Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[swarmofseals]

2 hours ago, Siegfried VII said:

I have done some math-hammer using the AoS Statshammer app and I find Wardens much better in the offence than Stoneguard. In the picture below we have the stats for both units without any buffs on the left  and on the right we have the buffed versions. Stoneguard has the +1 attack from the Avelanor/Spirit of the Mountain command ability and the Stonemage Stance for +1 rend and the Wardens are empowered my the Power of Hysh spell.

The difference in damage output is quite significant in my opinion but the problem is that in the case of Stoneguard I have invested a 340/360pts monster, a 130pts Mage (a difficult buff to use as you have stated yourself) and I have spent a precious command point to make them only marginally better than the warden unit without any buffs. With their spell the Wardens become much better and I have only spent the points for this unit to have the effect. My point is the they are self sufficient and buff themselves. All this without taking into account their bonus when they get charged. On top of that they are double the number of models for objecive scoring (which in the end is how we'll win the game).

As for defence in order for the Stoneguard to be great they need a specific nation, a battalion and even then unless you take Avelanor having the stonemage wholly within 12 inches of them to get the reroll for their saves will be mighty tricky.  Also they will suffer against units that get to fight at the beginning of the combat phase as in the opponent's turn will all but negate the ability.

Now I haven't done the math, but against -1 rend shooting (which is the majority of the shooting out there) and with Wardens in shinning formation getting a -1 to hit I don't seem them be all that better defensively..

Of course I will have to play some games in order to see all these theories/statistics in action, but my first impression is that the Wardens are a superior choice in competitive terms.. Regarding your other observations I mostly agree though.. 🙂 

I'm not familiar with the AoS Statshammer app but the math is off at least somewhat. Diamondpick Hammers are generally the better option for stoneguard, and it's actually better to not give the champion Stratum Hammers. I also think you probably want to skip the standard bearer, although that could be argued either way. Regardless, the math that I was referring to completely controls for the unit cost as it's a measure of damage per point. I don't deny that wardens are more efficient on offense, but that it's not that big of a difference.

Defensively I showed the math in my post. You don't get hosed by things that fight at the start of the combat phase because Mountain Stance is triggered in your own hero phase or before the battle starts. I also don't see taking the battalion or Avalenor as a real cost here as you need to keep your drops low (and thus want the battalion), and you want Avalenor anyway as he's probably the most clearly good hero option LRL has. Some battleplans really favor having a tough hero and, well, Avalenor is the only option. He's also quite good in his own right. I don't think you need to be in Ymetrica to make stoneguard far far better than wardens on defense, although it does certainly help. Also, keep in mind that with the battalion you just have to be WW 12 of any hero. So if you take Avalenor and the stonemage you have two options for your 12" bubble which makes it much easier to pull off.

You're absolutely right about model count for objectives though, although Stoneguard being able to push the opponent off objectives is also relevant here.

[ObsidianCrane]

New to AoS and trying to understand artifacts.

In the following:
GN: Ilithia

1x Eltharion
1x Cathalar (General)
2x Wardens
2x Sentinels
1x Auralan Legion

Can Eltharion get the Simulacra Amulet or must it go to the Cathalar?

[Luck-a]

20 minutes ago, ObsidianCrane said:

New to AoS and trying to understand artifacts.

In the following:
GN: Ilithia

1x Eltharion
1x Cathalar (General)
2x Wardens
2x Sentinels
1x Auralan Legion

Can Eltharion get the Simulacra Amulet or must it go to the Cathalar?

It must go on the Cathalar. Note this isn’t because she is the general, but because Eltharion is a named character, and therefore cannot have artefacts.

[Aloth_Corfiser]

I have only sort of skimmed through the Warden vs Stoneguard debate - but what about the utility of Wardens for Casting Endless Spells?
When Wardens are placed in the frontline they have a nice threat-range to cast many nasty Spells. Imagine a Prismatic Palisade blocking Line of Sight and debuffing to hit for your opponent. 

[Beliman]

12 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Zaitrec seems like it should be the best option. Resolving Power of Hysh is just so important in making Sentinels and Wardens good, so the +1 to cast seems really hard to give up. Overwhelming Heat is also very good. The other characteristics are minor at best.

