Chances of a new battletome

[Celestantpants]

So, what are the chances we are going to get a new battletome?  Also, when do you think it might be?  Have their been any leaks, rumblings, or rumors that point to one coming out, or is it just blind speculation at this point?  Any indication that GW cares about how weak stormcast are at the moment?

[Skreech Verminking]

For which army are we talking about?

I mean that the very much hatet storm-things (Just talking skaveny, they really hate those new things) might get a battletome this year as well, since there was literally not even a single year, were they haven’t gotten something.

I also could see that the daughter, fis-things and maggotkin may get a battletome, to update their buff range to wholly within and maybe some buffs or debuffs or warscrolls changes are also possible

[Celestantpants]

Sorry, I mean stormcasts.

[OIF4IDVET]

I'm pretty doubtful on it, I "Wish" for soon and I hope for "Eventually" but honestly I think its all fallen on Def Ears.  That there hasn't even been any sort of acknowledgement by GW to say hey we understand and are working it, kinda cements that in my mind.  I don't know if anyone on here remembers the dark elf book that was heavily changed at launch with kind of an apology by Gav Thorpe not long after it came out, but Even that book was better beforehand than what we have right now. Im blown away that A vocal minority of whiners were able to complain enough that they raise points on stormcast stuff etc when they did and there wasn't an immediate flood of stormcast players rallying to the defense saying that's not needed. I cant understand how every day theres not at least one person commenting on our books state to them.  The facts are they absolutely have to know the books issues, and are choosing to not address it. Points Drops are not a bandaid to fix it because the whole thing needs re worked starting with our warscrolls.  its just a choice not to do it. With seraphon looking less likely to have an announcement today  at the event as well I hope they also aren't left in the dust. 

[Turragor]

Stormcast are ok right now. Not great, not really good. Not the worst faction in the world either*. Hyperbole should be checked into the hyperbole closet by the forum door.

SC will get a new tome. All factions out now (that made it through the purge) will at some point get a new tome.

It may however soon be time for a chamber specific tome (in the style of Extremis Chamber) OR some kinda Space Marine inspired Stormhost specific minitomes.

*IE you don't necessarily need to buy a new army to enjoy competitive games. A good SC player with one of the decent lists that they have experience with should still do 3 or 4 wins at a big tournament

Edited January 4, 2020 by Turragor

[Nizrah]

Stormcast are alright? Are you kidding me? 80% of warscroll are useless. Today my fully buffed 10 evocators (reroll 1 to hit, reroll full wounds) killed only 5 of 10 heartguards... Combo for 780 couldnt kill unit for 240.

Also for 220 i can get 5 evocators thats deal okayish dmg and are made of paper. For 240 he can get 10 heartguard thats hit like train and and are durable as stone.

The only really competive way of playing (raptors) were nerfed. We are in dire need of overhaul...

[schwabbele]

2 hours ago, Turragor said:

Stormcast are ok right now. Not great, not really good.

46% win rate suggests otherwise

1 hour ago, Nizrah said:

Are you kidding me? 80% of warscroll are useless. Today my fully buffed 10 evocators (reroll 1 to hit, reroll full wounds) killed only 5 of 10 heartguards... Combo for 780 couldnt kill unit for 240.

Kinda sounds like your dice weren't in your favor

[Turragor]

2 hours ago, Nizrah said:

Stormcast are alright? Are you kidding me? 80% of warscroll are useless. Today my fully buffed 10 evocators (reroll 1 to hit, reroll full wounds) killed only 5 of 10 heartguards... Combo for 780 couldnt kill unit for 240.

Also for 220 i can get 5 evocators thats deal okayish dmg and are made of paper. For 240 he can get 10 heartguard thats hit like train and and are durable as stone.

The only really competive way of playing (raptors) were nerfed. We are in dire need of overhaul...

Spitballing here but you mean berzerkers? Had you removed the heroes nearby (granting ward saves)? You're not counting their combo points total. They're only hard as stone with a hero in the area.

