Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[madmac]

13 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

Those who love this range need to accept that it will be marmite to others. Those who are disappointed will need to accept this wasnt the range they wanted and collect something else.
 

I personally think a lot of the design discussion is because a lot of people are on the fence about the army still. I criticize the models plenty, but I'm still leaning towards buying in, maybe. I want to see the whole range, and if they are setting up a second wave I probably don't want to worry about filling out 2000 points with the first wave. Most of the critics are in a similar boat, from what I can tell.

With Bonereapers it was different, because while I don't care for the models, it was never an army I was going to buy into anyway so my participation in any discussions about them were minimal. We're not at that point yet for most Lumineth watchers, I don't think.

[Nactigal]

20 minutes ago, ArchaicArc said:

Has anybody thought out a colour scheme for themselves? I’ve been thinking of using the Lord of the rings high elf scheme, or something at least a little inspired by it!

I liked the opalescent idea a few pages back. I have some FW shimmering blue ink that looks opalescent. I've been wanting to try it out.

[Acid_Nine]

24 minutes ago, ArchaicArc said:

Has anybody thought out a colour scheme for themselves? I’ve been thinking of using the Lord of the rings high elf scheme, or something at least a little inspired by it!

I’m thinking of using this color shift paint ( https://turbodork.com/products/lunar-eclipse-colorshift-acrylic-paint ) to paint the armor as a funky metallic, or maybe the weapons something similar. I don’t really know yet, but I like the idea of using color shift paints a lot for these guys.

 

other than that I have to think of some good cloth colors for them, but i’m Coming up with blanks unfortunately.

[NorthernNurgling]

20 minutes ago, ArchaicArc said:

Has anybody thought out a colour scheme for themselves? I’ve been thinking of using the Lord of the rings high elf scheme, or something at least a little inspired by it!

I'm looking at using a similar palette to this beautiful scheme that I stole from a great hobbyist called Monstroys on Tumblr.

GW White areas = the blue

GW blue areas = the red

Trim etc = the cold gold.

I'll do the robes a cream colour but I might try some free-hand patterns on there since there's a lot of space there.Then I'm going to use all the little gemstones for spots of black and yellow. Should be very striking, and pushes me towards river or Sky when they eventually show up.

Ambitious possibly, but I love the painting side of the hobby as opposed to the gaming side where I lose every game I show up to.

 

Also, on the shutting down of criticism, I think any art form or even any product has its fans and its critics. I think the big problem the Lumineth have is that they were tackling a much-loved Warhammer faction, and they teed it up as "pointy aelves" to make everyone think "Ooo, High Elves 2.0!" then they took a brave decision to give them the AOS treatment. As a result, a lot of people are reacting like me, with "Oh... I wasn't expecting that" which is why we're seeing such strong reactions.

Personally, I was confused when I saw Teclis at first, but I now can't wait to paint Celennar, she reminds me of the sphinx from the Neverending Story... It might be fun to snip Teclis free of Celennar and house him in the swirly goodness that the Celestant Prime has around him - I mean, it's got hammers in it and that's so aelven...

[JackStreicher]

3 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

That goes both ways though. Some people are denigrating models and concepts just because they don’t fit with their personal tastes. And it often smacks of trying to lessen the fun of people who do like those. Especially if it’s done in the forum which is meant for the fans of that faction. 

I think what Thiagoma did in the “let’s fix the helmets” threat is great. Really constructive, and they also came up with some good looking alternatives. But still people somehow feel the need to over and over tell everyone here in this threat how ******, stupid and ridiculous most of the models are. And then wonder when sometimes people get mad about that. 

Why? 
 

Why? 
In my case it is because I want to like the models so I write down what bothers me about them as well as some more objective feedback based on my field of study. I usually hope then that someone comes up with a good explanation or makes me rethink my opinion based on something I might have overlooked. Also It vents frustration rather efficiently.

 

yet usually I receive either answers of people who didn‘t read what I wrote or took it out of context or of people who are angry or feel insulted that I don‘t like the models. Some might be in the same boat as me yet they dislike what I say since it is not riding along the hype train(?). Yet my goal is not to make others feel different about the release but for others to make me like the army, otherwise I would not bother writing into the faction thread. 
it‘s frustrating to write anything even remotely critical on these forums.

[Sttufe]

1 hour ago, ArchaicArc said:

Has anybody thought out a colour scheme for themselves? I’ve been thinking of using the Lord of the rings high elf scheme, or something at least a little inspired by it!

