Kasper Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 10 hours ago, Nezzhil said: One point: Ben, the designer, said in Twitter that they can cast endless with the artefact. It is an errata. Ben can say whatever he wants to on twitter, facebook, down at the local diner place or anywhere else - This does not make it any more legit. You need to look at the rules/FAQ, that is the only thing which is official and that we can go by. Will it be FAQ'd? Very likely, but until then it is a pretty hard no. I listened/watched the HWG show and thought the critique was fair - It is from a purely competitive point of view and I think it is important they talk about all the cons. Does it make SoB a bad hobby army to have a lot of fun with? Hell no, but if you expect to go 5-0 with this army and beat tournaments, I think you are in for a rude awakening. For me it will be a perfect army to have fun games with people where as I will play something like Seraphon for more "competitive" games. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superking Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 What's the hwg show?, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 12 minutes ago, Superking said: What's the hwg show?, The Honest Wargamer, he does vids on various games, mainly AoS and 40k, and Monday night is always the AoS show. they did a review of the battletome https://www.twitch.tv/videos/768422429 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Scurvydog said: It does puzzle me that they did not add much more customization though Yeah, this is a proper boggle. No battalions, very lazy artefacts and command traits with copy and paste across the tribes, and then no mixing of the big gargants, so running 1 of each type is basically not possible. With so few options, you'd think that they'd open it up as a free for all with regards to how you run the army. No named gargants either. Another low model availability army would be FEC, there's like 6 models, but they can make a combination of 13 models. they get battalions and loads of options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBrodd Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Kraken-Eater Painting Guide. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schwabbele Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Kasper said: but until then it is a pretty hard no. I only know the artifact from community page, is it worded different in the tome? it says same manner as wizard , what is missing that it makes endless spells illegal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, schwabbele said: I only know the artifact from community page, is it worded different in the tome? it says same manner as wizard , what is missing that it makes endless spells illegal? In the rules/book for Malign Sorcery it specifices that Wizards (keyword) can cast endless spells if you pay the points for the model. The artefact doesnt mention anything about the Gargant gaining this keyword, only that it casts "in the same manner" as a Wizard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, schwabbele said: what is missing that it makes endless spells illegal It doesn't grant the user the WIZARD keyword. So to cast an any endless spell, you need to be a wizard, often with faction spells it will be something like NIGHTHAUNT WIZARD. To dispel endless spells, at the start of the hero phase, a WIZARD may attempt to dispel an endless spell. If they attempt to do this, then later in the hero phase they have to reduce the amount of casting opportunities by one. So in summary, an ability that is worded 'in the same manner as a wizard' is different from 'makes the bearer a wizard', as this artefact only let's you cast or unbind in the same manner as a wizard, but lacking the vital keyword locks you out of using/dispelling endless spells. Luckily an archregant is a double caster and is 240pts and can be taken as an ally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schwabbele Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 K i see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0deb1ue Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said: Yeah, this is a proper boggle. No battalions, very lazy artefacts and command traits with copy and paste across the tribes, and then no mixing of the big gargants, so running 1 of each type is basically not possible. With so few options, you'd think that they'd open it up as a free for all with regards to how you run the army. No named gargants either. Another low model availability army would be FEC, there's like 6 models, but they can make a combination of 13 models. they get battalions and loads of options. Yeah I think this is the crux of it for me for the entire release. Utterly minimal effort. 1) The rules are few in number, mostly boring mathshammer and not really competitive (if thats your jam). Little variation in playstyle is obvious and little meaningful customisation is available. 2) The aleguzzler is the same model as before and the mega gargant kit was just a way for GW to reduce the design effort they had to put in. They all literally have the same legs. It all just feels so lazy. So yeah if you are going to buy a single kit then you can maybe magnetise, but otherwise multiples all look very similar and you have to pay for half a kit of unused pieces.... 