I guess it could have been some bad luck to be fair. It sucks when that happens. It doesn't measure anything though.

Most people would agree Evocators are a strong unit. On the other hand, you could make a case that they could now come down to 200 again.

34 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

46% win rate suggests otherwise

That's still above a good chunk of factions - but ofc below another chunk.

SC are top in meta representation we've the most results recorded, and are probably as a result, the most statistically accurate (unless you argue we absorb the most beginners to the hobby - starter army syndrome) and we are in the middle everywhere else.

And use my full quote so you see it paints a better picture of reality:

3 hours ago, Turragor said:

Stormcast are ok right now. Not great, not really good. Not bad or the worst faction in the world either.

I might strike out "bad" because depending on how you define it, you could make that case.

Stats drawn on are two most recent HWG stat reports:

https://thehonestwargamer.com/13th-december-stats/

& https://thehonestwargamer.com/2nd-december-stats/

All in all, the main thing I'm saying is that hyperbole is not needed. SC are okay. Vanilla. Smack bang in the centre...  No better, no worse (maybe a hair worse stats taken into account).

They could be improved; brought up to speed with the top tier armies; updated - whatever you want to call it. The stats aren't telling us we're top tier. Mid to low in fact. However, putting it out there that [checks SC posts and threads] "SC are the worst army in the game with no viable lists, you're better playing 1/4 of a Cities army" is just posting without thinking in the hope that GW read and buff the army to the sun.

But pay heed to armies that are buffed to the sun, fly to close and the wax on their wings will melt.

Unless they're Slaanesh - melted wax is just their kind of thing.

Anyway, that was a bit off topic.

SC will get a new battletome or new rules in 2020 - I am 75% sure of it. I'm 100% sure SC players will still be unhappy. That's the nature of the tabletop war game beast! It attracts nerds that want to win via tabletop combat and no amount of fluffy "we're OK" posting from me changes that. I don't even want to change it, I just dislike kneejerk reactions made by anyone not trying new things out in tournaments.

You can't just comb the net for a netlist and find nothing but aetherstrike, buy and paint a hundred local currency of models and then go 2 - 3 or 3 - 2 at your first tournament and put the faction on the shelf... or better yet you CAN do that and move onto Slaanesh, Ossiarch etc (I bought a lil Ossiarch somethinsomethin myself ) but you CAN'T do it whilst saying "SC are the worst omg I can't go on".

Or I mean, you still CAN but I won't take you seriously.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Turragor

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, Nizrah said:

Stormcast are alright? Are you kidding me? 80% of warscroll are useless. Today my fully buffed 10 evocators (reroll 1 to hit, reroll full wounds) killed only 5 of 10 heartguards... Combo for 780 couldnt kill unit for 240.

If you field 80% of the warscrolls you are playing a 3K+ game. Also I can’t believe that’s the average for 10 evocators with those buffs, so ****** luck but it happens. And doesn’t really matter but if they were rolling 4+ for the after Save there should also be a hero in the point comparison (or not hero points on the stormcast side) 

But to the OP’s question. I think it very likely there will be an updated tome. And I think some reworks are needed for internal balance. But honestly there were so many factions that needed the help more it’s only right where they are in the order of things so far. It’s a great army, lots of options but it’s been proven very hard to stretch it to the absolute tournament top. 
so the army being alright or not depends a bit on what alright means to you. 

[schwabbele]

1 hour ago, Turragor said:

All in all, the main thing I'm saying is that hyperbole is not needed. SC are okay. Vanilla. Smack bang in the centre...  No better, no worse (maybe a hair worse stats taken into account).

