Gauche

Took a week off from gaming but I think the Haves and Have Nots of KO are pretty understood by now. I don't foresee a pure shooting list as being able to work. I mean I've taken the Shootiest lists possible and it's still a massive slog against a lot of armies. Right now the game is totally based around being as unkillable as possible, Rend 1 is effectively useless except for killing chaff and so on. We simply can't punch through things like 3+ Save Heroes, 2/3+ Save units, etc. with any appreciable ease. I still like Barak-Nar, the Unbinds are so important against every Faction that's doing well and having a ton of CP on Turn 1 has been way more valuable than I expected. Pretty much every-game I can At the Double a unit to develop it, use Redeploy to avoid some Turn 1 crack back, and have no shortage of AoD/AoA. I've been disappointed in the Alpha-Beast Pack, the fact that it goes off before Priority is decided makes it way less useful for us. I'd still take it in double Ironclad because what else is there but otherwise ****** it. My gut feeling is KO has to make Gotrek work so I'm going back to that. We need the Mortal Wounds, we need the zoning, and we need the Rend 2. Otherwise we just lose to the armies that build for durability and stand on Objectives (SCE, MoN, etc.) while still having the problem matchups. This takes away from the Alpha Strike of a Zilfin list or a double Ironclad/ABP list but I just don't see a way around that. The only other options are rely on 6's from Endrinmasters or SiaB to generate Mortals but both methods have huge downsides. Right now my sticking point is whether to run a FULL BattleBoat (5 Endrinmasters) or cut down to three and pick up a Frigate. The Frigate gives some more Shooting and blocking while also restoring some of that Alpha Strike threat with the ABP, Endrinmasters just hit hard and tax an opponents CP for AoD in multiple phases. I'm tempted to go with the Frigate because KO rarely wants to go first so you really have to layer on the Alpha Strike potential and scare people into wanting their buffs/positioning up first. The only Faction I cared about Turn Order against was LRL, with Teclis, because PoTeclis is so nuts. But I just started taking a Navigator with the Orb so that solved that issue, you get your one Spell and nothing else or I stop the only Spell I care about. Realistically I think Cities just plays a better version of our army right now. Irondrakes blow us out of the water because of Rend 2 and they can make them work a lot better than we can. They also have infinitely more combos and cheeky stuff because of their unit access/variety. I'm still trying to make KO work as best they can though. :]

Why would you ever shoot the one that's on a 2+? They have four targets. At the very best one can get TFH, one can get the 5++ Relic, one can get AoD. Mystic Shield is a possibility but lists I've seen aren't running it over the 5++ and I don't think it's a good build for them. With the guns you brought you can easily punch through the weak one. If they stack bonuses then there are two weak ones so you have some choice. If they bunch up then they lose the Mission, just not the one you played because it's insanely stacked in their favor and one of the worst Missions in the GHB, you just plink away and play not to get doubled. Still just a loss due to the Mission, try the matchup again with literally any other Mission and I think you'd have a better time. :] Personally I'm hoping SoB get more and more popular, they dumpster the armies that we struggle with for the moment.

Yup those all exist. I'm not sure what list you took but I make sure I can drop a Gargant a Turn with plenty of guns extra, it's just something your list has to be able to do if you're looking to play competitively. SoB are a very cheap army to get (if you use non-GW sculpts), very easy to play, and massively rewarding. They're one of the big DPS Checks but we have all the tools to beat it. One of the positives is it's an easy matchup to work out on paper because they have so few permutations and have such a direct game plan.

Yeah that's definitely the worst Mission for KO against nearly anything. I wouldn't be too bitter, that's his best possible Mission and your worst. Anything else is a lot tougher.

Interested to see how that goes as they're a major player right now and I think one of KOs best matchups. Gargants can't do much of anything against guns, at best it's TFH one, 5++ one, AoD one. Then you just kill the other one. Next kill the one that lacks TFH and from there it's smoother sailing. -1 to Hit also wrecks them if you can get it.

That seems strictly inferior to double Ironclad double Thunderers. You have one slow 'Clad that will take ages to deliver the Arkanauts at 5" and no Fly High. No Healing. No Combat. Can't pair with ABP because the units are too big so they're either stranded or still no Fly High. What would be the upsides?

