AoS 3 New Rules Discussion

[Mcthew]

6 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Depedning on the points increase/decrease and unit size chances (stormvermin to min size 20) I could see the vile ratman doing great in the new edition as well

Totally agree. Base sizes fit with coherency better. Good mix of shooting (ratlings, warpfires, stormfiends and that warp lightning canon is gonna be a nightmare to deal with now under Unleash Hell), and tough melee choices with clanrats and stormvermin. Sure more will run, but you gotta get close to them first with unit coherency, and only other strong shooting armies stand a chance against buffed ratty heroes, monsters and wizards.

Although it'll be hilarious to see a warlock engineer fail on both a warpspark and a miscast in the same phase! Blowing themselves up is what Skaven do best!

[Skreech Verminking]

14 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

Although it'll be hilarious to see a warlock engineer fail on both a warpspark and a miscast in the same phase! Blowing themselves up is what Skaven do best!

Happens all the time mate.

haven’t had a game were my stuff didn’t blow up at some point.

the last fun game I had, all of my warlock bombardiers (3) Died cause of badly placed doomrockets at the wrong time

[Acrozatarim]

The return of miscasting rules feels like one of the stranger bits of the new edition to me. Technically it's a nerf to spellcasting, but it's sufficiently rare to roll double 1 that it's not something you can meaningfully take into account with your choices in either listbuilding or playing during the actual battle.

[Aeryenn]

GW had one task with 3rd edition. To fix double turn. What did they actually do? Make it more powerful by encouraging to go second have chance for double turn. Bravo 

From the positives: heroic and monster actions. 

Negatives: removal of warscroll battalions. Whole broken realms books with warscroll battalions and boxes suggested that they stay. ****** move gw...

Edited June 14, 2021 by Aeryenn

[Third]

5 minutes ago, Aeryenn said:

GW had one task with 3rd edition. To fix double turn. What did they actually do? Make it more powerful by encouraging to go second and third have chance for double turn. Bravo

Let's agree to disagree shall we? I am borderline in love with the priority roll ❤️ and would probably stop playing if it was removed fully. 

Most of the new changes have me excited, and it looks to me to be a more dynamic game. 

Looking forward to see pitched battle profiles to get a better grasp on what the game will really look like 🙂

[Aeryenn]

13 minutes ago, Third said:

Let's agree to disagree shall we? I am borderline in love with the priority roll ❤️ and would probably stop playing if it was removed fully. 

Most of the new changes have me excited, and it looks to me to be a more dynamic game. 

Looking forward to see pitched battle profiles to get a better grasp on what the game will really look like 🙂

It didn't have to be removed. Simple things could have discouraged players from taking double turn. Idea:

Roll a dice for each of your unit if you have a double turn. 4+ nothing happens. 1-3 this unit suffers -1 to hit until the rest of the turn. Easy? Easy. This kind of things. Instead they give additional command point for someone that goes second and had a chance for double turn. Misunderstanding

[Ganigumo]

7 hours ago, BrotherTalarian said:

Cool, thanks for the reply! 
 

I fail to see your point about coherency. What makes it bad? Was standing shoulder to shoulder important? See my previous opinion about it, what makes it horrible for you? 
 

You mentioned the new battalions make list building uninspired. The old ones legit gave you no option. “Take these things for X buff”. It forced the player to take units. Now they have the option, and can choose themselves what to take, and what battalion to built towards.  Every army has access to them and puts the onus on the player to make a decision they want. I think it’s definitely an improvement to the old system. 
 

I actually love this CA. If you get double turned and moved close enough to the enemy, you don’t feel cheated and have the chance to retreats and prevent being charged. It’s also a tactical choice the player need to make. Use the CA, that is precious and can now be used in a dozen different ways, and MAYBE move far enough, or hold on to it, get charged, and use it elsewhere. All our defence, perhaps? 
 

UH I agree is very strong, I agree. I believe/hope it’s adjusting we need to do and strategize. Similar concept to using CPs wisely, though I feel we’ll see a lot of this. 
 

Another good point. Seeing as the reinforcement rules indicate that several armies will be smaller, at least MSU, it might not be as big of an issue. The point arises again where the player needs to decide how to spend their CP. 

Oh? Not familiar with the wizard thing, seems odd and not intended? 
 

overall I think it gives the player more agency, forces them to think and make decisions. I think that’s important and healthy for a game.  

 

Yeah, unfortunately they seem to be shifting min unit sizes etc. Which is definitely frustrating from a individual/purchase perspective -.- 

Everyone else has addressed the reach and coherency issues so I'll address the battalions and regroup.