True that, I am rather calm about that, I stopped worrying long time ago and started to enjoy all the aspects of the hobby - not just playing to win. However what triggers me, are those completely reta*ded changes GW is making. Like Evo  WARSCROLL nerf , half as**ed point decreases  and so on.  Until I see that GW is able/willing to adjust certain "problems" faster I am not spending big on their products anymore - thats why I probably will never play a 2 drake list - never saw one come up on our local "ebay"

[Juicy]

I feel the warrior chamber could have some love but vanguard and sacrosanct are decent enough to go 3-2

[XReN]

I hope we get a new one this year, but I'm afraid that GW won't move a finger to help older models out - instead they will give us new shiniest toys that will be good untill next power-creeped battletome whille at the same time pushing old units into the abyss of complete uselessness. Than we enter times of misery like right now waiting for this cicle to begin anew as our models collect dust. We still have 3 chambers to go before GWs will need a new way to torment SCE players.

Yes, overly dramatic tones were necessary.

Edited January 13, 2020 by XReN

[Nos]

The latest tome had a lot in it relating to the next stage of the SC story, namely the flaws in reforging etc, and those responsible for trying to find a "cure". I suspect the next tome will involve a similar revelation and set of models. Doubt they would just redux like they did with eg Sylvaneth.

[crkhobbit]

Don't forget that SCE look slightly worse than they should when looking at win percentages because there was a bold-faced obvious problem with Slaanesh.  And Petrifex Elite is definitely "over-tuned", too.  When you have two factions nearing 70% win rates, everything else gets artificially pushed down by some amount.  So it's not quite as bad as it looks.

Honestly, the SCE points increases right when Slaanesh came out were unfortunate due to the release of a couple of much strong factions at about the same time.  Pre-Slaanesh/Bonereapers, Evocators were probably a little too cheap at 200 points.  After, they could cost 180 and be fine.  And SCE's Slaanesh match-up especially was/is disgustingly unbalanced.  So if they can bring Slaanesh back under control in the meta, then SCE should fare a bit better on average.

[Vakarian]

That's a great point - SCE (especially Sacrosanct Chamber) were in a good spot until the points increases and new factions were released. There was really no need for the increases on any of the Sacrosanct units (other than maybe the Evocators), and now there's no reason some of them shouldn't even go down a little bit.

But, what SCE really need are updates on the Stormhost abilities, Warrior Chamber warscrolls, and Vanguard Chamber warscrolls. Extremis Chamber (Stardrake especially) could stand to either have another points drop or gain some additional fighting ability for their current points.

Whether GW will actually want to spend a lot of time updating all those warscrolls to be better balanced (especially internally, so there's actual reason to use different units other than liking the models) is another story. The updates in CoS and KO leaves me somewhat hopeful, even if an SCE update is probably still a ways off.

[Joseph Mackay]

Stormcast won’t get a new book until another Chamber is opened

[SonOfIronsunz]

As a player, I definitely understand the frustration of having your army get overshadowed by newer releases and the frustration of knowing/thinking that GW won't get around to an update until they are ready to release new models. 

But to play the devil's advocate, we need to temper some of our wants and expectations with the knowledge that GW is a business that needs to balance keeping players happy and engaged whilst still making profit margins. Updating old warscrolls and allowing players to continue to use the same old models they have already purchased doesn't make GW more money (I also have very little knowledge on the subject, but I don't believe updating models and making new casts for them is very profitable either).

It may not be healthy for the game overall, but powercreep is what generates the most revenue for them (Getting players to buy whole new factions instead of updating a current army with a unit or two.)

I'm not saying I like it, or even agree with it. Looking at it from their perspective though, I can understand it. I also imagine SCE would be far harder to update, balance, and add to given how many more heroes and units the faction already has in comparison to nearly every other faction.

I understand none of this is news to most of us, but I think that sometimes its easy to forget that in order to pay the people that have to work at giving us what we want, GW has to make a certain amount of money. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To be more on topic, SCE gets updates nearly every year, so I would expect they get one this year as well, but probably later this year as opposed to the first half since I haven't been able to find any rumors yet.

Edited January 28, 2020 by SonOfIronsunz

[NauticalSoup]

47 minutes ago, SonOfIronsunz said:

But to play the devil's advocate, we need to temper some of our wants and expectations with the knowledge that GW is a business that needs to balance keeping players happy and engaged whilst still making profit margins. Updating old warscrolls and allowing players to continue to use the same old models they have already purchased doesn't make GW more money (I also have very little knowledge on the subject, but I don't believe updating models and making new casts for them is very profitable either).

