General Lumineth Realm Lords Rules Discussion

[novakai]

well at least Bladelord don't have the Sunmetal MW ability 

[Indecisive]

Man, some of these units are just bad but there are definitely some rules that are just annoying. Not OP just annoying by being a hassle.

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, but nothing seems as toxic as what LRL already have, so I'm hopeful that the experience of playing against them will be less terrible. I.e. it's lame to sit around for 5 minutes while your opponent counts up how many trash attacks their bladelords get only to do nothing with them once they decide it's 33, not 34, after 90 seconds of careful measuring to see if they can get one more useless attack...but it's a lot less lame than watching 40 sentinels just delete whatever hero of yours they feel like with no counterplay. 

The only thing that seems a like concerning off the top of my head is that the lame NPE sentinel build just got even more NPE with a free reroll of a cast, unbind, dispel and if they take a unit of the rooriders it is also harder to just ignore their army and win on the mission by blocking off their scoring capacity. I.e. I'm not really worried about the new units except insofar as it makes the crappy old build even crappier. 

edit: Oh haha I was looking at NZ prices, no wonder. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by yukishiro1

[madmac]

Honestly, I think half of these new warscrolls will almost never see play. Bladelords will get used, but purely for their bodyguard ability, they can't stack up to anything else in the army for fighting.

The regents are especially weird, being ostensibly command/general types who have nothing really going on for leadership/buffing abilities, just OK combat stats and a second chance to apply Power of Hysh on something.  The generic regent might get good artifacts at least, the named version is dead in the water.

Bannerblade does nothing at all that would make you take him. Wind Chargers are just ok. Ballista is fine, it's there as backup for whenever Sentinels get nerfed I guess. Twins are really weird in how they work. Loreseeker is the best new generic hero out of the whole set.

[Indecisive]

Yeah, that was one of the things I thought was annoying, imagine the time to pile-in 15 swordmasters to get max attacks and then counting up how many attacks you can get.
That sort of ability really should be reserved for single model units, way less tedious then.

[yukishiro1]

They don't look very good, I agree, though we don't know what ridiculous additional special rules might be lurking the LRL book that they just haven't previewed yet. It's LRL, you can't rule out the possibility that they decided that a bajillion special rules weren't enough, they needed a bajillion and thirteen. 

[Scurvydog]

Most of the new stuff seems pretty chill, with the other added benefits the air/wind units get, they certainly fill a different role. 

Thinking of competitive play the standout is the Loreseeker. There was some complaining about how to deal with gargants capping points, there ya go, problem solved, sit this guy on a point and it can not be capped unless he is dead. I can see some battle plans where he can really be a pain as you can set him just on a border of the territory on an objective, then 1st turn go and protect him, why not make him the general with goading arrogance as well

A ballista or two might be handy for their once per game -1 to hit debuff, just to ensure the enemy does absolutely nothing hitting those shining companies with -1 to hit already, throw that fox in there to add -1 more for the heck of it.

Guess we will see how it adds up, if nothing else the terrain alone is a strong buff for any armylist. For the rest I dont really know if it is needed instead of wardens, sentinels and dawnriders and what they can already do well.

[Harioch]

I just looked at the named wind Kitsune archer and I was like..: "ok..I can't catch this thing nor shooting at it, nor magic missile him...". If I can't deal with him, i should ignore him ...but can I afford it?  His shooting is decent and his movement allows him to be where he wants to go. So he will always be a pain in the ***. A first hot take to his warscroll makes me wonder if he'll not be the most annoying thing in this Lumineth release. I'll wait to see his point cost.

Also to be fair, none of these LrL warscrolls screams OP to me, even the foxes. Just them being annoying to counter with my OBR (the catapults with -1 to hit...-2 with the LrL ballistas...and ignore wounds on 5+ means a lot of wasted shots on it).