I think if I get this army, probably not (though not because of the models mind you),  I would go with a sandy beige on their robes while the trim would be maybe a really faded and dirty gold, with their aether quartz bits faded and dirty white, barely hanging on, tying them in with the rest of my Shyish nomad armies.

[Aloth_Corfiser]

1 hour ago, ArchaicArc said:

Has anybody thought out a colour scheme for themselves? I’ve been thinking of using the Lord of the rings high elf scheme, or something at least a little inspired by it!

Oh boy. Colour Schemes ^^
I was very intrigued by the Orange and Red Robe snippet GW posted in the Lowdown about Architecture. Honestly it depends largely on the Element or Subfaction which will appeal the most to me. However I always liked the classic "Avelorn" look of the old High Elves with Deep Reds and Bright Greens - can't go wrong with that.
A Mixture of gold armour, and grey clothing with turquoise accents might be really fitting.
As a fan of the colour Blue I might lean more into the Original GW Scheme because I like the Blue Feathers on the Wardens and the White armour.

[Aloth_Corfiser]

25 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Why? 
In my case it is because I want to like the models so I write down what bothers me about them as well as some more objective feedback based on my field of study. I usually hope then that someone comes up with a good explanation or makes me rethink my opinion based on something I might have overlooked. Also It vents frustration rather efficiently.

 

yet usually I receive either answers of people who didn‘t read what I wrote or took it out of context or of people who are angry or feel insulted that I don‘t like the models. Some might be in the same boat as me yet they dislike what I say since it is not riding along the hype train(?). Yet my goal is not to make others feel different about the release but for others to make me like the army, otherwise I would not bother writing into the faction thread. 
it‘s frustrating to write anything even remotely critical on these forums.

(Sorry for the double post)
Thanks for explaining your reasoning, because sometimes your posts were along the lines of (forgive the paraphrasing it is not meant to be insulting)
"this is bad design, I know this because of my field of study, but I dont care to explain the Theory, cause this would be way to complicated".
 So your statements can come across as harsh and people might fail to see your point of view. I usually tend to ignore posts such as these - So I am all the more happy when poeple explain their motivation.  So in the end, I would be interested if you could explain some cornerstones of your field of study in regards to the Lumineth Models (Graphic Design?  Art History? etc.) because the more detailed a post is the more misunderstandings are prevented.
Poeple who are not interested can skip it - people who are interested are enlightened.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Aloth_Corfiser
formating

[Lucur]

I'll go with an ochre/cream and dark green for the cloth and either silver or light brass for the metal as a first attempt. Then again purple might suit them super well... can i revoke my first answer? ^^

[JackStreicher]

37 minutes ago, Aloth_Corfiser said:

(Sorry for the double post)
Thanks for explaining your reasoning, because sometimes your posts were along the lines of (forgive the paraphrasing it is not meant to be insulting)
"this is bad design, I know this because of my field of study, but I dont care to explain the Theory, cause this would be way to complicated".
 So your statements can come across as harsh and people might fail to see your point of view. I usually tend to ignore posts such as these - So I am all the more happy when poeple explain their motivation.  So in the end, I would be interested if you could explain some cornerstones of your field of study in regards to the Lumineth Models (Graphic Design?  Art History? etc.) because the more detailed a post is the more misunderstandings are prevented.
Poeple who are not interested can skip it - people who are interested are enlightened.

It‘s Game Development (Informatics), Game Design, AR and VR Applications, Character Design and Modeling which has its basics in (character) design theory (silhouette, gaze guiding, visual cues, some have overlaps with AR and VR) and 3D Generalism. =}

thx for the interest

Edited April 7, 2020 by JackStreicher

[Nighthaunt Noob]

I know @JackStreicher has gotten flack before for the use of the word "objective" but I have to agree with his perspective on this. There is evidenced based research that supports the notion that, in aggregate, the typical person finds something more visually pleasing than others, even subconsciously. It makes sense to tap into these "truths" when designing. For example, many people find the OBR heads visually jarring because of the noses and jaws. This departure from what our brain expects to see when looking at a skull is going to cause displeasure in your typical person processing this image.

That doesn't mean some people can't like certain things like OBR heads. However, these things may not be good design choices because of their likely impact on the typical viewer which has deep rooted concepts of beauty/good design.

