Range that needs updating

[zilberfrid]

6 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

This isn't a card game. There is immense amount of time, emotion and expense that goes into a fully-painted - and in the case of CoS, perhaps converted, army - and too much more churn-and-burn will really start to spook much of the community.

- Tomb Kings and Brets? Well, it's a new game...

- Silver Tower? Was never intended to be part of AoS, proper

- Greenskinz? Was just a Start Collecting box

- Spire of Dawn? Was just a single battleforce box

- Forgeworld? It's technically a seperate company, and the sculpts are aging anyway

However, losing Cos (or BoC, etc.) would be the first time a fully itemised, white-boxed, battletome-bearing army had been removed since the transition period, and that pretty much changes everything.

Also, there seems to be a mis-conception that newcomers to the hobby know/care about WHFB or the years printed on sprues (etc.). They merely see an army with white boxes and a book - just like IDK, OBR, LRL (etc.). This means that the "you should have seen it coming" defence of GW shouldn't apply either, IMHO.

Hell, even a low-selling new army might not be safe under such circumstances. The only such case I am aware of is Fyreslayers (and this is mostly anecdotal evidence - albeit lots and lots of anecdotal evidence), where GW might either decide the concept is fundamentally flawed - and thus further updates would merely be throwing good money after bad - or that the execution was the issue, and thus maybe try to add to the range in order to make it more visually interesting.

Anyway, let's hope none of these full army squattings ever happens.

2019 saw quite a few boxes and warscrolls removed with hardly a mention. Removing CoS would not be double that.

And yes. I have already moved on to different games.

[NinthMusketeer]

8 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Eh, if GW can kill off WHFB and come out swinging a few years later after salvaging 1.0 I'm sure squat'ing one army won't do much. 

GW fans are anything if not extremely, if sometimes reluctantly, loyal.

GW basically came as close to admitting they made a mistake as they could without stating it outright. There was a sudden, dramatic change in the direction of AoS and an unprecedented surge in community involvement for the first time in decades. AoS got massive rules overhauls, battletomes became packed with content, and prices for miniatures dropped (often quite significantly). Start Collecting boxes were introduced as well as yearly point updates and FAQs. It was not some token effort of throwing out a battletome to support old minis, it was a complete revamp in how GW approached business as a whole. People saw that, and that's what brought many of them back. It was as far from a blind loyalty decision as one could possibly be without simply holding a grudge. Brand loyalty is a factor, but it has far shorter limits than GW black knights care to express. The theoretical 'blind loyalist' that buys GW no matter what is rare to the extreme if not nonexistent.

[Kyriakin]

52 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

2019 saw quite a few boxes and warscrolls removed with hardly a mention. Removing CoS would not be double that.

And yes. I have already moved on to different games.

But were they WHFB or AoS boxes?

I checked the most egregious 2019 squatting (i.e. the Sky Cutter Chariot), and it seems to have been WHFB-boxed until the very end.

I think removing individual AoS-boxed kits - especially if we are talking about removing the entire army that they comprise - is a different situation, as these products would be visually indistinguishable from their IDK, OBR, LRL (etc.) counterparts.

Or, to put it another way, there is nothing to say "this is older, and therefore at-risk" without scouring the internet archives or looking at sprue dates.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Kyriakin

[DOGGED]

Orcs and Druchii come to mind as old ranges which could do with new minis to  substitute for the current, old ones. No need to go to Lumineth extremes but a revision of the rank and file could work wonders (and that's a few units, not that much as to be such an investment as to say a few the Idoneth Deepkin or the Lumineth). Specially as Dark Elves are pivotal in the last chunk of BR: Morathi (and further developments) and Orcs furnish the rest of the "clans" which are not Ironjawz and Bonesplittas and were mentioned in Battletome: Ironjawz at least.

[Vasshpit]

I feel as though quite a bit of the earlier AoS designs were just that, early designs for a game they didnt know would be successful or not. You can see it across multiple earlier faction such as Fyreslayers, Stormcast, Ironjawz.  I feel like GW could go back and "2nd edition" some of those designs and nip this in the bud now. 

Update the battline choices for these armies so that they reflect better on the current direction more. Give fyreslayers and stormcast M/F sculpts. Tone down the look of fyreslayers battline a bit to show their rank or something along those lines. 

I never did understand why they didnt just dump Ardboys all together for Ironjawz. As you see it now, no one brings brutes. Those should be what ardboys are. Silly!!

These are just examples of ideas they could do to "clean" up their successful experiment that I think would be appreciated. 

 

 

Keep those filthy chaos goats out of destro!! Never going to happen!!😜

Give us Fimir, Zoats, or Silent People.!!!

Give those sneaky rats some love too while your at it!!!