I think that the  Hyshian Twinstones can have some use in that type of lists. They just cost 30p, cast on 5+ (If I remember correctly) and with Zaitrec, you have a 4+(3+ with aetherquarz) to summon them.
You can use them everytime a Lumineth Mage cast spell within 12" (not wholly within), and the dice can't go down to 0 (so every spell have at least +1 to cast), and for every spell that you cast, the next one can be buffed with +2 to be cast. So, assuming that you will not fail your cast, you could go +1/+2/+1/+2/etc...

Don't know if it's worth, but seems so nice to have some type of spell rotation and jsut going for a 8+ spell with +3 to casts.

[Jaskier]

The Twinstones are a key component of the list I plan on taking to a GT in October. Basically, Teclis/Celennar's aura + Zaitrec + Twinstones means a minimum +3 to cast for all my units, with Teclis empowering them before I attempt to cast any super important spells (i.e. Geminids.) Idea is to brute force the magic capabilities of the army, and resist magic in turn with major bonuses to unbinding and the 4+ ignore and reflect aura. For 30 points, I see the Twinstones as a must if you're taking Teclis and/or running a Zaitrec list.  

Edited July 4, 2020 by Jaskier

[woolf]

question on twinstones:

if I use the buff to cast, the dice reset to 1. but the text says reset happens "after the effect of the spell is resolved". does that mean that if my spell is unbound, the dice does not reset? ie I can do another attempt at eg +2?

cheers

[fsvnf]

30 minutes ago, woolf said:

question on twinstones:

if I use the buff to cast, the dice reset to 1. but the text says reset happens "after the effect of the spell is resolved". does that mean that if my spell is unbound, the dice does not reset? ie I can do another attempt at eg +2?

cheers

Based on my understanding, yes you can get a +2 as a minimum.

Both the reset to 1 and the +1 from casting happen "after the effects of the spell have been resolved". As they are simultaneous actions happening on your turn you get to choose the order they resolve.

[Falkman]

Keep in mind that it is likely to get FAQed though, I cannot see that being the intent behind the rule (even though as written it definitely works that way).

[Sleepers]

So... I was re-reading the aetherquartz abilities and it says you add 1 to the save roll (not that it modifies the save itself) so would this work with ethereal? 
I know the default answer is no.. you can’t modify the save if you’re ethereal, but the wording has me thinking it’s not doing that?

I’m sure I’m wrong, and it doesn’t work, just want to double check.

[Falkman]

9 minutes ago, Sleepers said:

So... I was re-reading the aetherquartz abilities and it says you add 1 to the save roll (not that it modifies the save itself) so would this work with ethereal? 
I know the default answer is no.. you can’t modify the save if you’re ethereal, but the wording has me thinking it’s not doing that?

I’m sure I’m wrong, and it doesn’t work, just want to double check.

Adding or subtracting from the roll is what all modifiers do. You never modify the actual save value on the warscroll, it’s always + or - to the roll. So no, it doesn’t work together with Ethereal.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Falkman

[ChrisNoAnts]

16 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I've now got my own copy of the battletome and have been trying to wrap my head around it. I really, really want these guys to be good but the more I try the more frustrated I get!

Disclaimer: all of this is from a competitive perspective. I think these guys are going to be perfectly viable in almost any configuration in a casual or semi-competitive environment. ALL of the warscrolls are good enough to use, and now that I've crunched the numbers I'm fairly confident that I was wrong about too many warscrolls being redundant. There's very little redundancy in the book.

First, here are my brief thoughts on all of the warscrolls:

  Reveal hidden contents

• Teclis - Ultra powerful, game defining warscroll but also a massive liability in any metagame that has a good amount of shooting. If all of your locals are melee or magic hounds then Teclis could be a great meta call. Against an unknown opponent though I think he just raises the % of games that you auto-lose too much.
• Eltharion - He's fine, but I don't really see why you'd want to take him from a competitive standpoint. His damage output is good for a hero on foot, and his defensive efficiency is good for a hero on foot but he's incredibly weak to mortal wounds, is slow, and doesn't do anything that other warscrolls don't already do. I'd rather have more wardens, stoneguard or whatever than him.
• Avalenor - This guy seems very good. He provides a little ranged support, has OK damage efficiency for a hero/monster (although still worse than regular units) and OK defensive efficiency for a hero/monster. His -1 hit aura is really nice, and I think he will be a key part of the Stoneguard battalion as it provides a second hero with which to trigger the battalion ability. His CA is also really, really good. Solid all around warscroll that does a little bit of everything.
• Alarith Spirit of the Mountain - Almost strictly worse than Avalenor, I can only imagine taking one if for some reason I want two big monsters. He's not a hero (which matters for some battleplans). His support abilities are significantly worse, his damage efficiency is a bit lower when charging and a bit higher when not charging, and his defensive efficiency is a bit worse. Unless you absolutely MUST have that 20 points for something else, Avalenor is going to be better 95% of the time.
• The mages - both seem decent but you're not building a list around them.
• Alarith Stoneguard - Very, very good defensive infantry. I think it's worth comparing them to Phoenix Guard, Mortek Guard, and Hearthguard Berserkers. Offensively Stoneguard are fine. At their peak they are better than Phoenix Guard but I think will be roughly comparable in average game situations. But they are much worse than buffed Mortek Guard or Hearthguard Berserkers. Defensively they are nothing to write home about outside their battalion -- good but definitely not great. In their battalion though they are only beaten by Petrifex Mortek Guard against rend 0 melee and actually beat Petrifex Mortek Guard against rend 1 (and rend 2 if Ymetrica). They beat out Phoenix Guard and Hearthguard in melee against all conventional attacks, but are much worse against mortal wounds. Against ranged attacks Phoenix Guard and Hearthguard are better and Petrifex Mortek Guard are a bit better. That said, their defense is vulnerable to hero sniping in a way that PG and MG isn't.
• Vanari Dawnriders - The only fast unit available, I don't see how you can go without at least a unit of these or maybe two. They are also extremely efficient against 1 wound infantry and very efficient against 2 wound infantry, but they are awful against other targets. They absolutely can't be relied on as the core of an army.
• Vanari Auralan Sentinels - I think these are one of the most unique strengths in the roster. They are incredible hero snipers and a very good source of mortal wounds at range. Their damage output is not great against cheap wounds though, so again like dawnriders they are a niche role and I don't see them as a viable core. They are also horrible defensively and incredibly vulnerable to enemy ranged units.
• Vanari Auralan Wardens - Despite their billing these guys are actually not defensively efficient, even in their battalion and in the Shining Company formation. In Shining Company and in their battalion they are decently efficient against rend 0 but not good against any other damage type. Otherwise they are only OK defensively in Shining Company and quite bad outside of it. They are slow (especially in Shining Company), but their damage output is quite respectable. At base they are good but not great, but with Power of Hysh active they are very good. Their Wizard status gives them some utility, too. But overall they are slow and don't excel at anything -- a combination of characteristics that you almost never see in competitive units. The problem is that unless you go Ymetrica then you have to take at least two units of these guys for your battleline.

Thoughts on Great Nations:

  Reveal hidden contents

• The two ones that seem competitive to me are Ymetrica and Zaitrec with maybe Syar as a dark horse.
• Zaitrec seems like it should be the best option. Resolving Power of Hysh is just so important in making Sentinels and Wardens good, so the +1 to cast seems really hard to give up. Overwhelming Heat is also very good. The other characteristics are minor at best.
• Ymetrica definitely makes Alarith units more reliable, but beyond that everything else is really mediocre. The key thing is making Stoneguard battleline.

So this leads me to the following frustrations:

• Stoneguard are the only warscroll that is good enough at what it does to form a viable core to the army, but they aren't battleline and they aren't good enough all around (like Mortek Guard or Hearthguard Berserkers) to actually carry the army.
• Wardens are probably the worst non-hero/monster warscroll, but also the only battleline option outside Ymetrica.
• Sentinels and Dawnriders both seem necessary, but neither can really form the core of the army as they are also niche. They (especially Sentinels) also really want to be in Zaitrec.
• The army has no screening unit. Wardens can't really screen in Shining Company (and are too expensive for the role anyway), and Stoneguard who could screen are bad at it because they are 2W per base instead of 1.

In the end I can't figure out how to build a legal list that will actually do what I want it to do reliably.

If I go Ymetrica, my Sentinels become much less reliable. If I go Zaitrec I don't have enough points to keep my drops to a reasonable level, get the support units that I need and get enough Stoneguard to form a core.

