What would you like for AoS 3

[Gauche]

Voicing my opinion as a player interested in returning to AoS but watching for details before I do so. I'm not knowledgeable about the meta at the moment but these are my big picture wants:

Nerf the Double Turn.
We know it's here to stay but it needs a nerf, not just buffs for the other player. The best thing I can see for this is to make it so you can't score, or score less, in Missions if you get a Double Turn. This way it's more of a choice between attrition and scoring. A similar change was recently put into 40K and was well-received.

Move Magic Out of the Hero Phase
Not being able to move before you cast Spells always felt very stupid and it's hard to position for next turn at times because of the Double Turn. Just make Magic its own phase, people won't freak out.

Make Battalions More of a Cost
These were super problematic in 1.0 and it seems they're only worse now. Battalions give so much, not just power but also Deployment options, Artefacts, and CP. I'd like them to bite off 40K here and give you a starting pool of CP that you lose from for each Battalion you have. Also you should just be able to buy Artefacts for points/CP or limit them to one per army. This would make armies that don't have Battalions quite a bit more even-keel.

Total Re-Work of Look-Out-Sir
Just a bad mechanic as is, they should again copy how it works with 40K in 9E. That way you can get Characters close to the action but front-liners are still at risk and positioning matters. As is the rule feels like training wheels and doesn't accomplish what it needs to.

Improved Terrain Rules
Not to keep harping on 40K but they really got this right in 9E and AoS should steal it. LoS blocking in particular seems like it could help mitigate the Double Turn as it usually matters more for shooting armies than melee ones.

Other than that I don't have much, AoS has a tight ruleset like 40K does. They seem to have avoided the bloat that's huring 9E right now so that's a good course to be on. It also looks like the jump from 2E to 3E won't be as extreme as 8E to 9E was for 40K which might mean there isn't the unplayable imbalance that's hurt 40K since the change.

[Nos]

Bravery/Psychology actually mattering

Gameplay which encourages unit formations and not conga lines 

Mechanics which respect the rules rather than override/break them (activation, I'm looking at you. What an absolute farce that was).

More focus and drama in actual fights rather than just tacking MW's and multiple FNP saves to make combat an irrelevance 

 

[FlatTooth]

9 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I think the original hope may have been 2022 (possibly taking that specialist games November slot), but we don't know the impact that the pandemic has had on the design team.  I don't think I'm on my own being happy to wait an extra few years for a ruleset that's polished rather than rushed.

I fear you may well be waiting for this one!

A new player doesn't have to buy the generals handbook or even the battletome to play either.  There's free battleplans available and all of the points and warscrolls are available for free.  The battletome will add additional rules and things like artefacts (which you certainly don't need for your first games) along with providing lots of information and lore on your chosen army.  The generals handbook you only realistically need if you're starting to do organised events.  Yes both books are really nice to have, but far from essential for your first runs into AoS.

It’s a bit disingenuous to say that you can play an army without the battletome. While strictly true you miss out on many of the rules which make a faction feel full. Not to mention you have to hope you can find folks who don’t want to play with points or full rules. I imagine it’s more realistic that they’d just offer to loan you the books. It’s an outdated method of delivering rules and they only do it because they can get away with it. 

[Marcvs]

9 minutes ago, FlatTooth said:

It’s a bit disingenuous to say that you can play an army without the battletome. While strictly true you miss out on many of the rules which make a faction feel full. Not to mention you have to hope you can find folks who don’t want to play with points or full rules. I imagine it’s more realistic that they’d just offer to loan you the books. It’s an outdated method of delivering rules and they only do it because they can get away with it. 