3) The customers reward for this minimal effort is premium prices. Everyone keeps saying its the same cost as a 2000 point army to buy but you get so little for your money... The whole release is mind boggling. rant over. just for comparison: Glottkin £70, Gargant £120 Edited October 13, 2020 by C0deb1ue 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattrulesok Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 I've started work on my mantic giant, way happier with how he looks now and all for £25. (please ignore mess I'm in the process of moving) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamcbutton Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 17 minutes ago, Mattrulesok said: I've started work on my mantic giant, way happier with how he looks now and all for £25. (please ignore mess I'm in the process of moving) Looks great, what are you running him as? I have one on the way as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezzhil Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 What do you think about the army if the points were: - Mega-Gargant 400 pts - Mancrusher 140/400 pts I think that the principal problem after two games is a very low number of wounds for the survivability of the models in most of the games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0deb1ue Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Just now, Nezzhil said: What do you think about the army if the points were: - Mega-Gargant 400 pts - Mancrusher 140/400 pts I think that the principal problem after two games is a very low number of wounds for the survivability of the models in most of the games. I feel like the issue is how bad the rules are.... if the rules were better, you wouldn't care about the cost. Changing points just means you have to buy even more expensive models who still have bad rules. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Giant Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 Just now, Nezzhil said: What do you think about the army if the points were: - Mega-Gargant 400 pts - Mancrusher 140/400 pts I think that the principal problem after two games is a very low number of wounds for the survivability of the models in most of the games. Such a small change that would make a HUGE impact. Giving you an extra unit of Mancrushers or an entire extra Mega. I've yet to play them, but the idea of doing this sounds like it could be quite good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezzhil Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, C0deb1ue said: I feel like the issue is how bad the rules are.... if the rules were better, you wouldn't care about the cost. Changing points just means you have to buy even more expensive models who still have bad rules. I'm a hard Gloomspite player, I know what is to fight with a weak army and I can say it with all the words: "SoB is the weakest Destruction battletome ever made." I love the models, I bought a complete army but the rules are the perfect description of an army for parade and not so much more. You don't have enough content to try new strategies or combinations. With all my respects to designers, the book seems the first take a look in the development of a product. Edited October 13, 2020 by Nezzhil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattrulesok Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 46 minutes ago, Adamcbutton said: Looks great, what are you running him as? I have one on the way as well! I'll probably just proxy him for all of them, he's only going to be an ally, I may change his weapon or change up bits iin the future to align more with a specific gargant if I buy another and start building a SOB army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutton Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 18 minutes ago, C0deb1ue said: Changing points just means you have to buy even more expensive models who still have bad rules. This should be the tagline for GW. Their bull-headed attitude toward never changing warscrolls after a book has been printed really brings the game down. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganigumo Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, Nezzhil said: What do you think about the army if the points were: - Mega-Gargant 400 pts - Mancrusher 140/400 pts I think that the principal problem after two games is a very low number of wounds for the survivability of the models in most of the games. What probably needs to happen for the army is for mancrushers to lose the horde discount, and just be 160 points, units of behemoths is a cool concept but you really need bodies I think. Dropping them down to 5 400 point slots, and opening up some potential allies would go a long way. I'm thinking maybe just allowing "Grot" keyword, which would allow some moonclan stuff and gnoblars. The army mostly suffers from the same issues as monsters in general though. Big bases are hard to maneuver, and they don't have the raw speed to make up for it (I have experience playing arachnaroks...), plus incredibly low model count and their damage is lower than you would expect for such expensive models. If I were to attempt to fix the army without changing warscrolls I would do this: Every Mega can take an artifact, for free Megas can just walk into combat, they don't need to charge Megas can retreat with no penalties, they just walk out of combat Increased Pile in distance for Megas Mega Gargants can end their normal move on top of models with 4(3?) or less wounds if they do so all models in that unit may make a 5"(4"?) move, any models under the base after the move are slain Mancrushers 160/480 unit size 1-4 Rules 5 and 6 would possibly make the army competitive to some extent, and 6 would definitely be a HUGE buff to stomper mobs, since you get extra gargants for free basically. 5 would need to play around with the restrictions, 130mm is 5.11 inches, so a 5" move would guarantee a few casualties in a vacuum, but could be devastating in a tight spot, since the models might not be able to move out of the way. I've already bought my army, and am gonna paint/play them regardless. I'll be happy as long as they don't get smashed in casual games, but it would be nice if they had a few tricks for competitive play. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotian Giant Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ganigumo said: What probably needs to happen for the army is for mancrushers to lose the horde discount, and just be 160 points, units of behemoths is a cool concept but you really need bodies I think. Dropping them down to 5 400 point slots, and opening up some potential allies would go a long way. I'm thinking maybe just allowing "Grot" keyword, which would allow some moonclan stuff and gnoblars. The army mostly suffers from the same issues as monsters in general though. Big bases are hard to maneuver, and they don't have the raw speed to make up for it (I have experience playing arachnaroks...), plus incredibly low model count and their damage is lower than you would expect for such expensive models. If I were to attempt to fix the army without changing warscrolls I would do this: Every Mega can take an artifact, for free Megas can just walk into combat, they don't need to charge Megas can retreat with no penalties, they just walk out of combat Increased Pile in distance for Megas Mega Gargants can end their normal move on top of models with 4(3?) or less wounds if they do so all models in that unit may make a 5"(4"?) move, any models under the base after the move are slain Mancrushers 160/480 unit size 1-4 Rules 5 and 6 would possibly make the army competitive to some extent, and 6 would definitely be a HUGE buff to stomper mobs, since you get extra gargants for free basically. 5 would need to play around with the restrictions, 130mm is 5.11 inches, so a 5" move would guarantee a few casualties in a vacuum, but could be devastating in a tight spot, since the models might not be able to move out of the way. I've already bought my army, and am gonna paint/play them regardless. I'll be happy as long as they don't get smashed in casual games, but it would be nice if they had a few tricks for competitive play. 1. I agree with this. They are so limited with them as it is. 2-4. This should have honostly been something they should have had to begin with. 6" pile-in and no penalty for leaving. These guys are absolute units, a single step is enough for them to get into or out of combat. Besides, if the Bonegrinder can have 6", these guys can aswell. 5. I think this would work better overall if they killed any models that were left within 3" of them. 6. My only issue, doing this means that you have 0 reason to ever use a 3 man unit. As both 3 man and 4 man units cost the same amount. We seen how this worked with Heart Guard(?) in Fyre Slayers. I'd rather see the same points kept but give them something like +1 to hit on their clubs if they are in a full unit. A final bit I'd like to see added would be rules like the Ogor Tyrant Big Names. Let all of them have one of these buffs and maybe only the Megas of your tribes take artifacts each. Either way these guys need some help. 100% will be playing with them though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganigumo Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 @Scotian Giant I realize that 160/480 1/4 really favors units of 4, but this army is DESPERATE for more units to be able to cover more of the board, and if you drop it to 160 you would rarely see units of gargants. This serves as a buff and makes for interesting decisions in listbuilding, do you take the bonus value of a fourth gargant? or do you take the separate units to force opponents to split fire and get more board control. Personally in lieu of a warscroll updates I think the same should be done for dankhold troggoths but this isn't the Gitz discussion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dankboss Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 I reckon the Mega Gargants will see more use as a merc, as they're decent individually. As an army, I'm not convinced, but solo they can bring something to the table for other armies. For example, providing consistent rend -2 in StoD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 37 minutes ago, Dankboss said: I reckon the Mega Gargants will see more use as a merc, as they're decent individually. As an army, I'm not convinced, but solo they can bring something to the table for other armies. For example, providing consistent rend -2 in StoD. I've kind of the opposing feeling, cause as mercs they are such a big investment (a quarter of your army AND a CP) for one body that it seems hard to see which army could not find something better to do with these points, either in its own battletone or among the allies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dankboss Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Marcvs said: I've kind of the opposing feeling, cause as mercs they are such a big investment (a quarter of your army AND a CP) for one body that it seems hard to see which army could not find something better to do with these points, either in its own battletone or among the allies It is, but it's also more efficient as a Hero due to their 35 wounds than other options. I reckon they'll be decent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezzhil Posted October 13, 2020 Share Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Dankboss said: It is, but it's also more efficient as a Hero due to their 35 wounds than other options. I reckon they'll be decent. They aren't efficient being merc, the cost a lot of points and you lose too much bodies, and the Gargants don't do enough damage to break the game in your favour. Edited October 13, 2020 by Nezzhil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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