I don't really see how any build of Lumineth beats Deepkin, Tzeentch, or a ranged heavy Cities or Seraphon build. If you go too heavy on sentinels, then I think you can add Orruk Warclans to that list.

So yeah, I feel pretty stuck.

Thank you for sharing your detailed analysis, this saved me a lot of time.

I've got a bit of an alternative take on the matter. When we compare points for damage / defense efficiency we factor in a lot of faction stuff. What we cannot properly compute though is our ability to fight twice during combat, which can have a huge impact on actual unit performance as it sort of works offensively and defensively simultaneously.

When we consider that our defense can potentially be great while our damage is mostly mediocre, Lightning Reactions could be the thing that pushes everything over the edge outside of efficiency computations. 

[swarmofseals]

5 hours ago, Aloth_Corfiser said:

I have only sort of skimmed through the Warden vs Stoneguard debate - but what about the utility of Wardens for Casting Endless Spells?
When Wardens are placed in the frontline they have a nice threat-range to cast many nasty Spells. Imagine a Prismatic Palisade blocking Line of Sight and debuffing to hit for your opponent. 

This is definitely a way to get some damage out of your extra wizards, but it's yet another points sink, unreliable against armies with good unbinding and also can potentially backfire since LRL are so vulnerable to mortal wounds already.  Utility spells like palisade or twinstones don't have the risk of backfiring so much, of course. Anyway, a big part of the problem with a slow army is that the onus will be on you to dislodge your opponent from objectives in many games. Turtling up may be viable in some battleplans, but across a long tournament it won't be reliable.

4 hours ago, Beliman said:

I think that the  Hyshian Twinstones can have some use in that type of lists. They just cost 30p, cast on 5+ (If I remember correctly) and with Zaitrec, you have a 4+(3+ with aetherquarz) to summon them.
You can use them everytime a Lumineth Mage cast spell within 12" (not wholly within), and the dice can't go down to 0 (so every spell have at least +1 to cast), and for every spell that you cast, the next one can be buffed with +2 to be cast. So, assuming that you will not fail your cast, you could go +1/+2/+1/+2/etc...

Don't know if it's worth, but seems so nice to have some type of spell rotation and jsut going for a 8+ spell with +3 to casts.

Yeah, twinstones are likely going to be very useful. BUT they themselves are vulnerable to getting unbound, so they don't really solve much against an army with serious unbinding power already.

 

[whispersofblood]

8 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I'm not familiar with the AoS Statshammer app but the math is off at least somewhat. Diamondpick Hammers are generally the better option for stoneguard, and it's actually better to not give the champion Stratum Hammers. I also think you probably want to skip the standard bearer, although that could be argued either way. Regardless, the math that I was referring to completely controls for the unit cost as it's a measure of damage per point. I don't deny that wardens are more efficient on offense, but that it's not that big of a difference.

Defensively I showed the math in my post. You don't get hosed by things that fight at the start of the combat phase because Mountain Stance is triggered in your own hero phase or before the battle starts. I also don't see taking the battalion or Avalenor as a real cost here as you need to keep your drops low (and thus want the battalion), and you want Avalenor anyway as he's probably the most clearly good hero option LRL has. Some battleplans really favor having a tough hero and, well, Avalenor is the only option. He's also quite good in his own right. I don't think you need to be in Ymetrica to make stoneguard far far better than wardens on defense, although it does certainly help. Also, keep in mind that with the battalion you just have to be WW 12 of any hero. So if you take Avalenor and the stonemage you have two options for your 12" bubble which makes it much easier to pull off.

You're absolutely right about model count for objectives though, although Stoneguard being able to push the opponent off objectives is also relevant here.

Wardens are essentially your drop tax. You can't get to 3 or less drops without them, and I think this faction needs to choose turn order as often as it can. This is especially true if you invest in Sentinels.

I think LRL have a really bad OBR match up, and I'm not optimistic about the Orruk match ups either.

[Beliman]

16 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Yeah, twinstones are likely going to be very useful. BUT they themselves are vulnerable to getting unbound, so they don't really solve much against an army with serious unbinding power already

Imho, that's good for Lumineth.