Running some numbers on Arkanauts their output is respectable and you can easily put 100 of them on the table. Probably one big unit up front then single units both because of Reinforcements and to get extra Volley Pistols or maybe two big units. Admiral is necessary then probably just as many Aether-Khemists as is necessary for the re-rolls and the -1 to Hit. Sky Ports could go a lot of ways. Custom one gives you Run and Shoot in Turn 1 and an open Command Trait. Barak-Nar lets you get two Immune to Battleshock Auras and the Unbinds. Zilfin lets you run 6" Auto and a pre-game move with a big block but that seems mediocre. Mhornar gives Run and Shoot Turn 1, , a once per game Fight First, and one of the best artifacts in the army. Finally Thryng provides some combat protection from stuff dying uselessly, re-roll 1's (big), and a good once per game. I'd probably go Mhornar, the Command Trait is 100% useless but it is what it is. Weakness is other Shooting armies and Magic. I think you'd just straight up lose to another KO army, an Ironclad just pick up an average of 10 bodies a Turn without any buffs. Against one plus 40 Thunderers, a common package, you lose another 14 a Turn with no buffs so you get tabled in 4 Turns, less with Battleshock maybe. I think where the list would fall apart is just the threat ranges, 13" is so little. Fast armies will just pick a flank, kill that, and you can't bring everything to bear. Some Missions would also be really hard. Seems like one of those lists that looks good on paper but really struggles on the tabletop. That said you could get like 140 Arkanauts easily...

New game against OBR. Played against DoK but didn't do a write-up although I touch on the game briefly.

Looks very well-rounded, I took an almost identical list and it did well, just wasn't how I wanted to play. I dropped the Endrinriggers for a third Arkanaut unit and shuffled some other stuff around slightly but I think it was 95% the same. Irondrakes are super good, you just have to be very vigilant on defending them. Their Unleash Hell is good but not as scary as you think it would be on paper. On my front double Ironclad has run well so far. I lost a very close game to DoK with the -1 to Hit Temple so feel super good about that. I think any other Temple would just get run over. DoK can't handle that much shooting vanilla, their units are so papery and we get around the Blood Stalker Deathstar so well. I expect them to be a pretty strong Faction so that was a buoying experience.

That's the most likely argument we found to say they're Allies but as with an ever-increasing number of things in 3rd, it's murky. Fortunately I only cared for purposes of a non-serious list but a definitive answer would be nice for everyone. :]

We determined that nothing says they are, they just exist in the void. I just got tired of people on here shouting me down when they didn't read the relevant rules. : /

The Mega-Gargant is definitely fun but nowhere is he a named character, otherwise SoB couldn't give any of their models Artifacts either. He can take an Artifact just fine. I agree Gotrek is better, I just need a not-so-competitive list as well. As for Gotrek, he's still too slow to work. In some Missions he's fine but in others you'll spend three Turns just getting him around. He also just dies to massed missile attacks so Cities, LRL, KO, DoT, and a few more armies will just nuke him if they want to. Now he's not hard to hide being so small of a model but that may dictate where he can go. Double Ironclad felt very good. Went against Skaven and picked up Thanquol, two WLCs, an Archwarlock, a Bombadier, and 5 Acolytes on Turn 1 even with fairly poor dice rolling on my part. Thunderers didn't get out either so could have been a tad more damage. It was so nice not having the useless Frigate and I didn't miss the Khemists much. I really wish I had another Hero but three Endrinmasters is a good enough of a Battle Boat to put into Battleline and such.

Yeah I think it's a more for fun unit. For whatever it's worth I haven't found anything that says you can't give it an Artifact. The FAQ makes it clear they're not Allies, they're Mercenaries, and nothing I've read in the SoB, FAQs, or Core Rules say Mercenaries can't have Universal Enhancements. If there is and I missed it I'd like to know though. My local FB Group found nothing.

Yeah Khemists aren't bad by any means, I just had to cut some muscle along with fat. At the end of the day I find the melee and healing more valuable along with trying to get some early CP through Heroes. I've also toyed with taking a Kraken-Eater, punting Objectives is super valuable for KO and I typically find myself doing almost nothing with my Heroic Actions. I don't think it's a better option overall but I may give it some table time when I can. Basically the list would be: - Ironclad -1x10 Thunderers - Aetherwings + Kraken-Eater + Endrinmaster (4 Total) + 10 Arkanauts + Admiral Definitely a very different list. Still enough shooting to pick up 1-2 medium units a turn but the melee is cranked up to 11. Barak-Nar nullifies losing the CP from the Mercenary Gargant, the Ironclad becomes a massive melee threat, it has to die before I get a Turn or it heals a billion. Gargant can do TFH/Recovery although the list becomes more CP Hungry since he wants AoA/AoD depending. Maybe just AoD with its Mercenary ability, depends on the situation. Might be something I just take for fun games because two Ironclads is very frustrating for almost every army to play around, lots of standing on Objectives and rolling Saves.