I would also add that if you are in any way a) interested in the "game" aspect (that is, a chance at winning) and b) have any budgetary constraints, familiarising yourself with the full rules for you army and understanding synergies is a better way to plan your purchases

[Marcvs]

Just now, Marcvs said:

I would also add that if you are a) in any way interested in the "game" aspect (that is, a chance at winning) and b) have any budgetary constraints, familiarising yourself with the full rules for you army and understanding synergies is a better way to plan your purchases

 

[zilberfrid]

18 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

I would also add that if you are in any way a) interested in the "game" aspect (that is, a chance at winning) and b) have any budgetary constraints, familiarising yourself with the full rules for you army and understanding synergies is a better way to plan your purchases

Plus you have armies like the Lumineth that just do not abide by the core rules. You almost need to buy their battletome to see what applies to them.

Edited May 10, 2021 by zilberfrid

[RuneBrush]

31 minutes ago, FlatTooth said:

It’s a bit disingenuous to say that you can play an army without the battletome. While strictly true you miss out on many of the rules which make a faction feel full. Not to mention you have to hope you can find folks who don’t want to play with points or full rules. I imagine it’s more realistic that they’d just offer to loan you the books. It’s an outdated method of delivering rules and they only do it because they can get away with it. 

21 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

I would also add that if you are in any way a) interested in the "game" aspect (that is, a chance at winning) and b) have any budgetary constraints, familiarising yourself with the full rules for you army and understanding synergies is a better way to plan your purchases

Just to clarify a point that you've both missed - my comment was talking about new players to AoS, not experienced players picking up a new army.  For a new player all you require is models, the core rules and warscrolls (probably dice and a ruler/tape could be useful too!).  Get the core rules nailed down and then look at adding allegiance abilities and other bits once they've grasped things like moving, charging and combat.  Look at it in the same way as a child learning to ride a bike - you wouldn't stick them at the top of a hill without any stabilisers and give them a shove...

I would hope that most players would be happy to give a new player an introductory game without using points and allegiance abilities too.

[Marcvs]

23 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Just to clarify a point that you've both missed - my comment was talking about new players to AoS, not experienced players picking up a new army.  For a new player all you require is models, the core rules and warscrolls (probably dice and a ruler/tape could be useful too!).  Get the core rules nailed down and then look at adding allegiance abilities and other bits once they've grasped things like moving, charging and combat.  Look at it in the same way as a child learning to ride a bike - you wouldn't stick them at the top of a hill without any stabilisers and give them a shove...

I would hope that most players would be happy to give a new player an introductory game without using points and allegiance abilities too.

No, it was clear to me to what scenario you were referring. With a completely new player I would rather lend them an army (then another etc) and play with simplified rules as you propose. But when they want to start to buy stuff, if they fulfil the two criteria I mentioned before, I would still suggest they get the battletome before making purchases

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Gauche said:

Make Battalions More of a Cost
These were super problematic in 1.0 and it seems they're only worse now. Battalions give so much, not just power but also Deployment options, Artefacts, and CP. I'd like them to bite off 40K here and give you a starting pool of CP that you lose from for each Battalion you have. Also you should just be able to buy Artefacts for points/CP or limit them to one per army. This would make armies that don't have Battalions quite a bit more even-keel.

Thank the horned rat that all of the skaven battalions are useless, I will not ever miss them

 

[PJetski]

2 hours ago, Gauche said:

Nerf the Double Turn.
...

Move Magic Out of the Hero Phase
...

Total Re-Work of Look-Out-Sir
Just a bad mechanic as is, they should again copy how it works with 40K in 9E. That way you can get Characters close to the action but front-liners are still at risk and positioning matters. As is the rule feels like training wheels and doesn't accomplish what it needs to.

Being able to move before casting would make the double turn stronger. These two things seem to be at odds.

Regarding Look Out Sir, I think it would be cool if there was a Core battalion that copied the generic bodyguard thing from Cities of Sigmar. Something like this:

• 1 HERO (Must be your army general)
• 1 Battleline unit
• Look Out Sir: You can roll a dice whenever you allocate a wound or mortal wound to the general in this battalion while they are within 1" of the Battleline unit in this battalion. On a 5+ that wound is allocated to the Battleline unit instead. Add 1 to this roll if the source of the wound or mortal wound is >3" from the general
• 100 points

You could have variable costs depending on the faction, and depending on the hero keywords (eg. a MONSTER general makes the battalion cost more)

[Gauche]

22 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Being able to move before casting would make the double turn stronger. These two things seem to be at odds.