[FlatTooth]

55 minutes ago, Nighthaunt Noob said:

I know @JackStreicher has gotten flack before for the use of the word "objective" but I have to agree with his perspective on this. There is evidenced based research that supports the notion that, in aggregate, the typical person finds something more visually pleasing than others, even subconsciously. It makes sense to tap into these "truths" when designing. For example, many people find the OBR heads visually jarring because of the noses and jaws. This departure from what our brain expects to see when looking at a skull is going to cause displeasure in your typical person processing this image.

That doesn't mean some people can't like certain things like OBR heads. However, these things may not be good design choices because of their likely impact on the typical viewer which has deep rooted concepts of beauty/good design.

Sure. The problem is when you're dealing with international markets the "typical person" changes *a lot.* You have to hit touchstones and you need to avoid pitfalls. The danger as a viewer is to decide that you are the "typical viewer" and that your opinion is objectively the correct opinion. If folks aren't willing to actually critique (not criticize but critique) then I'm not sure why they come here (that's not true, they come here because they are very upset about a faction of models they wanted to like but now do not like the direction of). 

I would argue that these models hit the touchstones of what en elf is extremely well. They are haughty, they have flowing robes and elegant features/poses. They are mostly using delicate and precise weapons and are portrayed as well-ordered and noble. They have a single unit that departs from *some* of these themes. Let's take a look at that. They are still well-ordered and noble in long, flowing robes. They have a facial expression of disdain because they are fighting "lesser foes." These elves are meant to be connected to the earth so they need a weapon that is associated with the design touchstones of earth. That's a hammer in most situations. Elves are also associated with fine craftsmen. That's also a hammer. The designers have also chosen to attach an animal to the elite units. Hopefully they carry that through to other units or it will really make no sense. You never really want to do something just once in your design. Bulls make a lot of sense for the element earth. Stalwart and strong. The horns also help give these models and extremely memorable silhouette. Their design says "we are not easily moved." The skirt lending a wide base and the strong use of horizontal line drives that home. Bulls and hammers seem like a big departure for elves but I believe they still did a great job pulling them in with the other elements (graceful, elegant, noble).

In regards to Teclis- I don't actually think he's as stiff as the photo would seem. Until I see him in person I will have a hard time telling for sure. I think that model is probably incredibly difficult to photograph. I also don't think that the 'Eavy Metal style is doing him any favors. His robes and face are really calling for a softer gradient of colors (much like the art for him).

I think they should really be showing more of the Lumineth (if there is more to be shown). Right now, I think folks who want classic elves are frustrated that there are strong departures from what they expect. If GW has more to show it'd be smart to show it rather than drip-feed it over the course of the next few weeks. I realize the pandemic has messed up their release schedule but I'd hate to see them shoot themselves in the foot by generating the level of resentment these models have seemed to create. Please don't believe I'm a GW fanboy. I think they make more wrong decisions in a week than most other game companies get even a chance to in a year haha.

Also the behavior of coming here to vent frustration is strange to me. I don't like Nurgle models. They don't appeal to me. I also don't go into Nurgle threads to let everyone know that I don't like them. I'm not sure what that adds to the conversation because it isn't valuable feedback. I have feedback that I think could be helpful but, well, I don't think that's why people are going onto the Nurgle thread. I don't want to pee in anyone's cheerios just because I think I think X, Y, or Z. 

 

Source: I'm a working graphic designer and illustrator and I teach those subjects as well.

 

[Acid_Nine]

Anyone else wonder if we're getting endless spells or a terrain piece?

[Mcthew]

1 hour ago, FlatTooth said:

Sure. The problem is when you're dealing with international markets the "typical person" changes *a lot.* You have to hit touchstones and you need to avoid pitfalls. The danger as a viewer is to decide that you are the "typical viewer" and that your opinion is objectively the correct opinion. If folks aren't willing to actually critique (not criticize but critique) then I'm not sure why they come here (that's not true, they come here because they are very upset about a faction of models they wanted to like but now do not like the direction of). 

I would argue that these models hit the touchstones of what en elf is extremely well. They are haughty, they have flowing robes and elegant features/poses. They are mostly using delicate and precise weapons and are portrayed as well-ordered and noble. They have a single unit that departs from *some* of these themes. Let's take a look at that. They are still well-ordered and noble in long, flowing robes. They have a facial expression of disdain because they are fighting "lesser foes." These elves are meant to be connected to the earth so they need a weapon that is associated with the design touchstones of earth. That's a hammer in most situations. Elves are also associated with fine craftsmen. That's also a hammer. The designers have also chosen to attach an animal to the elite units. Hopefully they carry that through to other units or it will really make no sense. You never really want to do something just once in your design. Bulls make a lot of sense for the element earth. Stalwart and strong. The horns also help give these models and extremely memorable silhouette. Their design says "we are not easily moved." The skirt lending a wide base and the strong use of horizontal line drives that home. Bulls and hammers seem like a big departure for elves but I believe they still did a great job pulling them in with the other elements (graceful, elegant, noble).