[NinthMusketeer]

Presumably basic Orcs & Goblins will be back for Old World, and there is no reason for GW to not dual-purpose them into AoS. Orc models wouldn't even need a new battletome since they fit into Big Waaagh! allegiance.

[Televiper11]

1 hour ago, Overread said:

How come? 

Most of the traditional forest range of BoC is still resin or metal; the aesthetic is Old World and we see that aesthetic slowly getting squatted or replaced. New plastics are god specific and that will continue. I could see BoC as a separate army going away, maybe the generics being absorbed into StD. 

[zilberfrid]

39 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

But were they maroon or white boxes?

I checked the most egregious squatting (i.e. the Sky Cutter Chariot), and it seems to have been maroon-boxed until the very end.

I think removing individual white-boxed kits - especially if we are talking about removing the entire army that they comprise - is a different situation, as these products would be visually indistinguishable from their IDK, OBR, LRL (etc.) counterparts.

Or, to put it another way, there is nothing to say "this is older, and therefore at-risk" without scouring the internet archives or looking at sprue dates.

There were white boxes, boxes with just a sticker on it that are since removed. Similar to what I got my General on Griffin and Demigryphs in. They are utterly boring with the logos of 40k, AoS and Citadel on it.

[Kyriakin]

1 minute ago, zilberfrid said:

There were white boxes, boxes with just a sticker on it that are since removed. Similar to what I got my General on Griffin and Demigryphs in. They are utterly boring with the logos of 40k, AoS and Citadel on it.

Oh, OK. By "white box", I meant the official AoS boxes.

I didn't know plain white boxes were a thing (except Made to Order, maybe), so might need to edit my previous comment so as to not be confusing.

[zilberfrid]

23 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

Oh, OK. By "white box", I meant the official AoS boxes.

I didn't know plain white boxes were a thing (except Made to Order, maybe), so might need to edit my previous comment so as to not be confusing.

I don't think the Freeguild lineup, the Human side of Ironweld, or the Celestial Hurricanum, or the Dark Elves have new boxes (except Dark Riders, courtesy of Doomfire Warlocks), none of the High elves come in new boxes as far as I can tell. Somehow, the College wizards do.

So if you like humans, well, it's just the wizards in new boxes. Dwarves are in a new box except for their heroes (irobreakers, hammerers and gyrocopter), elves have Dark Riders, Sisters of the Thorn and Nomad Prince in a new box.

[Overread]

1 hour ago, Televiper11 said:

Most of the traditional forest range of BoC is still resin or metal; the aesthetic is Old World and we see that aesthetic slowly getting squatted or replaced. New plastics are god specific and that will continue. I could see BoC as a separate army going away, maybe the generics being absorbed into StD. 

What about Slaves to Darkness and the new Warcy Warbands - all of which are god neutral and span from wildpeople worshipping random gods through to combined four god armies. Beasts of Chaos is old in models, but that's the same thing Seraphon, Skaven and a good few other armies are suffering with. You can be sure that new sculpts would appear to replace and upgrade what is there. 

Also don't forget "AoS style" is a bit of a myth. Many of the new designs for some armies are things we've had before - Khinerai are harpies that GW had for years for example. Sometimes its just stuff coming back into cycle; plus look at some of the sculpts we do get - not everything is the new fox archer leaping into the air with tassels, there's regular mundane stuff too. 

 

IF GW were going to remove Beasts of Chaos they'd have done it rather than update them to 2.0. Yes at some point they'll get new models, but that's new stuff not removing the army entirely. 

[Neverchosen]

I will borrow from @Ragest's format for this question:

In need of update:
Skaven: one of the most iconic armies with some of the most outdated and oddly proportioned model ranges of any GW line. I personally think of all the lines that have a mixture of contemporary and classic sculpts the difference in quality maintains the largest disparity. Look at how strange Night Runners look next to Spiteclaw’s Swarm.
Seraphon: I do not hate the old Saurus as much as everyone else but I do not think that they have aged well. The Cold Ones are particularly ugly in my opinion and look like they can barely support their riders. However, I think that the thing that this army has is a disproportionately high amount of resin models that look quite bad particularly the Salamanders and Razordons and many of the Heroes. The Slaan and Kroxigors look good but also need plastic updates to bring them up to a modern standard.
Cities of Sigmar: Freeguild and Ironweld models all need an update in my opinion. The Freeguild are very old and look very dated but more importantly could use a nice AOS visual update. The Vampire Hunter is amazing and I would love the current humans to reflect such a style. As for the Ironweld, I really think that giving some Duardin build options for crew would instantly make me enjoy the models so much more and also fit the lore. I think having a Duardin engineer operating a steamtank or a mixed crew on a hellblaster would add a lot of visual dynamism to the army. It also seems strange that we hear about how adept the Duardin are at engineering Warmachines but they only operate the Gyrocopters. 