It may not be healthy for the game overall, but powercreep is what generates the most revenue for them (Getting players to buy whole new factions instead of updating a current army with a unit or two.)

I gotta jump in here to point out that, despite how often it gets repeated, these points (GW deliberately powercreeping and powercreep selling most miniatures) are patently false.

The first issue is that GW doesn't consistently power creep their releases - it largely has to do with specific outliers creating a new standard meta, and then the only thing that disrupts that meta are new (stronger) rules releases. There are often huge draughts in 40k and Sigmar where one armylist or book reigns supreme and multiple releases come and go without making a meta splash. Stormcasts, Primaris Marines and old Space Marines before them have all gotten the lion's share of new model releases for ages and a substantial portion of these have been either dead-on-arrival or taken a long time to find footing on the tabletop. And this has been going on for decades - far longer than Sigmar has even existed.

Additionally, old models do sell, especially when they are useful on the tabletop - and good rules are a crapshoot that hits old stuff as often as it does new stuff. The Thunderfire Cannon is a textbook example: it's been on consistent backorder for quite a while now because demand for it utterly outstrips production. It's a decently old model but it's become so good that nearly every semi-competitive marine list will use one. In my area, the Thunderfire Cannon is hotter than most Sigmar armies. It's hard to say because so many people are waiting for them on back-order or have been driven to ebay, but if the supply where there I would expect it to have outsold newer, more exciting models in plastic. I've had three people try to buy mine off me.

It's also worth pointing out that the new models that do sell are usually not selling for reasons of powercreep. Primaris Marines and Stormcasts make good citations for this. Primaris have basically never been better than their mini-marine counterparts (or arguably even good) with just a tiny handful of notable exceptions - but they still sell well. They even sold well before several rounds of buffs at least brought them into parity with their smaller cousins. Stormcasts continue to sell to new players especially, despite being a rather unforgiving army to actually play and holding a weak position in the meta.

So my point is: you basically have two almost completely siloed pools of model purchasers that GW is pretty successful at capturing, and the cool model crowd and the meta model crowd are often chasing totally different things. Sometimes you get OBR and the new coolness is also the new goodness, but even looking at that book you can see the strongest lists people are building are defined by poor internal balance and speaks more to GW's rules-writing incompetence than to a deliberate choice to push Codex Petrifex Elite into the meta.

Edit: You want an even better example go read about Changehost performance in the Cancon thread.  

Edited January 28, 2020 by NauticalSoup

[sorokyl]

A release of new stormcast models would possibly bring about a new book, but otherwise you will 95% not get a new book until AoS 3.0, which is probably at least 16 months away at this point.  
With seraphon we are just finishing a battletome cycle. The only books you will see now are for new armies and campaign books. 

[Climb]

On 1/15/2020 at 12:18 PM, Vakarian said:

That's a great point - SCE (especially Sacrosanct Chamber) were in a good spot until the points increases and new factions were released. There was really no need for the increases on any of the Sacrosanct units (other than maybe the Evocators), and now there's no reason some of them shouldn't even go down a little bit.

But, what SCE really need are updates on the Stormhost abilities, Warrior Chamber warscrolls, and Vanguard Chamber warscrolls. Extremis Chamber (Stardrake especially) could stand to either have another points drop or gain some additional fighting ability for their current points.

Whether GW will actually want to spend a lot of time updating all those warscrolls to be better balanced (especially internally, so there's actual reason to use different units other than liking the models) is another story. The updates in CoS and KO leaves me somewhat hopeful, even if an SCE update is probably still a ways off.

Sacrosanct warscrolls feel really good, they just need the point changes reversed.

Warrior and vanguard warscrolls just need complete reworkds, I totally agree.