The old ones were indeed "take this thing for 'x' buff" and the new ones are the same, but the old ones had a narrative connection, abilities that could be fun and tailored to your army that open up new playstyles, and pushed your list in a direction. Squigalanche was cool because of the narrative and composition, gourmand was fun because it gave you another pull at the buff slots, Witchfyre coven opened up Kairic acolytes as semi-legitimate damage dealers. Sure there were a lot that missed the mark but most books had at least a couple cool ones. 

 

Redeploy isn't necessarily terrible, but it's just another addition that punishes melee and slow units.

[Yondaime]

5 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Everyone else has addressed the reach and coherency issues so I'll address the battalions and regroup.

The old ones were indeed "take this thing for 'x' buff" and the new ones are the same, but the old ones had a narrative connection, abilities that could be fun and tailored to your army that open up new playstyles, and pushed your list in a direction. Squigalanche was cool because of the narrative and composition, gourmand was fun because it gave you another pull at the buff slots, Witchfyre coven opened up Kairic acolytes as semi-legitimate damage dealers. Sure there were a lot that missed the mark but most books had at least a couple cool ones. 

 

Redeploy isn't necessarily terrible, but it's just another addition that punishes melee and slow units.

People forget that is true that some battalions are indeed broken, but some are the only reason some armies can be vaguely competitive (tyrant of blood, alarith temple, lords of the lodge)

now these melee lists are worst and shooting is better 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Yondaime

[whispersofblood]

20 minutes ago, Aeryenn said:

It didn't have to be removed. Simple things could have discouraged players from taking double turn. Idea:

Roll a dice for each of your unit if you have a double turn. 4+ nothing happens. 1-3 this unit suffers -1 to hit until the rest of the turn. Easy? Easy. This kind of things. Instead they give additional command point for someone that goes second and had a chance for double turn. Misunderstanding

You understand that when you are receiving the double turn you get more CP so as to react to your opponent. For example moving the opponents movement phase, increasing saves, Unleash Hell, etc etc. You should have at least 3 CP and if you are very concerned about being doubled you can take a Core Battalion with Strategist for an additional CP when you get Double turned.

[Neverchosen]

Here are some 3.0 Batreps, I will not be able to watch them until tonight but I am excited to see people going through the new rules with actual models on the table. From what little I was able to glean they both indicate positive receptions to the new rules and seem like they will be fun games. I am still excited for this edition and I look forward to seeing some more games before I get my grubby mits on the rules. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Neverchosen

[Yondaime]

23 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

You understand that when you are receiving the double turn you get more CP so as to react to your opponent. For example moving the opponents movement phase, increasing saves, Unleash Hell, etc etc. You should have at least 3 CP and if you are very concerned about being doubled you can take a Core Battalion with Strategist for an additional CP when you get Double turned.

what do you’d choose

A cp

or the opportunity to shoot with your whole army two times in a row?

I’d go with the latter if i play a heavy shooting army

[Aeryenn]

15 minutes ago, Yondaime said:

what do you’d choose

A cp

or the opportunity to shoot with your whole army two times in a row?

I’d go with the latter if i play a heavy shooting army

Thanks. I don't have to explain anymore.

[whispersofblood]

2 minutes ago, Yondaime said:

what do you’d choose

A cp

or the opportunity to shoot with your whole army two times in a row?

I’d go with the latter if i play a heavy shooting army

Well at the moment I'm building lists (for multiple factions) that want to take the first turn, and give the opponent the double... so it is a situation choice. Also heavy shooting armies themselves are very vulnerable to the double, not just because of incoming enemy damage but because of the slow pace that they score points, often needing two player turns to secure objectives. 

Shooting armies are in a bind, because they need to rely on dictating the pace of the game, but many don't lend themselves nicely to being low drop. I think DoK might be the only one that can have a functional list and be 1 or 2 drop, but I don't really call them a shooting army. Just an army with a strong shooting portion. And, even there they start to run into points issues, as Morathi, an Ironscale, and 15 Blood Stalkers is pushing 1300 points very quickly if rumours of their new points cost are true. They also lose access to artefacts. You need to build your lists so that you can engage with your opponents CP pile, and force decisions. Hunting Generals, forcing the opponent to use CP they would rather use to shoot in the hero phase, etc, etc. Going Second means having your CP baited out if you are playing into the double turn, and having less CP when you take the top of the next battleround.

Also implicit in the double turn is a fresh opportunity to interrupt my opponents plans with unbinds, and denying prayers. While gaining more value from getting my own spells, prayers, and abilities for an addition player turn.