In need of an expansion:
Fyreslayers: They need an update to break up the monotony of the army. There are countless ideas for expanding the range so I will leave it at the fact that they have a tiny range and are in desperate need of expansion to make the army appeal more visually. I currently feel all Fyreslayer armies ought to include Magmadroths and a Mega Gargant simply to have something to add a bit of visual variety.
Idoneth Deepkin: I think that they have a spectacular range but I do think that there is so much potential in the concept and I greatly look forward to seeing the range expand.
Flesh Eater Courts: Once again I think it is a great line already and has a strong visual identity. I would love to see an expansion including some cursed hunting dogs and cavalry. 

Units in need of an Update:
Marauders: I really hate the look of the current models and I desperately would like an update in the style of the Warqueen and Chieftan. However, I feel like the Warcry Warbands may end up functioning as their replacement after a while. I actually really like the current Marauder Horsemen and do not feel they are in as desperate a need of an update as their unmounted peers. 
Nightrunners: The aforementioned Skaven unit is terribly dated but conceptually fantastic. I think that if Skaven got a single update I would want it to be for this specific unit.
Zombies: I assume that we will get updates with Gravelords and with Warhammer Quest, but the current models look fairly ridiculous and they look out of place next to the corpse cart and current skeletons. 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Neverchosen

[AGPO]

3 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

I feel "brown" (i.e. ex-WHFB) Beastmen should become Destrction (it could even be a narrative event), and the god-themed Beastmen remain within their god-aligned armies.

Maybe the latter can perform double-duty, but I feel brown Beastmen would feel like a bigger deal - both in terms of narrative and gameplay -  in the "small pond" that is GA Destrction.

Batsmen are as chaos as they come. Their epithet has been the True Children of Chaos from 2nd ed WFB through to 2nd ed AOS.  The new lore strongly reinforces this connection. Tzaangor, Slaangor etc are all explicitly still beastmen and the likes of Morghur are explicitly chaotic characters carried over from TWTW. This would be a retcon greater than making Allarielle and the Sylvaneth destruction.

2 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

Oh, OK. By "white box", I meant the official AoS boxes.

I didn't know plain white boxes were a thing (except Made to Order, maybe), so might need to edit my previous comment so as to not be confusing.

Plain white boxes are for mail order only stuff, since they haven't bothered to print new boxes once the WFB stuff ran out for the stuff that was never stocked in stores since the transition.

[Overread]

I wouldn't update Marauders - I'd retire them and let the Warcry Warbands take their place in full. Or perhaps replace Marauders with their own Warcry Warband and go from there. 

[Harpo2]

Pestigors for Maggotkin and Khorngors for Blades of Khorne would be nice, both books are in need of a rules update and having all the chaos gods (minus GHR) specific beastmen would be nice.

Could then update the Beast of Chaos book to include all the god aligned Beastmen (and make their rules better).

Actually mentioning Maggotkin, them and Idoneth don't have endless spells yet. I could see both getting a new rules book with endless spells like DoK.

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Harpo2

[Doko]

Fyreslayers are for sure the most needed faction for new models.

Update can be seraphons or skavens if soulbligth gonna get it now with the new faction

 

Btw i bougth a 100% new 4000 points of cities,so not all the cities players are fantasy old players or peoples doing kitbashing etc. And i hope never get squated or for sure i gonna say bye bye to gw

[SeanMaguire1991]

3 hours ago, Neverchosen said:

In need of update:
Skaven: one of the most iconic armies with some of the most outdated and oddly proportioned model ranges of any GW line. I personally think of all the lines that have a mixture of contemporary and classic sculpts the difference in quality maintains the largest disparity. Look at how strange Night Runners look next to Spiteclaw’s Swarm.
Seraphon: I do not hate the old Saurus as much as everyone else but I do not think that they have aged well. The Cold Ones are particularly ugly in my opinion and look like they can barely support their riders. However, I think that the thing that this army has is a disproportionately high amount of resin models that look quite bad particularly the Salamanders and Razordons and many of the Heroes. The Slaan and Kroxigors look good but also need plastic updates to bring them up to a modern standard.
Cities of Sigmar: Freeguild and Ironweld models all need an update in my opinion. The Freeguild are very old and look very dated but more importantly could use a nice AOS visual update. The Vampire Hunter is amazing and I would love the current humans to reflect such a style. As for the Ironweld, I really think that giving some Duardin build options for crew would instantly make me enjoy the models so much more and also fit the lore. I think having a Duardin engineer operating a steamtank or a mixed crew on a hellblaster would add a lot of visual dynamism to the army. It also seems strange that we hear about how adept the Duardin are at engineering Warmachines but they only operate the Gyrocopters. 

