AoS 3 New Rules Discussion

[Warfiend]

On 6/29/2021 at 7:16 PM, Fred1245 said:

People said that at the start of AoS 2.0 when Kroak was doing 100 mortals per turn and Grots did 64 damage per swing, too.

How did that end again? Was it that everything turned out to be fine and there were no significant issues?

Oh wait, no. They FAQed it all away because it was stupid.

I think you made my point for me. none of those things ever happened.

[Acrozatarim]

2 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

So overall I do think that Redeploy and Unleash Hell are interesting mechanics, and definitely add something extra to the game, particularly for the non active player.

It's clear though that it has reduced the effectiveness of melee and boosted shooting, but here we are.

I would like to have seen some bonuses to melee as well, perhaps a command point to gain +x" to charge, or +1 attack if you successfully charge a unit that redeployed, or redeployed units cannot receive command points until their next movement phase.

Given the narrower distance between deployment zones, since it's been reduced down to just an 18" gap from 24" previous, melee specialists have already been given an effective 6" bonus to getting into melee compared to how it used to be.

[Reinholt]

2 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

So overall I do think that Redeploy and Unleash Hell are interesting mechanics, and definitely add something extra to the game, particularly for the non active player.

My specific problem with Unleash Hell is that what it adds is significantly more efficiency for already powerful shooting units.

I know people are going on specifically about Sentinels (a problem), but there's Vanguard Raptors (both flavors, now), Ironclads, Salamanders, Flamers, etc. that are going to pop up all over the place. Unleash Hell would be acceptable in a world where shooting was underpowered and/or you couldn't take shooting units that had insane punch at scale, but that's not the gamespace we are in. There are many units that are going to be a real problem with it, and given the points on those units did not go up dramatically, I think this puts the game in a very negative space.

Essentially, you have given a potential plus ~35% (for units that could double tap) to plus ~70% efficiency boost to strong shooting units, as they can now shoot 50% or 100% more often at some reduced efficiency (hence my knocking down the percentages above). I will re-iterate that these were already the most powerful units in the game with the largest impact on the meta. So while melee has more restrictions, shooting was increased in power, in a meta where shooting was already the thing.

This is why I maintain Unleash Hell is going to be a real problem. I've played test games with it. It's absolutely great. I will totally be building armies to abuse it if I intend to go to a tournament and win. If you're playing against someone and they do that, you cannot be playing a basic couple of units here and there theme style army and think you're going to have a fun game; you're not, you're going to get run over like a dump truck running over a beach ball.

If anyone doesn't think it is a problem, I challenge you to play against a solidly competitive Lumineth, Seraphon, KO, or Shootcast list and tell me how that game goes for you with the new rules. It's not going to be fun, and that's my core concern here, because that drives people away from the game and kills enthusiasm, like when WFB died off for a bit in my area when the Daemons book was super oppressive.

[PJetski]

Getting shot by 6 raptors or 2 salamanders at -1 to hit is really not that big of a deal.

Raptors in particular are expensive and fragile. They could also have totally different rules in a couple weeks, so it's not worth putting up a stink about them.

[Boar]

2 hours ago, tripchimeras said:

With all the focus on unleash hell, I think the rend/armor mod situation shouldn't be lost sight of.  I think its mostly been discussed as a point of confusion rather then concern, but I think its going to exacerbate the mortal spam issues. 

It creates a situation where rend is significantly devalued and the more durable units in the game, most of whom were already very competitive, become incredibly more powerful.  This causes even more emphasis in the competitive game on mortal wound generation as the only way to effectively combat these units, and just contributes to the shooting spiral 2nd had already started, and that unleash hell potentially makes worse. 

There is some valid concern here I think. KO player that sometimes is on Aethercast reported after his first games of 3.0 that often he would face targets with effective 2+ save (usually stronger units that start on 3+ already, with mix of cover, mystic shield, all out defense, finest hour, and in case of Seraphon their abilities and spells), and yes that is with -1 rend of KO taken into account.

So in that case unleash hell could become very important to compete for army like KO.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Boar

[Vaporlocke]

2 hours ago, Ian Wallsh said:

I don't get why people hate Lumineth so much....?

Sure the rules could do with a little tweaking 'here and there'...

But their beautiful figures with exquisite Lore and inspiring stories about them..

Surely a 'bad general blames the rulebook ' applies here and it's up to the opposing player to use all their cunning, ingenuity and luck to beat them.....?