Even if they try to unbind it, they need to be at 30". That means that they should  be in range of lumineth archers and the enemy will have one less unbind. Another option could be to just summon it from 30,1" from enemy unbinders (it has 12" range).

After being summoned the enemy need to waste a cast to remove the Twinstones, and Lumineth seems to have a lot more spellcasters than other armies.  With Zaitrec and Aetherquarz, it's really eazy to have +2 cast every Hero Phase too.

I think it will be a win/ win scenario unless facing  a Hero Phase powerhouse (like it should be).

Edited July 5, 2020 by Beliman

[John Edwards]

Came across this (not mine):

Original post

Armour is base of wraith bone, mix of contrast medium and contrast skeleton horde, White scar on the edge

[ArchaicArc]

1 hour ago, John Edwards said:

Came across this (not mine):

Original post

Armour is base of wraith bone, mix of contrast medium and contrast skeleton horde, White scar on the edge

I think I’ll copy the cloak, but without the stars, I think it’d look good with just the dry brushing!

[swarmofseals]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

Imho, that's good for Lumineth.

Even if they try to unbind it, they need to be at 30". That means that they should  be in range of lumineth archers and the enemy will have one less unbind. Another option could be to just summon it from 30,1" from enemy unbinders (it has 12" range).

After being summoned the enemy need to waste a cast to remove the Twinstones, and Lumineth seems to have a lot more spellcasters than other armies.  With Zaitrec and Aetherquarz, it's really eazy to have +2 cast every Hero Phase too.

I think it will be a win/ win scenario unless phasing  a Hero Phase powerhouse (like it should be).

The problem with this plan is that it plants the twinstones in your backfield. They only have a 12" range, and you are going to need to push in many battleplans. If it's a battleplan that enables turtling then this may work fine, but in many plans you won't be able to put the stones in your backfield and still benefit when you need them for your wardens (who need to resolve power on the turn that they plan to melee).

[Acid_Nine]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

The problem with this plan is that it plants the twinstones in your backfield. They only have a 12" range, and you are going to need to push in many battleplans. If it's a battleplan that enables turtling then this may work fine, but in many plans you won't be able to put the stones in your backfield and still benefit when you need them for your wardens (who need to resolve power on the turn that they plan to melee).

Well,   I do think it is a mixed blessing that the twin stones are a predatory spell. On one hand if we are going first the opponent can move it out of the way of our advance, which sucks, but on the other hand if we go second we can move it where we need. 

 

A way way we can mitigate this is by having another endless spell act as bait, like the quicksilver swords or the Gnashing jaws, but then we may get damaged by those spells too. I would suggest using a spell like Geminds as bate, but that would mean there is a chance we could get debuffed, which would suck. Still, interesting to think about.

 

by the way, what do you think about using the darkness of the soul spell combined with Voice of the mountain? Darkness of the soul makes it so the target needs a bravery check on 2d6 for them to do anything, including fight. We can debuff the hell out of the enemy bravery with voice and aetherquartz, maybe throw in the ganashing jaws, and suddenly we have a good chance to lock down an entire unit, even if they are battleshock immune.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Acid_Nine

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

I am planning out how to build my army as the rest of the models are released.  I am not looking for competitive optimization as my group generally don't play that way.  That said, I do want to make sure I am doing things correctly as I never had to worry about generating enough Battleline with my S2D army.

Nation: Ymetrica

Hero: Light of Eltherion, Stone Mage

Battleline: Wardens x20, Wardens x20, Dawnriders x5, Dawnriders x5, Sentinels x10, Sentinels x10, Stone Guard (Mallets) x5, Stone Guard (Picks) x5

Behemoth: Spirit of the Mountain

Endless Spell: one of the Lumineth Endless Spells

Should be 1940-1980pts depending on the Endless Spell added .  Not sure if I got the Battleline stuff sorted right.  The app doesn't seem to say something is wrong, but that doesn't mean didn't see it. I kinda want to lean into the Mountain/Stone aspect of the faction, but I don't quite know if I want to commit to price of whatever the Stone Guard box is going to be beyond building a unit of each weapon type.  I figure once I get most this painted, I will have a few games under my belt and can decide if I want more Stone Guard or not.  I figure that list above would be a decent all-rounder with built largely with classic rank and file flair I like as a basis and grounding point to know how to use them.