Yes to the first 2 but I have an interesting theory on the third

I don't see them updating the existing models, instead I see GW using them in Warhammer the Old World and adding to them through that game (I also doubt everything in WOW will be Forge World resin, they'll have plastic sets like Necromunda and Blood Bowl).

[Neverchosen]

59 minutes ago, SeanMaguire1991 said:

Yes to the first 2 but I have an interesting theory on the third

I don't see them updating the existing models, instead I see GW using them in Warhammer the Old World and adding to them through that game (I also doubt everything in WOW will be Forge World resin, they'll have plastic sets like Necromunda and Blood Bowl).

If that is the case the question becomes: do I want an Araby, Kislev or Brettonian themed city...?

The answer: Halflings!

[NinthMusketeer]

Marauders are inversely proportional, so be careful what you wish for. Right now their models are hilariously bad but their warscroll hilariously OP. Were they to get a new good looking kit that would inevitably come with a warscroll update which makes them awful. There are arcane equations and specific ritual balances which GW must observe for these things you know.

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Marauders are inversely proportional, so be careful what you wish for. Right now their models are hilariously bad but their warscroll hilariously OP. Were they to get a new good looking kit that would inevitably come with a warscroll update which makes them awful. There are arcane equations and specific ritual balances which GW must observe for these things you know.

Well, Freeguild Guard and Crossbowmen aren't THAT good.

[NinthMusketeer]

That variable within the formula only applies to Marauders silly.

[sandlemad]

RE: Beastmen, there's always been that tension about how chaotic they are because they fill a lot of the same thematic roles as orcs and goblins. Gav Thorpe in his designer's notes for the 6th ed. beasts of chaos book specifically wrote about trying to avoid their army design coming down to "beastie boys".

I do feel like they lose some of their woodland Old World flavour in AoS though and they're in a bit of a tricky spot. Some of their biggest thematic cues are now shared with Destruction in a way that they weren't with the scattered WHFB greenskin/ogre factions: overturning the works of civilisation, the focus on a bestial spirit, brute force dominance as the key to leadership. The AoS battletome's take on this is to flavour them with a particular entropic anarchism -  taking it to the point where they even snarl at the gods is rad, like mini-Malal as a concept - and how that whole 'True Children' preeminence comes out in relations with other chaos factions is good stuff. It makes them distinct and offers a nice contrast to a chaos range that is otherwise increasingly regimented in some ways. Slaangors and Tzaangors are sort of outliers, really.

Besides that, what could they bring to Destruction? Barbarians, axes, brutal warlords, a replica of the big/small dynamic which characterised WHFB orcs/goblins and ogres/gnoblars with a raiding flavour and some woodland monsters. I think to take away the chaotic elements is to leave them as just brown orcs.

[Beastmaster]

You’re right, Beastmen worked better in the old world. Dark forests in which animal people celebrate bloody rituals were pretty much a defining feature of the Empire. I also saw them as a dark mirror to the (already quite dark) Wood Elves.

Maybe Beastmen will have a comeback as an Oldworld force?

[NotAWzrd]

Flesh Eater Courts

Most of their kits are just carried over from Warhammer Fantasy and are starting to showing their age when you compare them to the WHU warband. 

Beasts of Chaos

I used to love Beastmen but apart from the god-aligned units they still have that shoehorned into AoS feeling. You could fit gors and ungors into a Warcry warband and that would probably sum them up as well as an entire faction can. 

Seraphon

I’d personally like them to move away from the dinosaur stuff a bit more, but I just hope any refresh fully embraces the celestial, “ancient astronauts” theme that’s so cool in the lore. 

Skaven

The future for Skaven might be turning Clan Skryre into the poster boys of the faction so to speak. Seeing as how important realmstone is to the AoS lore, the utilisation of warp stone might be something they focus on with Skaven. They have some of the most up to date sculpts (stormfiends & bombardier) and it would also be another way for GW to sell more of the new technical paints (tesseract glow & nihilakh oxide). 

 

[MitGas]

6 hours ago, Beastmaster said:

Maybe Beastmen will have a comeback as an Oldworld force?

Or maybe they bring AoS to where it needs to go as Warhammer Fantasy's successor and make Beastmen the terrifying no-nonsense Lovecraftian terror they should well be? There are lots of forests in the realms as well.  Sorry if this comes off as a snide remark, I'm just convinced that AoS would be worse if they removed Beastmen (which I doubt). My biggest hope for the new Warhammer Quest is that they'll bring back the gothic horror that was always one of the main ingredients of Warhammer.