In regards to Teclis- I don't actually think he's as stiff as the photo would seem. Until I see him in person I will have a hard time telling for sure. I think that model is probably incredibly difficult to photograph. I also don't think that the 'Eavy Metal style is doing him any favors. His robes and face are really calling for a softer gradient of colors (much like the art for him).

I think they should really be showing more of the Lumineth (if there is more to be shown). Right now, I think folks who want classic elves are frustrated that there are strong departures from what they expect. If GW has more to show it'd be smart to show it rather than drip-feed it over the course of the next few weeks. I realize the pandemic has messed up their release schedule but I'd hate to see them shoot themselves in the foot by generating the level of resentment these models have seemed to create. Please don't believe I'm a GW fanboy. I think they make more wrong decisions in a week than most other game companies get even a chance to in a year haha.

Also the behavior of coming here to vent frustration is strange to me. I don't like Nurgle models. They don't appeal to me. I also don't go into Nurgle threads to let everyone know that I don't like them. I'm not sure what that adds to the conversation because it isn't valuable feedback. I have feedback that I think could be helpful but, well, I don't think that's why people are going onto the Nurgle thread. I don't want to pee in anyone's cheerios just because I think I think X, Y, or Z. 

 

Source: I'm a working graphic designer and illustrator and I teach those subjects as well.

 

I've voted to like both this post and the previous even though they are - slightly - at odds. Mainly because they are both impassioned and informed, and that leads to healthy debate. 

Though I will say that generally, people are not raiding other sub forums to spread disdain about factions. It doesn't serve anyone to start flame wars over faction choice. More likely people are offering opinions on design not out of devilment but as a comment on their hobby. Many players here jump aboard other factions so comment on design or rules is kinda valid. It's ok not to like certain factions. Nurgle was the last Chaos faction I collected as I wasnt a fan of all the sculpts (horticulous slimux is one model I do not personally like if I'm honest, but hey that's just me), but there are others who love the plague aesthetic which is fine with me.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Mcthew

[JackStreicher]

26 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

Anyone else wonder if we're getting endless spells or a terrain piece?

I still hope for floating pillars! =}

[SanguinaryAxiom]

5 hours ago, ArchaicArc said:

Has anybody thought out a colour scheme for themselves? I’ve been thinking of using the Lord of the rings high elf scheme, or something at least a little inspired by it!

Something pearlescent to represent light refracting from their armor for the plate. Some green/blue metallic for the scales. Light blue for the cloth. I am stumped on the robes though. White, maybe?

On another note. I think this has probably been mentioned before, but...

What we have seen thus far is basic infantry, cavalry, archers and the Light of Eltharion. These are the generic, non-elemental models.

Then come the stone mage, hammerers and the battle bovines. Mountain.

Do you think that the rest of the elements will follow the same pattern? That being one Special unit (hammerers), one hero (mage) and one big/special model (battle cows)?

So you fill your battleline troops with the generics, and then spice it up with an elemental unit or two.

This way, we can still see one more elemental aspect released (that's 3 warscrolls, not unreasonable), maybe more.

Teclis is an exception, as he has mastered (and therefore encompases) all the elements. He will be the only God tier release (Tyrion will just steal some of his spotlight).

I like the elegance of it. This way we could be getting a min. of 3 releases and a max. of 9.

Just wanted to chip in on the speculation.

[Damosane]

10 hours ago, Athrawes said:

Saying 'hopefully this is constructive', and then describing the model as a constipated jack-in-the-box makes you part of the problem.

Seriously, every few days, the same people post similar diatribes about miniatures that have been unveiled for weeks/months. 

If you don't enjoy the design choices, or aesthetics of the range, that is perfectly fine, but why people see the need to spread their bile and whining here and rehash the same points again, and again, and again is beyond me. I come to TGA for the positivity of it's community, but the last few weeks have been incredibly disappointing.  

You all can do better.

 

We have every right to criticise something we have invested time into and are considering investing money into. 