[LuminethMage]

The battleline requirement is fulfilled, no problems. For every Warden unit you take, you can make one Sentinel or Dawnrider unit battleline. So you have four, the two Wardens units and two out of the four others. 

Edit: Oh yeah - I overlooked that you took Ymetrica. So you have even additional Battleline as Obsidian says below. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by LuminethMage

[ObsidianCrane]

2 hours ago, Saturmorn Carvilli said:

Nation: Ymetrica

Should be 1940-1980pts depending on the Endless Spell added .  Not sure if I got the Battleline stuff sorted right.  The app doesn't seem to say something is wrong, but that doesn't mean didn't see it. 

 

With Ymetrica those Stoneguard are Battleline, so just in Wardens and Stoneguard you have 4 battleline, with the way Wardens work plus your Sentinels you have 6 Battleline.

[ObsidianCrane]

10 hours ago, Beliman said:

Even if they try to unbind it, they need to be at 30". That means that they should  be in range of lumineth archers and the enemy will have one less unbind. Another option could be to just summon it from 30,1" from enemy unbinders (it has 12" range).

I think this idea is a key thing, giving your opponent an array of spells they may need to unbind.

At 30 points I don't see a reason not to take the Twinstones (outside of a Ymetrica Stoneguard based list), their benefit to us is large and your opponent in many cases will have to choose between you getting +1 to cast or getting off other more directly annoying spells to them. Making opponents make choices like this is a key part of the list.

Yes there will be lists out there that can match your caster numbers, but those lists are why you don't want your whole strategy to hinge on casting spells.

[ObsidianCrane]

When you stop trying to build a serious list for Iliatha....

Avalenor, the Stoneheart King (360)
- General
L'aura Pa'lmer (140)
Scinari Cathallar
- Artefact: Silver Wand
- Lore of Hysh: Ethereal Blessing
D'ale Kuuper (130)
Alarith Stonemage
- Artefact: Simulcra Amulet
- Lore of the High Peaks: Voice of the Mountain
Harri S'truman (130)
Alarith Stonemage
- Artefact: Ebony Stone
- Lore of the High Peaks: Entomb
20 x Vanari Auralan Wardens (240)
- Lore of Hysh: Speed of Hysh
20 x Vanari Auralan Wardens (240)
- Lore of Hysh: Speed of Hysh
10 x Vanari Auralan Sentinels (140)
- Lore of Hysh: Protection of Hysh
10 x Vanari Auralan Sentinels (140)
- Lore of Hysh: Protection of Hysh
Alarith Spirit of the Mountain (340)
Auralan Legion (120)
 

Note there are bugs in the Warscroll Builder app - it incorrectly makes 1 Sentinel and 1 Dawnrider unit Battleline per Warden unit, and it also doesn't include the Iliatha artefact

[Chumphammer]

6 minutes ago, ObsidianCrane said:

When you stop trying to build a serious list for Iliatha....

Avalenor, the Stoneheart King (360)
- General
L'aura Pa'lmer (140)
Scinari Cathallar
- Artefact: Silver Wand
- Lore of Hysh: Ethereal Blessing
D'ale Kuuper (130)
Alarith Stonemage
- Artefact: Simulcra Amulet
- Lore of the High Peaks: Voice of the Mountain
Harri S'truman (130)
Alarith Stonemage
- Artefact: Ebony Stone
- Lore of the High Peaks: Entomb
20 x Vanari Auralan Wardens (240)
- Lore of Hysh: Speed of Hysh
20 x Vanari Auralan Wardens (240)
- Lore of Hysh: Speed of Hysh
10 x Vanari Auralan Sentinels (140)
- Lore of Hysh: Protection of Hysh
10 x Vanari Auralan Sentinels (140)
- Lore of Hysh: Protection of Hysh
Alarith Spirit of the Mountain (340)
Auralan Legion (120)
 

Note there are bugs in the Warscroll Builder app - it incorrectly makes 1 Sentinel and 1 Dawnrider unit Battleline per Warden unit, and it also doesn't include the Iliatha artefact

Looks pretty solid. Only thing I would try and squeeze in would be 5 or 10 dawnriders. I think they dd a lot of value to the list as a support unit or late game obj cap unit