More than that though, the stormhosts and battalions need to be taken out back and put out of their misery. Battalions have none of the flavor or mechanical synergy they used to have and now are just a artifact/command point/drop tax. Stormhosts are completely overshadowed by Staunch Defender outside of anvilguard and 9-12 longstrike crossbows. 

 

I want to win competitive games, but I want to enjoy my army while trying. The 2.0 battletome sucked all of the fun out of making a stormcast list

[Nubgan]

What people need to realise about the win ratio, yeah its not Flesh Eater Courts, but you have WAY more people polluting that sample, you probably have just as many people playing on bottom tables with 1 win as you do nearer the top with 4 wins. And how many of these lists are going to be optimal?

Yeah I agree that it's not great right now, and like was pointed out above, our units are not points efficient compared to other armies, but it probably accounts for a couple % surely?

[chord]

12 hours ago, Climb said:

Battalions have none of the flavor or mechanical synergy they used to have and now are just a artifact/command point/drop tax.

This right here!  For example HammerStrike force.  W T F!   They should have just called it a new name as it no longer has any meaning as it did in the original one.    

[XcaliburNick]

On 1/29/2020 at 11:56 PM, Nubgan said:

What people need to realise about the win ratio, yeah its not Flesh Eater Courts, but you have WAY more people polluting that sample, you probably have just as many people playing on bottom tables with 1 win as you do nearer the top with 4 wins. And how many of these lists are going to be optimal?

I agree Nubgan. I took a look at LVO and CanCon/Call to Glory stats. Overall Stormcast didn't end up looking great, overshadowed by a lot of others and a win rate of 43.5%.

However, overall "2.2" stats from The Honest Wargamer:

• Their 5+/4 win rate seens reasonable. They have 25 of those, which is better than Cities, Ironjawz, Legions of Nagash, etc... and equivalent to Deepkin
• 5 Current Podium, which is equivalent to Cities and Gloomspite Gitz
• Current Top 10 is 43, which is higher than Deepkin and Daughters of Khaine

I'm aware that stats aren't the be-all-and-end-all and don't tell the full picture sometimes, but this seems to mean to me that when piloted by a good player with the right list, Stormcast can perform at events, but won't "win the whole thing" in the current meta because there are more powerful armies out there.

[Mark Williams]

14 minutes ago, XcaliburNick said:

I agree Nubgan. I took a look at LVO and CanCon/Call to Glory stats. Overall Stormcast didn't end up looking great, overshadowed by a lot of others and a win rate of 43.5%.

However, overall "2.2" stats from The Honest Wargamer:

• Their 5+/4 win rate seens reasonable. They have 25 of those, which is better than Cities, Ironjawz, Legions of Nagash, etc... and equivalent to Deepkin
• 5 Current Podium, which is equivalent to Cities and Gloomspite Gitz
• Current Top 10 is 43, which is higher than Deepkin and Daughters of Khaine

I'm aware that stats aren't the be-all-and-end-all and don't tell the full picture sometimes, but this seems to mean to me that when piloted by a good player with the right list, Stormcast can perform at events, but won't "win the whole thing" in the current meta because there are more powerful armies out there.

There's a handful of lists that are okay-ish. The best one is shootcast. The average stormcast list that isn't one of these lists is dog-******.

So you have the extremes of the army as a whole doing ****** poor, and a handful of very specific lists that are top table contenders. All the armies wash together in the end to get your 43% average.

If I don't use Gavriel, I'm basically a 2/5 army. With Gavriel I can win 3/5 pretty consistently. If I want to go any higher than that I basically have to swap to anvils and longstrikes. Then I can go 4/5.

That's where the army is right now. Options are limited. The average army without the gimmicks is real bad compared to other competitive armies.

[Roark]

I do great with Astral Templars and either Ord + 4 Ballistae or 6 Desolators. That's two more options that I think are definitely legit.

Having said that, it's frustrating that OTT tomes have shifted us way down the tiers, and our tome itself is (IMHO) terrible in terms of internal balance, functionality (eg: most battalions and Hallowed Knights self-owning lol) and therefore list-building.