The only warscrolls that seems good, at least to me, are the ballista, foxes and the swordmaster hero. Oh and I despise the fury of blows rule for the swordmasters...it will be tedious and will slow down the combat phase by a lot.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Harioch

[yukishiro1]

Pretty sure he's 300 points, and I'm not sure you'll see him all that much, because 10 wounds with a 5+/5+++ is really squishy for a model like that and he'll just melt to anybody with ranged firepower. Seraphon will just delete him with trivial ease, and since Seraphon is the top of the meta, I don't see people taking him competitively. You can't afford to throw away 300 points against your strongest opponent. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by yukishiro1

[SeanMaguire1991]

Just looked over the old Lumineth book again with the new stuff in mind. 

We'll get some artefacts and command traits for the new Vanari heroes, probably artefact banners too, as well as the new Scinari character. 

Besides the obvious Hurakan Battle trait I'm curious if they'll add anything Vanari traits to accommodate the new units (specifically the heroes).

Also I noticed the named wind character has Ymetrica keyword like Avalenor. So I'm thinking will the other 2 be Ymetrica too, or will they be in Tyrion's devoted city? Now I'm thinking Earth, Wind and Moon for Teclis is there some kind of spiritual significance there or am I looking too deep?

Edited March 27, 2021 by SeanMaguire1991
New ideas

[OkayestDM]

59 minutes ago, SeanMaguire1991 said:

Also I noticed the named wind character has Ymetrica keyword like Avalenor. So I'm thinking will the other 2 be Ymetrica too, or will they be in Tyrion's devoted city?

GW always assigns a faction's named heroes to the same subfaction. Lyrior is referred to as "Warden of Ymetrica" by Teclis in the reveal trailer. Looks like the twins are from Ymetrica too.

[Ganigumo]

Sevireth is quite possibly the worst warscroll ever written.

-Destroys allegiance abilities (faction terrain)

-36" flying move

-42" threat range on his bow that can obliterate foot heroes (his shooting profile is better than 3 skyfires)

- 3" range on melee attacks (which arent awful and can probably delete a foot hero)

- gives a -2" to pile-ins, while also being able to pile in backwards 3", so unless you fight first you cant even hit him without 2" attack ranges

300 points.

[Neverchosen]

My thoughts on the Warscrolls: The Loreseeker has cool rules and the Bladelords also have cool rules and they look great together and have some synergy but the Loreseeker is going to likely start on an objective away from his guard. Maybe if I go LRL I should instead look to the skys and play foxes and kangaroos natures, oldest friends. The wind units all seem really fun and have great rules with lots of speed and not drastically over powered. I am not crazy about the flightstand on the windmage but that is a small price to pay for such a cool unit. I think that I would likely lean more towards whatever gets better supported by the eventual Start Collecting set which will be released in what feels like an eternity. 

I think people were too concerned about powercreep with this army's rules, but they should have been worried about model power-creep as everything looks fantastic. I have a strong feeling that if I get into this faction I will make the least meta capable army possible as I love pretty much everything other than Teclis* and the Sentinels... 😅

*I might simply take Teclis off the Celennar and run him as a Loreseeker. My only real issue with the model is Teclis unbalances the beautiful silhouette of the Celennar. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Neverchosen

[yukishiro1]

The foxes can actually move 12" in their opponent's shooting phase too, rules as written, lol. Meaning it's basically impossible to charge him unless you can trap him between multiple units or have +4 to charge or more or charge out of phase, since you can't come within 3" of him in the movement phase, and then he can scoot 12" away in your shooting phase before you can charge. 

Pretty clear that's a GW proofreading /fail of epic proportions, and I hope nobody is craven enough to try to actually do it before the inevitable FAQ. But it's pretty embarrassing on GW's part. 

It's one of those very badly designed models that is either going to be oppressive against armies without long-ranged damage, or pretty useless against armies that do have long-ranged damage. And the absolute last thing the game needs right now is more stuff that rewards ranged damage and punishes armies without it. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Kitsumy]

Fun, i was going to post how lumis hater should be happy since every warscroll is as bad or even worse than we though, but still people criying about them omg.

 

Such a same wind models are sooo bad, they were the best models by far.