Most of the time you are experiencing a bad time on the double because you don't have control of the board. The new CMD abilities give players the ability to interact with the board state while retaining the unpredictability the priority role brings. 

[Third]

19 minutes ago, Yondaime said:

what do you’d choose

A cp

or the opportunity to shoot with your whole army two times in a row?

I’d go with the latter if i play a heavy shooting army

Care to clarify for those of us not so rule-savvy, which rules allow your whole army to shoot two times? 🤔

[Perturbato]

2 minutes ago, Third said:

Care to clarify for those of us not so rule-savvy, which rules allow your whole army to shoot two times? 🤔

Double turn. Yeah i'm not fond of "buff the second player". Right now, being able to have the double turn is possible by going 2nd before 😛 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Perturbato

[Yondaime]

1 minute ago, whispersofblood said:

Well at the moment I'm building lists (for multiple factions) that want to take the first turn, and give the opponent the double... so it is a situation choice. Also heavy shooting armies themselves are very vulnerable to the double, not just because of incoming enemy damage but because of the slow pace that they score points, often needing two player turns to secure objectives. 

Shooting armies are in a bind, because they need to rely on dictating the pace of the game, but many don't lend themselves nicely to being low drop. I think DoK might be the only one that can have a functional list and be 1 or 2 drop, but I don't really call them a shooting army. Just an army with a strong shooting portion. And, even there they start to run into points issues, as Morathi, an Ironscale, and 15 Blood Stalkers is pushing 1300 points very quickly if rumours of their new points cost are true. They also lose access to artefacts. You need to build your lists so that you can engage with your opponents CP pile, and force decisions. Hunting Generals, forcing the opponent to use CP they would rather use to shoot in the hero phase, etc, etc. Going Second means having your CP baited out if you are playing into the double turn, and having less CP when you take the top of the next battleround.

Also implicit in the double turn is a fresh opportunity to interrupt my opponents plans with unbinds, and denying prayers. While gaining more value from getting my own spells, prayers, and abilities for an addition player turn.

Most of the time you are experiencing a bad time on the double because you don't have control of the board. The new CMD abilities give players the ability to interact with the board state while retaining the unpredictability the priority role brings. 

Dont get me wrong, i love the concept of double turn, for the same reason you explained

The problem i have with it in AOS 2.0 (and also 3.0) is that its a huge advantage locked behind a dice roll, double or not, you can decide who goes first. and if you get double, the opponent gets cps

losing 4 initiative rolls in a game is beyond frustating

you know what would be a good fix to me? priority loser at start battle round 2 decide initiative at battle round 3, THAT is a high risk high reward example, if i get double now, most likely i will get double at turn 3 (turn where most of the time the game is decided)

[RuneBrush]

1 minute ago, Third said:

Care to clarify for those of us not so rule-savvy, which rules allow your whole army to shoot two times? 🤔

They mean your army gets to shoot in two consecutive turns without the opponent being able to actually do anything with their army.

[Fred1245]

5 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Well at the moment I'm building lists (for multiple factions) that want to take the first turn, and give the opponent the double... so it is a situation choice. Also heavy shooting armies themselves are very vulnerable to the double, not just because of incoming enemy damage but because of the slow pace that they score points, often needing two player turns to secure objectives. 

Shooting armies are in a bind, because they need to rely on dictating the pace of the game, but many don't lend themselves nicely to being low drop. I think DoK might be the only one that can have a functional list and be 1 or 2 drop, but I don't really call them a shooting army. Just an army with a strong shooting portion. And, even there they start to run into points issues, as Morathi, an Ironscale, and 15 Blood Stalkers is pushing 1300 points very quickly if rumours of their new points cost are true. They also lose access to artefacts. You need to build your lists so that you can engage with your opponents CP pile, and force decisions. Hunting Generals, forcing the opponent to use CP they would rather use to shoot in the hero phase, etc, etc. Going Second means having your CP baited out if you are playing into the double turn, and having less CP when you take the top of the next battleround.

Also implicit in the double turn is a fresh opportunity to interrupt my opponents plans with unbinds, and denying prayers. While gaining more value from getting my own spells, prayers, and abilities for an addition player turn.

Most of the time you are experiencing a bad time on the double because you don't have control of the board. The new CMD abilities give players the ability to interact with the board state while retaining the unpredictability the priority role brings. 

Firstly, why would you bring an ironscale over a bloodwrack in a shooting army? Second of all, DoK have been a shooting army since they torched most of our melee options. Most lists have 1 or 2 units of blood sister because witch aelves and Sisters of Slaughter are trash now, and that's it. We also ALREADY go without artefacts so who cares?