Remember 'The greater the odds the greater the glory' and if a General is truly worth his/her 'Salt' they will prevail...

Yeah, if I mained an army that was getting everything twisted their way I would try to deflect it off as the other person just not being good rather than me playing on easy mode and wanting it to stay that way too. 

[JustAsPlanned]

2 minutes ago, Vaporlocke said:

Yeah, if I mained an army that was getting everything twisted their way I would try to deflect it off as the other person just not being good rather than me playing on easy mode and wanting it to stay that way too. 

Honestly dude I kinda want us to get nerfed. At least that way every other rules thread won’t just devolve into “sentinels bad, Lumineth baaaaaaad 😭” which in turn lead to reactionary responses from Loomie players who feel attacked. It’d just make things a whole lot easier lol

[readercolin]

1 hour ago, Reinholt said:

If anyone doesn't think it is a problem, I challenge you to play against a solidly competitive Lumineth, Seraphon, KO, or Shootcast list and tell me how that game goes for you with the new rules. It's not going to be fun, and that's my core concern here, because that drives people away from the game and kills enthusiasm, like when WFB died off for a bit in my area when the Daemons book was super oppressive.

Are lumineth a problem?  Yes.  Sentinels are an issue, and need a nerf.  If they didn't have their 30" range ignore LOS shot, or didn't have their mortal wounds, they wouldn't be the problem that they are.  But the fact that they can basically cover the entire board and blow up small hero's, chip away at big monsters, and still unleash hell when someone charges their screen makes them a bit broken.

But then lets look at those other factions you mentioned.

Shootcast.  The old shootcast lists worked on the principle of taking a block of 9 longstrikes, shooting in the hero phase, and shooting again in the shooting phase.  Reinforcement rules say you can no longer do that - the max you can have is a squad of 6 longstrikes.  What do 6 longstrikes do? 6-7 damage (depending upon save) in the shooting phase, and 5-6 if they unleash hell.  Previously, they were doing 10-11 damage per shot.  If we compare previously, an anvils shootcast list used to put out 20 damage per turn (hero phase and shooting phase).  Now, if a squad of 6 can shoot in the hero phase, shooting phase, AND unleash hell, they are putting out 19 damage.  Don't charge near them? down to only 12-14.  Additionally, at 2 wounds per model with a 4+ save, a squad of 6 has 12 wounds total, for 370 points.  This is in the range of "I charge with just about any melee unit and wipe at least half of them out from the charge - even after they unleashed hell on me".  Try putting 2 units of longstrikes in your list, and your second unit is half the punching power of the first, because of the restriction on command abilities only being able to be used once per phase.  Will people still try that?  Sure.  But I have a very strong feeling that that playstyle is now dead, just because it was already struggling to do well in 2.0 and the nerfs to it aren't helping.

Next up, KO.  Lets take the best shooter in the KO force - an Ironclad.  An Ironclad will put out ~15 damage to a 6+ save, ~10 to a 4+, and ~5 to a 2+.  When doing unleash hell, this changes to ~11 to a 6+, 7 to a 4+, and 4 to a 2+.  Is this good?  Yes - and it damn well better be, because that Ironclad ain't going to do anything in melee, and that is literally 1/4 of your army.  However, you will notice that the ironclad is extremely affected by saves.  Want to charge it with a blob of chaff?  You are probably going to regret it.  Want to charge your big beefy monster into it?  It might manage to bracket the monster, but that monster is then probably going to melt it in return.  Additionally, the monster can use the various monstrous abilities, and the Ironclad cannot.

Does all of this mean that KO is a pushover?  Nope.  They are probably still a pretty solid army.  However, between losing battalions, general points increases, the smaller tables giving them less room to maneuver (and their opponents an easier time getting in close), and buffs to monsters and magic, KO aren't really coming out ahead in this race.

Lastly, Seraphon.  If what you are worried about is Salamanders unleashing hell, all I can say is "lol".  Unleashing hell, you can expect a reinforced unit of salamanders to do ~2 damage.  Is it bastiladon's that cause you fear?  Well, a normal bastilladon shooting attack deals 6 damage to a 6+ save, or 4 damage when unleashing hell.  Yes, you can do tricks with them to shoot in the hero phase, but this means a single bastiladon went from 12 damage per turn to 16 - and from 8 to 10 against a 4+ save.  Was it the skinks with 2 attacks each doing mortals on 6's?  Ok, these are actually mildly scary, but keep in mind that they have been nerfed from 40 man blobs to 30 man blobs (and restricted them so they can only run 2 of those at most), and with only a 16" range they are fairly vulnerable to being charged from outside their range, meaning they get 1 unleash hell before they are deleted from the board.