I've going to try this in a few games this weekend: Barak-Nar 3x Endrinmasters (One General, one w/ Aether-Rune) 2x Ironclad w/ Cannons (Last Word on one) 10x Arkanauts 2x10 Thunderers w/ 2x All Special Weapons 3x Aetherwings Running the math the Aether-Khemist isn't that great for this list and if the Thunderers start taking hits he falls off more. Instead I wanted the healing/melee. You can also fit it into a three drop with Alpha Beast Pack and Battle Regiment. Not sure if it's the best way to run it but it looks okay on paper, just threat overload.

I've been playing Barak-Nar so Unbinds are not something I lack, for other SkyPorts I agree the Tome is very good. That and a Navigator will get in there very nicely.

Updated with several new games, should be updated regularly now. :]

Definitely been considering a similar list. Frigates are just god-awful and feel like a huge tax in my current army, their output is garbage for the cost. My Ironclad on the other hand can actually handle being Charged, doesn't need AoA (although it's welcomed), and has more than double the output for less than double the cost. KO seem to be living off just a few units at the moment but boy are those units good.

I guess I'm on a similar wave-length in I think it works that way just because I've been playing GW games for so long and I have a good "feel" for what they intend which is almost always correct. But the rules are very, very murky on this one while also being of extreme importance. It's something I would check with a TO before going to an event for sure, it's that murky. I will likely play it this way until either another consensus is made or we get a better FAQ/new book but I just wish I felt better about it.

I need quotes from the relevant rules saying you can do EVERYTHING you want to do. If the Skyvessels don't follow Garrison rules then we can't start inside them, if they do then we can't get out of them whenever we want. It can't be both ways from how I read the rules, can you please go into extreme detail with citations why you believe things work the way they do? Not only for my own education, but so I have something to point to when playing games.

I've played him in a few games, he's good but he still felt very expensive and slow. I think he'd do better if you played a foot style KO army, along with the Runelord and some other pieces. He will also just die to armies that can put out a lot of decent ranged attacks, people still seem to think Terrain shouldn't exist in AoS games. --------------------------------------------------------- Question about various parts of the Flying Transport rule now that we are post FAQ. As I read and understand it Skyvessels have nothing to do with Garrisons for the most part, we can leave during the Movement Phase as long as the Skyvessel itself hasn't moved for example. But that also seems to suggest we can't start models inside Skyvessels since there is no allowance for that UNLESS they're part of the same Warscroll Battalion, which are illegal for Matched Play. This would preclude something like Alpha Beast Pack from having any use since you'd be Fly High'ing empty boats. The only way I see around that is if we are Garrisons and then we take the bad parts of that too. Really wish the FAQ had done a better job of explaining the interaction.....

I don't think KO skews into MWs well, it can be done but it's not effective in my eyes. WLV is going to get you nothing more than 2d3 usually, I don't gamble for 6's on the targets you need, but a smart opponent with a capable army will screen the things they care for off from the Endless Spell. So you're either dropping it later, when the Monsters are already rolling around, or sooner to limited effect. I don't hate Endrinmasters in some kind of Skyvessel as a weird little Combat loadout but the issue is they all have to activate singularly so again a smart opponent will try to kill the ones that haven't fought (with a CA to act at full Profile to boot, most likely,, since we're talking Monsters). Something Archaon or Nagash size you just ignore and accept the free win, I'm more worried about the ones where you can take them and still have an army. With two Monsters I actually think it's EASIER to deal with them unless they have multiple Artifacts/Traits to ignore Rend or somehow nerf shooting. If I have two VLoZD and +1 Save via Artifact to one, the other is the target. If you AoD it then I'm still on 3's to Save after Rend, acceptable, so they have to Mystic Shield or something and make them equally unappealing. But at least some of those things have counter-play, I'd be more interested in taking Geminids for example because then I at least guarantee no Commands, I'm getting my damage off the back end instead of front-loading with another Endless Spell. I guess the good news is besides those kind of configurations, which I don't think will be ever-present, KO can handle basically everything and rocks. Just gotta figure out these pieces, hopefully through more games. :]