The rest of that is mostly wishful thinking. You're not going to be baiting out CP or doing cool tactics, you're going to be dying. If you manage to die slow enough that you're not fully neutered by the end of the double turn, congrats, you probably win! If you don't die slow enough, you lose.

Nothing you do with CP matters because the other player can just counter it with CP(they have more than you turn 1 remember?) DoK especially don't use prayers offensively anymore and with Morathi apparently losing her book spell, don't need those either. The question will be dice. Do they throw enough dice at you to heavily damage your counter attack? If yes, you lose, if no you win. Nothing else in the game matters but how many wounds you fail to save in the first two turns.

[Scurvydog]

Yea the new edition does not really "fix" the double turn, it even shifts the endless spells to be in favor of the one taking the turn, where before the one going second chose the first spell to move. 

The command points being generated at the start of the battle round is important though, especially considering the new responses, which gives more agency to the player who does not have the turn.

I get why players who hate the double turn are disappointed by this, at best, half measure, but if we are to deal with it, it is at least better than before.

Something completely different though with the generic artifacts and spell lore, I can't wait to have a wizard Mega Gargant with a flaming titanic club, that is going to be fun

[Ganigumo]

15 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Shooting armies are in a bind, because they need to rely on dictating the pace of the game, but many don't lend themselves nicely to being low drop. I think DoK might be the only one that can have a functional list and be 1 or 2 drop, but I don't really call them a shooting army. Just an army with a strong shooting portion. And, even there they start to run into points issues, as Morathi, an Ironscale, and 15 Blood Stalkers is pushing 1300 points very quickly if rumours of their new points cost are true. They also lose access to artefacts. You need to build your lists so that you can engage with your opponents CP pile, and force decisions. Hunting Generals, forcing the opponent to use CP they would rather use to shoot in the hero phase, etc, etc. Going Second means having your CP baited out if you are playing into the double turn, and having less CP when you take the top of the next battleround.

Double battle regiment can fit most armies into it. Things that gain the battleline keyword lose the behemoth keyword, so they would fill a troop slot instead of a monster slot

2 Leaders

0-4 sub-commanders

4-10 troops

0-2 in any combination of Monster and artillery.

Also the CP doesn't exactly fix the double turn for a different issue. You need to go second to be able to double. So by taking the second turn you ensure you get the first double, you get more CP until you do, and you protect yourself from the double turn.

[Marcvs]

1 minute ago, Scurvydog said:

Yea the new edition does not really "fix" the double turn, it even shifts the endless spells to be in favor of the one taking the turn, where before the one going second chose the first spell to move. 

The command points being generated at the start of the battle round is important though, especially considering the new responses, which gives more agency to the player who does not have the turn.

I get why players who hate the double turn are disappointed by this, at best, half measure, but if we are to deal with it, it is at least better than before.

Something completely different though with the generic artifacts and spell lore, I can't wait to have a wizard Mega Gargant with a flaming titanic club, that is going to be fun

I'd also say that many of the problems related to the double turn are related to shooting. IF shooting is toned down by points (the last thing I can still hope for) the new rules (CP mechanics, redeploy, all-out-defense and unleash hell, plus the already intrinsic IGYG nature of melee) would actually have a much stronger impact on the double turn

[KrispyXIV]

Why are people suggesting unique characters (like Morathi) lose access to spells from Spell Lores?

The unique character isn't taking the Spell Lore Enhancement, the Army is.  

The Spell Lore enhancement then lets all your wizards select a Lore Spell.

The idea that unique characters can't benefit indirectly from an enhancement is... a leap. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by KrispyXIV

[PJetski]

Every piece of terrain gives cover against shooting, and tables should have 8+ pieces of scenery.

All woods block line of sight, and there is a universal spell to make any piece of scenery block line of sight.

That is a tremendous nerf to shooting.

...except Lumineth Sentinels, obviously. They're not allowed to be nerfed.

Edited June 14, 2021 by PJetski

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Just now, PJetski said:

Every piece of terrain blocks line of sight, and tables should have 8+ pieces of scenery... that is a tremendous nerf to shooting.

...except Lumineth Sentinels, obviously. They're not allowed to be nerfed.

Do you have a source on this? Because Sprues and Brews lists this spell as one of the new enhancements:

Ghost Mist: Casts on a 5+ and causes a terrain feature to block line of sight.

Since it grants line of sight blocking, that would imply that terrain does not generally block line of sight.

[JackStreicher]

2 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Every piece of terrain gives cover against shooting

well, not true. a simple wall for example can't grant cover to a unit of 32mm bases depending on the size of the wall (since two ranks can't get within 1" of the terrain).