In every single one of these cases EXCEPT for the sentinels, we can see that one aspect or another of the core rules changes is swinging the pendulum away from them.  Whether it is buffs to monsters, nerfs to unit size, or changes to command point usage, they are all feeling some sort of effect from these changes that reduces their comparative effectiveness.  Does this mean that non-lumineth shooting is dead?  No - I fully expect shooting to be part of the meta going forward.  But I HIGHLY doubt that non-lumineth shooting is going to kill every other army and playstyle out there.

All this being said, Sentinels are clearly overtuned for what they can do, and either need a significant points increase, or need to lose either their extra range or their mortal wounds.

Edited June 30, 2021 by readercolin

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, Reinholt said:

Unleash Hell would be acceptable in a world where shooting was underpowered and/or you couldn't take shooting units that had insane punch at scale, but that's not the gamespace we are in.

Couldn't we just use, man what's the name for it again, um, tactics - yes, tactics! - to handle it?

In all seriousness, you can do it once per turn. So send in sacrificial units first, tie up the nasty shooters, turn engage with the good stuff.

I know it's not a sure fire thing, and that not all armies have throw away troops, but many do, and those that don't can look for other answers.

The game presents us with challenges and puzzles, and part of the fun is answering them and figuring out solutions.

[CeleFAZE]

3 hours ago, Ian Wallsh said:

I don't get why people hate Lumineth so much....?

Sure the rules could do with a little tweaking 'here and there'...

But their beautiful figures with exquisite Lore and inspiring stories about them..

Surely a 'bad general blames the rulebook ' applies here and it's up to the opposing player to use all their cunning, ingenuity and luck to beat them.....?

Remember 'The greater the odds the greater the glory' and if a General is truly worth his/her 'Salt' they will prevail...

The problem with Lumineth is that they bypass a lot of the built in limitations of the game in a way that is strictly advantageous. Sure, generalship helps, but the opponent is working with a handicap to start, which means if both players are of the same skill level the LRL player has a leg up.

[Vaporlocke]

35 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Couldn't we just use, man what's the name for it again, um, tactics - yes, tactics! - to handle it?

In all seriousness, you can do it once per turn. So send in sacrificial units first, tie up the nasty shooters, turn engage with the good stuff.

I know it's not a sure fire thing, and that not all armies have throw away troops, but many do, and those that don't can look for other answers.

The game presents us with challenges and puzzles, and part of the fun is answering them and figuring out solutions.

So do people not screen their shooting units where you play or what? 

[Sleboda]

7 minutes ago, Vaporlocke said:

So do people not screen their shooting units where you play or what? 

Sure they do, but that sort of speaks to my point of using tactics and the fun of figuring out the puzzle.

[Andalf]

.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Andalf
Wrong info

[Zeblasky]

Honestly, at this point when I see people using Sentinels as a sole example as why shooting is overpowered and it all needs to be nerfed, I have a strong urge to use Cygor as a sole example to prove the opposite and advocate for universal shooting buffs. Just so Cygor could get the justice he deserves of course (/s).

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Zappgrot]

12 hours ago, Ian Wallsh said:

I don't get why people hate Lumineth so much....?

Sure the rules could do with a little tweaking 'here and there'...

But their beautiful figures with exquisite Lore and inspiring stories about them..

Surely a 'bad general blames the rulebook ' applies here and it's up to the opposing player to use all their cunning, ingenuity and luck to beat them.....?

Remember 'The greater the odds the greater the glory' and if a General is truly worth his/her 'Salt' they will prevail...

I hope this was sarcastic.  Cause otherwise. this is why 

[Abstract_duck]

12 hours ago, Ian Wallsh said:

I don't get why people hate Lumineth so much....?

Sure the rules could do with a little tweaking 'here and there'...

But their beautiful figures with exquisite Lore and inspiring stories about them..

Surely a 'bad general blames the rulebook ' applies here and it's up to the opposing player to use all their cunning, ingenuity and luck to beat them.....?

Remember 'The greater the odds the greater the glory' and if a General is truly worth his/her 'Salt' they will prevail...

You should try Beasts of Chaos or Sylvaneth for some of that sweet glory - There will indeed be sufficient salt to be worthy of.  