Regarding Look Out Sir, I think it would be cool if there was a Core battalion that copied the generic bodyguard thing from Cities of Sigmar. Something like this:

• 1 HERO (Must be your army general)
• 1 Battleline unit
• Look Out Sir: You can roll a dice whenever you allocate a wound or mortal wound to the general in this battalion while they are within 1" of the Battleline unit in this battalion. On a 5+ that wound is allocated to the Battleline unit instead. Add 1 to this roll if the source of the wound or mortal wound is >3" from the general
• 100 points

You could have variable costs depending on the faction, and depending on the hero keywords (eg. a MONSTER general makes the battalion cost more)

I think other changes to the double turn would still leave it in a better place, even with Move + Cast. Ordinarily I'm a fan of having to plan a turn ahead but the Double Turn and the shorter range of many spells makes that feel bad instead of strategic. To me.

I'm never in favor of using RNG instead of a baseline rule. You'd see games where you just don't roll the 4+ and your guy gets bopped. I know that happens now but that's why it's a wish for a change, I prefer the 40K method where you control when your Characters can get attacked through careful movement. Your opponent can then counterplay by nuking the bodyguard unit/s, everyone wins. :] You can then layer on Bodyguard rules from there if you want to, as well as keep them for large models.

[BigNStinky]

I am excited for 3.0 but do have some concerns. They mention that there is some form of CP generation/bonus generation in the works for passing the double turn.

But, realistically, a lot of very good factions (ex: Seraphon) and some less than good factions (ex: Gloomspite) can generate a very large sum of command points and may not be incentivized to take the the second turn regardless of the command point bonus. This also plays into how the new generic battalions will work - will they still confer the artifacts and command points? Or will we be buying those separately (or not at all?).

I also know that not all artifacts are equal and assigning a generic points value to all of them would be  a mistake as some are just flat out better than others so I do not see them untying them from battalions just yet.

I just hope they REALLY do something to make the double worth passing up. Remember endless spells? Well that flopped. Then on top of it they doubled back and just released spells that couldn't even effect their own faction (making it worthless for the opponent to take control of them) or could not even BE controlled by the opponent (also worthless for incentivizing passing the double as they cannot be used to harm your forces and you could use half of your own spells anyway - bound/OBR spells).

Reactions have me excited though - Finally something to do in the enemies turn

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by BigNStinky

[Zeblasky]

2 hours ago, BigNStinky said:

Reactions have me excited though - Finally something to do in the enemies turn

They are great in concept, but for now I am quite worried about overwatch reaction. Having a generic CA that gives any ranged unit overwatch with only -1 to hit is a recipy for disaster. Besides the fact, that you can negate that -1, some very powerful ranged units (hello Kharadons and Skaven!) can become unchargeable. It's already not easy getting around screens and tying up ranged units, and this makes it even less rewarding and more risky. Unless you have a few Aeterwings or something simular to throw into overwatch first.

And if overwatch reaction CA does stack with certain units own overwatch (and it should, otherwise it would be quite weird), then for those you won't even need screens... Just imagine handgunners under foot general CA or Sisters of the Watch under Hurricanum getting to overwatch twice in a row. That's basically 1 usual attack for Sisters or double shooting phase for Handgunners for a price of a good setup and 1 CP. Sure they will probably die after  getting charged, but it will be very hard for them to not pay for themselfs after a single battle round.

I actually like shooting armies in this game and I myself am a proud owner of 40 Sisters of the Watch. But I do not think that certain ranged units should become so much self reliant and that the only counter to them would be magic or, well, counter shooting.  So I do wish that CA got reworked into something much less risky. But we'll see, may be 3.0 brings enough changes to make my fears irrelevant.

[dirkdragonslayer]

8 hours ago, PJetski said:

Being able to move before casting would make the double turn stronger. These two things seem to be at odds.