I had an interesting situation come up in a game recently that I think we played correctly, it just doesn't feel intended. Let me break this down in a few places: Wobbly Model For those who aren't in the know Wobbly Model was a popular, and bad, 40K Rule where if a model could not physically stand on the battlefield terrain you and your opponent could "agree" where it was. This was supposed to be used for things like rocky terrain or other pieces that models can't stand flat on but was used in other ways that were pretty gamey. Now AoS doesn't have this rule but it also doesn't NOT have it. What I mean by this is the rules for Normal Movement and so on in AoS are quite loose, basically you just trace and pivot freely with some caveats for Terrain. Nothing ever mentions that a model's base must rest completely on a Terrain Feature so from that I infer if you can physically place a model onto Terrain, it can go there. There's no provision for if it can't stand on its own two proverbial feet but as long as it doesn't fall it can go there. Charging For a Charge to be successful you must move the first model in the Charging unit to within 1/2" of the enemy unit. All Distances are explicitly mentioned as being from base to base, no exceptions. If this can't be done then the Charge fails, full stop. You can of course move up/over/down Terrain as normal but you must pay for that movement, also as normal. Putting It Together So, what this added up to in my game was an Ironclad moved onto a Terrain Feature that it's base was larger than but could easily also stand on without issue. This made the Ironclad 100% unchargeable. There was no room on the same "level" of the Terrain Feature that the Ironclad was on so you cannot possibly get with 1/2". You also wouldn't be able to ever Attack it in the Combat Phase unless you had a unit with at least 2" Range for Melee Weapons who can Pile In outside of 3". Now, this was a very niche interaction and there are numerous ways to solve it without house rules. We could have simply said the Terrain Feature is Garrisonable, then I can't land on it. You can also just avoid Terrain that is multi-level, small, and where you can balance a base/s on it to take up all the real-estate. Still, in a Tournament setting or similar I'd have expected this to work by my reading of the rules even if I wish it didn't. So, am I reading all this correctly? The only thing I see in the FAQ is that models can climb Terrain AND you can remember how far it has climbed, measuring "distances and visibility" to or from that model as if it were there. So that seems like a work around at least but I think it would have been better to just include a vertical range in addition to a horizontal one.

I'm thinking of running 2x10 Thunderers, never wanted them to be Battleline though. I like my Arkanauts and a 15 man unit means they're walking or all alone in a Skyvessel, or making that Skyvessel very ineffective. Looking at options for killing durable Monsters/Heroes all I can see are Gotrek, Celestant-Prime, Bomblets + Hope, Irondrakes + Runelord, and that's it. Feels like that is going to be a big problem for the army, we just don't have that fighty or shooty piece with Rend 2 or better. There's not an overwhelming amount of those threats out there: VLoZD, Mawkrusha, Bastiladons, SCE Stuff, Mortarchs, and Archaon is about the extent (might have missed a few). So thinking to KO it's basically either fight fire with fire, or ignore and kill other stuff. Redeploy and either multi-level Terrain or the Galeforce Stave seem like the choices to ignore stuff, that's not so bad. Then you can handle the defensively souped up offering and kill the others, if any. Remaining downside is Artifact for +1 Saves or similar effect combined with Mystic Shield, then you're back to square one. At least Mystic Shield can be interacted with.....

Blarg, I did miss that and just glossed over it as an amendment to one piece in my head. They've made a lot of changes that are sneakily breaking things. That pretty much tanks them then as the only point is getting Irondrakes that re-roll 1's to Hit and can do exploding 6's. Only Allegiance I'm interested in otherwise is Barak-Mhornar. Privateer can give some work around to people playing other Alpha Strike armies and Galeforce Stave is actually a nuts Artifact with the smaller table and increased threat density from armies like SBGL. Other than that I'd rather build a Skyport, Zilfin is just on an old playstyle that's not going to work anymore. The issue also remains as for what to do about native 3+ or 2+ Saves as KO cannot handle them on their own without relying on the opponent making a mistake. Maybe just take Bomblets and hope for the best.