Edited July 1, 2021 by Abstract_duck

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

Honestly, at this point when I see people using Sentinels as a sole example as why shooting is overpowered and it all needs to be nerfed, I have a strong urge to use Cygor as a sole example to prove the opposite and advocate for universal shooting buffs. Just so Cygor could get the justice he deserves of course (/s).

 

I agree, focussing on Sentinels to the point of excluding other shooting units that get a boost is counter-productive.

There are actually a lot of previously strong shooting units that have received quite a substantial boost from Unleash Hell, especially those with mid-range shooting and the ability to ignore or mitigate the -1 to hit. Freeguild Handgunners, Sisters of the Watch, Gyrocopters, Warpfire Throwers and Warp Lightning Cannons definitely all got a substantial boost. I am sure there are others, too. Those units were not previously part of the discussion like Sentinels were, so they don't get brought up as much. But they are now pretty dangerous.

I see people generally discuss long-range shooting units like Sentinels and Ironclads at the moment, and I think it's mostly because they were the dominant type of shooting unit before. But I still maintain that the units that benefit the most from Unleash Hell are those that previously could not safely shoot at enemies from outside of those enemies' threat range. Handgunners are a good example. They can currently double overwatch when they get charged and Cities has access to enough hit and wound buffs that they can theoretically do it at +1/+1 (although just +1 to hit is more likely). They put up really solid numbers now:

Save	Handgunners (double overwatch +1 to hit)
2+	8.89
3+	13.33
4+	17.78
5+	22.22
6+	26.67
-	26.67

I am more scared of these guys than Sentinels because they are way more points efficient and the distance between ~10 mortals from Lumineth and ~9 wounds against a 2+ is really not very big. Plus, Handgunners deal way better damage than Sentinels against low saves.

For Sentinels, Unleash Hell is a nice bonus. They want to hang back out of range, but now they can also support nearby friendly units that get charged and they are no longer free to shut down if you charge them with chaff. Handgunners, on the other hand, need to be charge range of most enemies (18" reach, don't want to move to get their buffs). They benefit a lot more from Unleash Hell, since they have to worry a lot more about getting charged in the first place.

[Greybeard86]

11 hours ago, readercolin said:

But then lets look at those other factions you mentioned.

Next up, KO.  Lets take the best shooter in the KO force - an Ironclad.  An Ironclad will put out ~15 damage to a 6+ save, ~10 to a 4+, and ~5 to a 2+.  When doing unleash hell, this changes to ~11 to a 6+, 7 to a 4+, and 4 to a 2+.  Is this good?  Yes - and it damn well better be, because that Ironclad ain't going to do anything in melee, and that is literally 1/4 of your army.  However, you will notice that the ironclad is extremely affected by saves.  Want to charge it with a blob of chaff?  You are probably going to regret it.  Want to charge your big beefy monster into it?  It might manage to bracket the monster, but that monster is then probably going to melt it in return.  Additionally, the monster can use the various monstrous abilities, and the Ironclad cannot.

I think you fail to account for the true effect of unleash hell. It is not to simply shoot and unbuffed salvo an extra time, as you report here.

It is to shoot potentially up to two (weaker) additional times over the previous edition.

Unleash hell works very well with screens. Shoot when they charge the screen, shoot in your regular phase, then shoot when they charge the ironclad (or whatever shooting unit). That is the potential damage you have to face if you decide to charge with your "big beefy monster" into the ironclad. That is, ~10 additional damage over the previous iteration of the game even for a well armored opponent (and we didn't use any buffs here, it could get quite a bit worse).

You may argue that it is possible to use weaker units and multicharges to charge ranged units and potentially force unleash hell. But that was possible before too, unleash hell just made it less viable, as it means that the odds of tying up the enemy ranged unit with chaff diminish. Now they just added counterplay to this move, which becomes more of a requirement (as directly charging is less viable due to unleash hell).

If ranged units were underpowered and the meta favored melee, this would tilt the balance towards ranged. Given that it is the opposite, this is aggravating.

[lare2]

Has this just become the Unleash Hell thread? 

[Greybeard86]

7 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Has this just become the Unleash Hell thread? 

I guess it is about whatever aspect of the new rules people want to discuss. It's just that unleash hell is the most polarizing.

Finally, a suggestion. Unleash hell may only be used against an enemy that charges the unit directly. At least that tones it down a bit.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Has this just become the Unleash Hell thread? 

It's just one of the two most contentious new rules, along with coherency.

