 5 wounds to each other in a single combat phase. But I've killed that Phoenix in that game, yet I did not killed his general, who was General on a Griffon. Both because my Sisters of the Watch failed to do an expected amount of damage (bad rolls, oh well), AND because even then he could still teleport and ruin my game, my battle tactic and my scoring. This is why this teleport is amazing, not just because you can come back with this Griffon later, but also because it denies you a monster kill and 2 potential battle tactics. In short, Frost Phoenix is reasonably tanky, but General on a Griffon is actually pretty much unkillable in most scenarious if you do not want to risk him after popping the mount trait.
 

 

8 hours ago, EntMan said:

The nerf to unleash hell is a further nerf to Sisters of the Watch and Freeguild Handgunners 😞

Weeell, this does not do much to them really, their warscroll overwatch will be largely unaffected, unless we're talking about 30 models in a slightly dispersed formation. Oh, and due to Irondrake nerf, Sisters are once again take the cake of being better without any buffs applied. And due to save stacking, which Sisters ignore, they are quite better versus some high priority targets as well.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Feii]

1 hour ago, Ragest said:

Last year they said that they had no data so the meta stay the same.

This year they have tons of data, even wonderful metawatches in their own website and the meta stay the same.

What they want to achieve with such underwhelming changes? What the game have got lowering 10 points to blood warriors? How two armies with 60% winrate can be the same after a "balance update"? 

I just can't understand what they want with this. 

At least they showed us how a competent writer writes a fun warscroll. Kragnos buffs are huge and extremely fun. 
 

I can already picture some epic late game moments when you move and charge 12+ inches with the bottom bracketed Kragnos in the late game then wipe a monster and get hold of an objective with your counts as  18 models Kragboss. So much fun!!! 
 

 

maybe if they released him with this warscroll my LGS wouldnt have 7 leftover kragnoses from summer meanwhile they have had 0 Kroaks 0 revenants for months released at the same time earlier this year.

[Feii]

[novakai]

5 hours ago, Beliman said:

Bloodstalkers, Salamanders and Sentinels had a point increase (maybe not big enough but it's not better than before) and Unleash Hell is not as strong as pre-patch unleash.
Maybe not what people wanted, but it's still a nerf to ranged (to hit rolls) mortal wounds.

I am also guessing with the Nurgle book coming into the meta that they may actually have good match up against some of these MW shooting armies (specifically LRL) even if they may not be good against army like Sons

[Doko]

1 hour ago, Ragest said:

Last year they said that they had no data so the meta stay the same.

This year they have tons of data, even wonderful metawatches in their own website and the meta stay the same.

What they want to achieve with such underwhelming changes? What the game have got lowering 10 points to blood warriors? How two armies with 60% winrate can be the same after a "balance update"? 

I just can't understand what they want with this. 

Yes,we have hundreds of tournaments showing us as gargants are broken,morathi,teclis etc.......and also we have these tournaments showing us as gotrek isnt in almost any 5\0 list.

But we have many people (that dont know how play) that cry about gotrek and he is nerfed,but in competitive where people know how play gotrek is useless(ok not useless but not even close to top tier)

But what does gw?nerf broken units as gargants or morathi and dont change a second tier unit as gotrek? Nop,better buff gargants with a decrease in points to giants and buff morathi so she know every spell now and get a huuuuuge nerf of 50 to gotrek.

Also a random nerf to irondrakes,a unit that isnt used in almost any 5\0 cos lists,yes many 3\2 or 4\1 have them,but with so huge handicaps as cant move the top players know play around them.

So a unit of a middle tier army as cos and a unit that isnt even in their top lists get a nerf but units broken as demons princes,maw krushas,fulminators,new kruelboys archers etc get nothing.

Yes 10 points nerf to irondrakes isnt nothing(around 30 points for a full list), but is the fact that a unit of a middle tier army get a nerf while broken god tier armys as gargants go freely with 0 nerfs and even buffs.

This only shows how good is the work of gw balancing his game and the concept that they have when they tells us that have playtesters balancing the game.

I know this is a stupid rant,but really in what world any people that know the meta can think in nerf a unit in city of sigmar and then give a buff to gargants.........also as is posible gotrek get so huge knejerk nerf(haters won as happened with sc dragons seems) but maw krushas,morathi etc get nothing.

Is more the fact that they nerfed middle tier units and the top tier units got 0 changes than the numbers,because only gotrek got a huge nerf,others nerfs are very small and almost no impact in any list

[Rachmani]

It’s a start, I guess!

Lots of work to be done, but hey, for a winter FAQ it‘s not that little.

In the context of bold moves needed for the top and bottom brackets, well it’s simply not enough.

[Zeblasky]

40 minutes ago, Feii said:

To be fait about Blissarbs, they are a unit in a faction that has summons and can use those summons quite effectively at that, both for objective capping and opponent killing. Every unit in their roster costs around 25% more because of that, otherwise it would not be fair.