Regarding Look Out Sir, I think it would be cool if there was a Core battalion that copied the generic bodyguard thing from Cities of Sigmar. Something like this:

• 1 HERO (Must be your army general)
• 1 Battleline unit
• Look Out Sir: You can roll a dice whenever you allocate a wound or mortal wound to the general in this battalion while they are within 1" of the Battleline unit in this battalion. On a 5+ that wound is allocated to the Battleline unit instead. Add 1 to this roll if the source of the wound or mortal wound is >3" from the general
• 100 points

You could have variable costs depending on the faction, and depending on the hero keywords (eg. a MONSTER general makes the battalion cost more)

That would be pretty cool. I Have some Grot Knights I converted back for Warcry, and would fit really well for a bodyguard unit. Or you could do Skragrott with some Rockgut Troggoths guarding him, kind of like his Dankhold bodyguards from the novel.

 

[zilberfrid]

10 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Thank the horned rat that all of the skaven battalions are useless, I will not ever miss them

I have two batallion Cities armies, Hammerhal lancers and Aetherwind runners, though I could also scrounge up enough wizards for Hallowheart and arty for Greywater (this concludes all relevant batallions in Cities). I played one game before cities with a Free Peoples' regiment.

I like making lists around them, but bonus AND drops AND CP AND artifact was way too polarizing.

Just the bonus is enough (with a reduction in points, of course). This makes them still fluffy, but not as deciding

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 hours ago, BigNStinky said:

But, realistically, a lot of very good factions (ex: Seraphon) and some less than good factions (ex: Gloomspite) can generate a very large sum of command points and may not be incentivized to take the the second turn regardless of the command point bonus. This also plays into how the new generic battalions will work - will they still confer the artifacts and command points? Or will we be buying those separately (or not at all?).

I also know that not all artifacts are equal and assigning a generic points value to all of them would be  a mistake as some are just flat out better than others so I do not see them untying them from battalions just yet.

I get this line of thinking, but from my point of view this is just another way some armies can differ. Look at the new Gravlords: They have basically no shooting units, but we all understand that this is just an area they are weak in. They will likely be good in other areas, like melee, magic and unit resurrection.

Command points and artefacts are really a similar thing in my mind. Another area where a faction can be strong or weak. It does not necessarily have to be a problem that some factions get more out of an extra artefact or an extra command point than others. That can just be a difference between armies. In a way, I think that can be flavourful, too. Disciplined armies that can generate a lot of comman points will be more comfortable dictating the flow of battle, and armies full of the best craftsmen will have better artefacts. As long as those armies have weak points elsewhere, I think that's not necessarily a problem.

[Yondaime]

12 hours ago, PJetski said:

Being able to move before casting would make the double turn stronger. These two things seem to be at odds.

Regarding Look Out Sir, I think it would be cool if there was a Core battalion that copied the generic bodyguard thing from Cities of Sigmar. Something like this:

• 1 HERO (Must be your army general)
• 1 Battleline unit
• Look Out Sir: You can roll a dice whenever you allocate a wound or mortal wound to the general in this battalion while they are within 1" of the Battleline unit in this battalion. On a 5+ that wound is allocated to the Battleline unit instead. Add 1 to this roll if the source of the wound or mortal wound is >3" from the general
• 100 points

You could have variable costs depending on the faction, and depending on the hero keywords (eg. a MONSTER general makes the battalion cost more)

This will make actual bodyguards (auric, bladelords etc) competlely useless 

this is a really tought point to discuss because you really risk to make heroes too much strong, i know in 40k you cant target heroes but they dont have the same weight on the game, also, with the sheer mole of shooting in 40k without this rule they would be dead turn 1 most of the times

but on the other side sentinels/ko/seraphon are a thing  

[zilberfrid]

10 minutes ago, Yondaime said:

but on the other side sentinels/ko/seraphon are a thing  

Sad Cities shooting noises. We're not even on the list anymore.