Personally, I think it's an expansion of the design space of shooting that seems out of place now, but allows the game to move into a direction where close and mid range shooting become more viable. In AoS 2, I think it was mainly overtuned long-range shooting that was good (Sentinels, OBR Crawlers, KO boats, Shootcast...). Close and mid-range shooting was not nearly as valuable, since the danger of being shut down or just charged off the table was much higher for those units. We can see this with units like Cities Irondrakes, which put out better damage than all the examples above, but were not nearly as meta defining.

I think that having a command ability that can help mid-range shooting units to once a round protect themselves and other friendlies from enemy charges will be a big boost to those kinds of units. It encourages armies to bring one substantial unit of mid-range shooting to benefit from the strength of this tool, and notabily does not encourage spamming those units because bringing extra units does not give you more uses of unleash hell per turn. I think this means that there is now a way that shooting units can be valuable that is less inherently unfun than getting your heroes shot off the table from 30" away, so in a way Unleash Hell has the potential to contribute to "fixing" shooting in AoS. It's just that many of the current shooting units that people don't like also benefit, which will probably make them more egregious at least in the short term until they get points and rules adjustments.

[MitGas]

15 hours ago, Ian Wallsh said:

But their beautiful figures with exquisite Lore and inspiring stories about them..

Mostly really, really goofy looking is what you wanted to say!

[Greybeard86]

16 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

 It encourages armies to bring one substantial unit of mid-range shooting to benefit from the strength of this tool, and notabily does not encourage spamming those units because bringing extra units does not give you more uses of unleash hell per turn. I think this means that there is now a way that shooting units can be valuable that is less inherently unfun than getting your heroes shot off the table from 30" away, so in a way Unleash Hell has the potential to contribute to "fixing" shooting in AoS. It's just that many of the current shooting units that people don't like also benefit, which will probably make them more egregious at least in the short term until they get points and rules adjustments.

Does it encourage single units, though? I was thinking about crossfire. Having a couple such units guarantees you'll get the potential for 2 more volleys even if the attacker has some shenanigans and gets into one of the shooters.

[stus67]

hey guys is this the unleash hell ptsd group thread or did I come to the wrong place?

[Doko]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I agree, focussing on Sentinels to the point of excluding other shooting units that get a boost is counter-productive.

There are actually a lot of previously strong shooting units that have received quite a substantial boost from Unleash Hell, especially those with mid-range shooting and the ability to ignore or mitigate the -1 to hit. Freeguild Handgunners, Sisters of the Watch, Gyrocopters, Warpfire Throwers and Warp Lightning Cannons definitely all got a substantial boost. I am sure there are others, too. Those units were not previously part of the discussion like Sentinels were, so they don't get brought up as much. But they are now pretty dangerous.

I see people generally discuss long-range shooting units like Sentinels and Ironclads at the moment, and I think it's mostly because they were the dominant type of shooting unit before. But I still maintain that the units that benefit the most from Unleash Hell are those that previously could not safely shoot at enemies from outside of those enemies' threat range. Handgunners are a good example. They can currently double overwatch when they get charged and Cities has access to enough hit and wound buffs that they can theoretically do it at +1/+1 (although just +1 to hit is more likely). They put up really solid numbers now:

Save	Handgunners (double overwatch +1 to hit)
2+	8.89
3+	13.33
4+	17.78
5+	22.22
6+	26.67
-	26.67

I am more scared of these guys than Sentinels because they are way more points efficient and the distance between ~10 mortals from Lumineth and ~9 wounds against a 2+ is really not very big. Plus, Handgunners deal way better damage than Sentinels against low saves.

For Sentinels, Unleash Hell is a nice bonus. They want to hang back out of range, but now they can also support nearby friendly units that get charged and they are no longer free to shut down if you charge them with chaff. Handgunners, on the other hand, need to be charge range of most enemies (18" reach, don't want to move to get their buffs). They benefit a lot more from Unleash Hell, since they have to worry a lot more about getting charged in the first place.

So you are putting handgunners with a +2 hit buff vs sentinels unbuffed.

Now lets compare them with sentinels with +2 hit also(ca and the spell) and rerrolling all hit and see the numbers

And btw if they get his overwatch is with enemys at 3" so they loose his +1 hit innate.

So yes hard compare a unit that need have enemys at 3" and isnt mage to a unit that do the same(with less support) being mage and from safe behind a screen.

I dont say handgunners are bad,they are great. But is imposible compare them to sentinels.

Sentinels output isnt the problem. Is the fact how easy and 0 counterplay have