-wukong is like a 80p mage with more move. Sligthy better at melee and his spell is really bad. But cost 120? 

-Fox non named cost 250p for average 4dmg at ranged and thats it, no aura, no comand ability, non mage... 140p sentinels do the same and are mages.named one only gain the mw ability, so same 4average ranged dmg and 4-5mortals at best and u need to go into rival army with ur ranged squishy hero for 300p... Again dont see why would u use him despite being the coolest miniature so far.

-Galliminus... Are sentinels with less range. Non mage, non mortals, not shinning company, but with better move! And 10p cheaper.

-Swordmasters arent mages,and havent mortals lol even wardens are far better.

-Bannerguy is a total joke, worst warscroll in all aos for me.

-Caligraph spell is pretty meh, rune ability is cool but only 1 try per game?? Dont find him useful since any unit is far better and can cast 1 spell as him, so no reason to take him.

-Loremaster, isnt bad, but named so only 1 and no relics etc for him, and dont have any personal spell, so again why would u take him to cast 1 normal spell when every unit do the same with more wounds, and doing double his dmg for less points.

-Mounted heros need 1w and 3w on named, dmg is pitiful, like half similar units do, spell is useless,

-Brothers ramp up dmg mechanic is bad. They are bad on first turns ( most importants one) and will be dead on last turns when they would start paying up for his points, his spell could be cool but being only on them limit them sooo much.

-Ballista is like stormcast one but with some resctrictions and so much squishy for only 20p less, and again strictly worse than sentinels by far, so no use for it.

So there isnt anything on new wave at actual level 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Kitsumy

[Ganigumo]

@Kitsumy Most people here arent complaining about how broken lumineth are, but rather the NPE and toxic elements of the army and this release adds more.

Sevireth is definitely gonna be bad NPE, and as I mentioned before if theres any extra pile in range One with the wind would be awful to play against. Lo and behold they get a battalion with windchargers AND Sevireth which lets them count as though they had charged even if they hadn't.

There's also the loreseeker who gets a pre-game redeploy (so before movement) who is a wizard (so he can cast endless spells) who for some reason only needs to be more than 3" away from enemy models. 

 

Lumineth has also gotten a teleport spell, and a spell to increase range of shooting attacks, in case you thought you could screen out their shooting lol.

[Nagash42]

the loreseeker teleporting around claiming objectives is kinda funny. Then you teleport him somewhere to hide around the objective so the enemy has to chase him out of 6"

Edited March 27, 2021 by Nagash42

[Jaskier]

Yep, Spirit of the Wind (the ability) as written is broken, especially in the battalion that lets the foxes do 6" pile-ins. It can do a 2.9" corner tag, reduce pile-ins to 1" so you can't really strike back, then in the enemy shooting phase it can retreat 12" and just do it to the same/another unit or get out of harms way of something that tries to charge it. If that thing doesn't want to be charged, you won't charge it because you have to end moves 3" away in the movement phase and it can move 12" with Fly away before they get a chance to charge, putting it up to 15" away. Even a double-moving (Mighty Destroyers) Maw-Krusha couldn't catch it at that point. 

Thankfully, it's obviously not intentional and will get FAQ'd pretty quickly. The warscroll is super cool otherwise and will be really strong in the hands of a good player; fragile but packed with loads of nasty tricks that reward aggressive (and thus risky) play. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Jaskier

[Indecisive]

Definitely not the best rules they've done, Calligrave for example. D3 mortal wounds now or D6 mortal wounds next turn? Why not D3 mortal wounds next turn instead too?
After all 2D3 > 1D6 so it's a no-brainer.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Indecisive

[Scurvydog]

35 minutes ago, Indecisive said:

Definitely not the best rules they've done, Calligrave for example. D3 mortal wounds now or D6 mortal wounds next turn? Why not D3 mortal wounds next turn instead too?
After all 2D3 > 1D6 so it's a no-brainer.