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

2 hours ago, Yondaime said:

This will make actual bodyguards (auric, bladelords etc) competlely useless 

this is a really tought point to discuss because you really risk to make heroes too much strong, i know in 40k you cant target heroes but they dont have the same weight on the game, also, with the sheer mole of shooting in 40k without this rule they would be dead turn 1 most of the times

but on the other side sentinels/ko/seraphon are a thing  

I don't think I would go that far. I think bodyguard special abilities would still have a place and provide options on how to use heroes.  Though, I won't argue these changes may make bodyguard units less attractive to take overall.  Maybe it's because I see AoS as being a melee focused game, but it isn't like being able to pass wounds isn't still useful to keep your heroes going far longer than they should. I mean one of the most powerful (and overlooked) abilities the Genestealer Cults have is Unquestioning Loyalty which can nearly preserve a character model all game long as a player feed chaff to take the damage.  Usually, in melee has been my experience.

I wouldn't be surprised if AoS 3rd edition goes toward 9th edition 40k style game missions/battleplans. Basically revolves around objective play a whole lot more.  Again, I see AoS being even more melee focused than 40k which currently is more melee focused than it's been in years (part of the reason the Tau are struggling is due to this).  I could see, Lookout, Sir! going to how it works in 40k (which I do like) with the expectation that heroes are more likely be in the fray.  Which keeps bodyguard units in business.

I honestly don't like the current, Lookout, Sir! rules in AoS.  To the point I prefer no using ranged attacks to target heroes even if it might be the best option. To me, if kinda feels cheap to delete a 4-5 foot hero (which I will admit isn't automatic and sometimes can over use resources). Mostly because the games I have played hero units are the part of the army that makes them unique.  Perhaps my area leans heavy on Battleline units, but many of our armies are kinda spam-y beyond the choice of heroes we take.  I want to these heroes do what they do to make their armies a little more unique rather than snipe the hero and my opponent have a little more bland game from there.

[Skreech Verminking]

The current look out sir isn’t a bad rule, it was actually pretty ok at the beginning of the second edition.

were it got problematic was with the magic phase of seraphons, who literally just ignore line of sight, have a casting range for some of their spells of 30inches to no limits at all, and with some shooting u uts just basically hitting on 2s or threes rerolling everythin while other just plainly don’t care about line of sight and can dish out a huge amount of mortal wounds without much thoughts in a turn.

Those things really just made the current look ou

t sir rullle really just plainly awful.

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[PJetski]

I don't want heroes to be immune to magic/shooting until you cut through 30+ chaff but I also don't want players to lose a key unit at the start of every battle.

I think the best solution is to add bodyguard units for every faction, specifically good at blocking ranged attacks. Core Battalions are an elegant way of introducing that concept.

[lare2]

20 hours ago, Nos said:

Gameplay which encourages unit formations and not conga lines 

 

I'd like to see the unit coherency rules from 40k cross over. It's a real neat way to ensure units don't conga across the board. This would also mean there's no need for "wholly within." 

In truth, there's a lot in 9th ed. 40k which I think would transition over well. Time was AoS would influence 40k but I think with this edition, we should get some ideas flowing back this way. 

[Skreech Verminking]

24 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I don't want heroes to be immune to magic/shooting until you cut through 30+ chaff but I also don't want players to lose a key unit at the start of every battle.

I think the best solution is to add bodyguard units for every faction, specifically good at blocking ranged attacks. Core Battalions are an elegant way of introducing that concept.

Maybe it is time for heroes with less the 10 wounds to be able to join a unit.

[PJetski]

9 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Maybe it is time for heroes with less the 10 wounds to be able to join a unit.

That would make heroes immune to damage until you kill the rest of the unit, and as I stated I am not in favour of that.

[Skreech Verminking]

39 minutes ago, PJetski said:

That would make heroes immune to damage until you kill the rest of the unit, and as I stated I am not in favour of that.

Well what ever it is that gw decides I’ll be there to play the game (unless they remove the faction that is holding aos together (skaven!!!))

Edited May 11, 2021 by Skreech Verminking