[Damosane]

I think my only actual thing i dislike so far is Cellenar, I would much rather have had Teclis floating on some magic sort of like the Celestant Prime, hell i would even settle for him with a flight stand up his ass. I'm sure it isn't something I can't solve with a bit of sneaky converting...even him floating in front of Cellenar instead of above and to the side would be much more pleasing.

[Icarion]

10 minutes ago, Damosane said:

We have every right to criticise something we have invested time into and are considering investing money into. 

Of course.

But there is a difference between people who state their case or opinion, critique something and then move on, and people who repeat the same point over and over, to try and shutdown people who disagree with them. The first person wants to make the hobby better, the second type of person just wants to be right.

 

[Thiagoma]

1 hour ago, Damosane said:

I think my only actual thing i dislike so far is Cellenar, I would much rather have had Teclis floating on some magic sort of like the Celestant Prime, hell i would even settle for him with a flight stand up his ass. I'm sure it isn't something I can't solve with a bit of sneaky converting...even him floating in front of Cellenar instead of above and to the side would be much more pleasing.

I am playing around the idea of placing Teclis in front of Celenar . Would make the model easier to transport.

Gota find out how the pieces connect between then to see if my greenstuff skills are up to the challenge.

[LuminethMage]

4 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

Anyone else wonder if we're getting endless spells or a terrain piece?

I think we'll get both a terrain piece and endless spells. If you look at the starter box, it looks like they are confident that they can sell Lumineth-themed things.

In terms of terrain, I guess we'll some kind of pillar or tower-like building because this has featured so much in their descriptions. Otherwise something like a Enlightenment Machine could be cool. 

After all the talk about how powerful their magic is, I hope we get endless spells for them. In one of the older army books, High Magic included a spell which let you move a terrain piece on top of the enemy (it was restricted to hills if I remember correctly), that would be fitting : ). On a more serious note, as they can manipulate gravity, you could have some interesting things with those (either lift up units, or ground flyers etc.). As they have  all the elements, plus light and aetherquartz-based optics. so many options what they could do. 

[Chikout]

The complaints about Teclis are interesting. The hammer pants thing, I can see, and the coif around his neck is something also worn by nuns. The constipated thing is something I just don't get though. He looks arrogant.

As for the pose part of the problem is the 3d nature of a physical model. He is actually quite a way in front of Celenar with his cloak and topknot streaming out behind him.

He is also leaning forward slightly, with his chest thrust out. None of this comes across in the font on photo. The physical model with Teclis in the foreground and Celenar behind, should have a better balance than the photo suggests. 

I will definitely try to see the model in person before I decide whether to order him or not. 

Still looking forward to seeing Tyrion. I was just checking the lowdown article and he is namechecked seven times across four of the articles. He is explicitly said to be a Lumineth god. 

If I was planning a reveal of the Lumineth featuring two gods I would absolutely reveal one at the beginning and the other last, so here's hoping!

Edited April 8, 2020 by Chikout

[Skeesh]

Anyone have any idea what this thing might be? It might just be the art but it looks so strange to be one of the sentinels right? The way it’s drawn it looks like centaur for some reason, most likely not because why would it be, but it kind of looks like that block thing I’ve drawn is attached to its stick? 

[Skeesh]

Just now, Skeesh said:

Anyone have any idea what this thing might be? It might just be the art but it looks so strange to be one of the sentinels right? The way it’s drawn it looks like centaur for some reason, most likely not because why would it be, but it kind of looks like that block thing I’ve drawn is attached to its stick? 

That could just be shadow actually now that I’m looking at it again hahaha

[Sttufe]

1 hour ago, LuminethMage said:

I think we'll get both a terrain piece and endless spells. If you look at the starter box, it looks like they are confident that they can sell Lumineth-themed things.

In terms of terrain, I guess we'll some kind of pillar or tower-like building because this has featured so much in their descriptions. Otherwise something like a Enlightenment Machine could be cool. 

After all the talk about how powerful their magic is, I hope we get endless spells for them. In one of the older army books, High Magic included a spell which let you move a terrain piece on top of the enemy (it was restricted to hills if I remember correctly), that would be fitting : ). On a more serious note, as they can manipulate gravity, you could have some interesting things with those (either lift up units, or ground flyers etc.). As they have  all the elements, plus light and aetherquartz-based optics. so many options what they could do. 

And on top of that I would expect them to have an anti-anti-magic thing, as the current meta is (as far as I can ascertain) focused on armies who can just nope magic. Therefore with the powercreep natural to this game they would have something to counter the counter that armies like Khorne and Tzeentch have.