Might be to burst a target, healing targets etc where chip damage is not that useful

Edited March 27, 2021 by Scurvydog

[whispersofblood]

1 hour ago, Jaskier said:

Yep, Spirit of the Wind (the ability) as written is broken, especially in the battalion that lets the foxes do 6" pile-ins. It can do a 2.9" corner tag, reduce pile-ins to 1" so you can't really strike back, then in the enemy shooting phase it can retreat 12" and just do it to the same/another unit or get out of harms way of something that tries to charge it. If that thing doesn't want to be charged, you won't charge it because you have to end moves 3" away in the movement phase and it can move 12" with Fly away before they get a chance to charge, putting it up to 15" away. Even a double-moving (Mighty Destroyers) Maw-Krusha couldn't catch it at that point. 

Thankfully, it's obviously not intentional and will get FAQ'd pretty quickly. The warscroll is super cool otherwise and will be really strong in the hands of a good player; fragile but packed with loads of nasty tricks that reward aggressive (and thus risky) play. 

yeah well 1, its models within 3 inches reduce their pile-in to 1 inch. So actually if you Mighty destroyers charge, it moves 12, you move to 4 inches away and pile-in your full 3 inches because you charged that turn.

But you won't retract your statement as incorrect and it will just float around in the internet forever 🙃
 

Edited March 27, 2021 by whispersofblood

[JackStreicher]

16 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

We're criticizing most of the rules of their army, that they spent a lot of money on and time on, like the lore and look of, and had fun playing. They could have put over a hundred hours into this, and people are not exactly nice in how they word their opinions. I know I reread some stuff that I wrote that should have been nicer.

Tbh, then he should not be in denial but angry at GW for overtuning his army so no one wants to play against him anymore. It‘s never been a attack on him, it‘s the utter disbelieve of how GW can print such rules.

Edited March 27, 2021 by JackStreicher

[JackStreicher]

4 hours ago, Neverchosen said:

Bladelords

Their rules pretty much claim that they are better at melee than any existing god, Celestine prime, Demi god or greater demon. Because nothing else in the game simply automatically hits, but those flimsy stupid LRL. The design of the army is abnoxiously fanboy-made and quite frankly a kick in the teeth of all other factions.

again, this is not about power

 

Also the overall design is a bit weird:

how does this guys on a huge mount only have 6 wounds when a Loreseeker has 6 wounds as well?
Just to name one oddity (no command abilities and missing keywords?) GW‘s quality control at its best...

Edited March 27, 2021 by JackStreicher

[Jaskier]

52 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

yeah well 1, its models within 3 inches reduce their pile-in to 1 inch. So actually if you Mighty destroyers charge, it moves 12, you move to 4 inches away and pile-in your full 3 inches because you charged that turn.

But you won't retract your statement as incorrect and it will just float around in the internet forever 🙃
 

Huh? I wasn't talking about using Mighty Destroyers to charge, bud. I was using the example of a Maw-Krusha crossing the board by using Mighty Destroyers to move 24" in a turn, i.e. something with an enormous threat range. I was just commenting on how Sevirith's current ability wording lets him easily escape something that fast. Obviously the last thing you'd want to do is sit within 12" for the situation you described to happen, but I was talking about how even a unit that can cross the board in a turn wouldn't be able to charge him easily. 

I think you should re-read my post. I might not have worded it the best, but I was making two separate points - one about the 2.9" tagging with his other ability and how it can be abused further with the current wording of Spirit of the Wind (i.e. even if you retreat from him, he can just move 12" to get within 6" and do it again, or move away from a different unit that is about to charge him) and one about how even super fast units (like a Maw-Krusha that double moves) would still have massive trouble catching him in combat. 

Appreciate the hostility though which you won't apologise for and will just let it float around in the internet forever 🙄

Edited March 27, 2021 by Jaskier

[Svalack]

I have zero knowledge of high elf or lumineth background. Narratively what makes a loreseeker able to infiltrate an army? 

I don't think he's got a particularly good warscroll, the rules just seemed random to me. The changeling infiltrating makes sense but I think even orks aren't stupid enough to not notice an elf in bright white armour in the middle of their ranks?