AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Kurrilino]

On 1/26/2020 at 6:21 PM, Bloodmoon said:

I wouldn't say the book is weak at all. Theres super powerful stuff in here my dude. 

Please enlighten us

[Jaskier]

Mr Slaves to Darkness himself went 5-1 at Cancon with a Slaves to Darkness allegiance Plaguetouched list in Despoilers, and his only loss came to the nastiest Fyreslayers list at the event which took 3rd place. This is all my based off my recollection from chatting to him so I apologize if I get anything wrong, but he's incredibly pleased with the book and definitely proved how strong they can be. Plenty of others were also impressed with the book in general and believe it's being under-estimated because it requires a lot of planning just in the list development stage alone (the Mark system and all the various synergies they unlock.)

Off the top of my head his list included Be'lakor (not in the battalion), a Nurgle Daemon Prince with the Sword of Judgement, 1x40 Marauders and 1x20 Marauders (possibly 2x20), a Sorcerer Lord, a Warshrine and plenty of other goodies. He was using his super low drops to usually take first turn, then buffing up his big Marauder blob with Daemonic Power/Oracular Visions/Bloated Blessings/etc, teleporting them and then getting them stuck in immediately thanks to their near guaranteed 9" charge. Despite the nerf to it which was in play at Cancon, the combination of Bloated Blessings and Plaguetouched meant that his deathball would not only mince you with their attacks, you'd get minced for attacking them too (those mortal wounds add up). Be'lakor would use his Dark master ability on the scariest or most important enemy unit and, thanks to it lasting until his next hero phase, it forced the opponent to have to pick between taking a double turn and having a high chance of their best unit being rendered useless for two turns straight, or giving up the double turn completely to a list that could absolutely punish you for it. His Daemon Prince with the built in +1 to-hit absolutely tore things up with the Sword of Judgement, and in general I'm sure being Despoilers helped a lot with being able to make sight-blocking terrain on the fly.

Based on my own reading of the book - disregarding results - is that Be'lakor, Daemon Princes, Sorcerer Lords (of either flavour), Chaos Lords (of the foot and Karkadrak variety), Warshrines, Marauders and Sphiranxes at minimum are all incredibly strong units that complement each other. The thing about Slaves to Darkness compared to other books is that it's hugely synergy-based, which is why it might seem like nothing stands out on their own - it's because you're supposed to build your list around the idea of each unit complementing each other and having a specific role. The above list did that in spades, and the results speak for themselves.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Jaskier

[MitGas]

34 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

Mr Slaves to Darkness himself went 5-1 at Cancon with a Slaves to Darkness allegiance Plaguetouched list in Despoilers, and his only loss came to the nastiest Fyreslayers list at the event which took 3rd place. This is all my based off my recollection from chatting to him so I apologize if I get anything wrong, but he's incredibly pleased with the book and definitely proved how strong they can be. Plenty of others were also impressed with the book in general and believe it's being under-estimated because it requires a lot of planning just in the list development stage alone (the Mark system and all the various synergies they unlock.)

Off the top of my head his list included Be'lakor (not in the battalion), a Nurgle Daemon Prince with the Sword of Judgement, 1x40 Marauders and 1x20 Marauders (possibly 2x20), a Sorcerer Lord, a Warshrine and plenty of other goodies. He was using his super low drops to usually take first turn, then buffing up his big Marauder blob with Daemonic Power/Oracular Visions/Bloated Blessings/etc, teleporting them and then getting them stuck in immediately thanks to their near guaranteed 9" charge. Despite the nerf to it which was in play at Cancon, the combination of Bloated Blessings and Plaguetouched meant that his deathball would not only mince you with their attacks, you'd get minced for attacking them too (those mortal wounds add up). Be'lakor would use his Dark master ability on the scariest or most important enemy unit and, thanks to it lasting until his next hero phase, it forced the opponent to have to pick between taking a double turn and having a high chance of their best unit being rendered useless for two turns straight, or giving up the double turn completely to a list that could absolutely punish you for it. His Daemon Prince with the built in +1 to-hit absolutely tore things up with the Sword of Judgement, and in general I'm sure being Despoilers helped a lot with being able to make sight-blocking terrain on the fly.

Based on my own reading of the book - disregarding results - is that Be'lakor, Daemon Princes, Sorcerer Lords (of either flavour), Chaos Lords (of the foot and Karkadrak variety), Warshrines, Marauders and Sphiranxes at minimum are all incredibly strong units that complement each other. The thing about Slaves to Darkness compared to other books is that it's hugely synergy-based, which is why it might seem like nothing stands out on their own - it's because you're supposed to build your list around the idea of each unit complementing each other and having a specific role. The above list did that in spades, and the results speak for themselves.

That sounds like disgusting power-gaming but it also sounds hella devious.

[JCar09]

Well, I have a chaos war mammoth and I'm thinking of using it competitively. I think it fits in wonderfully with the legions of the demon princes

 

 

[Inquisitorsz]

1 hour ago, Jaskier said:

snip

That, and new Archaon seems to be pretty damn strong too. He works pretty well with most of the single god books/factions too.  

I've seen some nasty Khorne lisst with him and he seems to do well in Tzeentch too.  

As people have stated, Demon Princes, Belakor, most of the heroes, marauders etc... are great. Personally I hate how much better marauders are than the other core units because I hate horde stuff and I hate the old models. Would have been nice to make warriors and knights a bit more useful, but they're still good.  

I was on the receiving end of a disgusting glottkin, plaugetouched, nurgle knight deathstar at Cancon.  

Also the chaos spells.... stopping a unit moving completely for a turn is HUGE. Strike last as a spell is very handy too. Combine both of those with a Spinranx and Belakor's ability and you have some major trolling going on. 
The possibility of shutting down you're opponents 400+ pt deathstar unit for like 2-3 turns in huge. You can lock down those annoying 20 pink horrors, or that massive block of hearthguard or that unit of 9 eels/kurnoth hunters etc.... 
Yeah ok, there's spell ranges and casting and so on to factor in, but the tools are there. 

Seems like the S2D book really gave everyone except maybe slaanesh a new lease on life. Slaanesh didn't really need it to be honest but even if you just take a few allies and the one drop battalions into your mono-god armies, that's still something. 

Varanguard are probably the only disappointment. They are OK when they get their Circle buff (and only 1 of those 8 are any good) but you sacrifice a fair bit and are pretty much forced into a single type of list to do that.  On their own, in any other list, they don't seem to be worth 300pts. 

Other than that, some minor units like chariots, warcry warbands etc.... are pretty meh. But all the main stuff is great. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Inquisitorsz

[Death1942]

4 hours ago, Jaskier said:

Mr Slaves to Darkness himself went 5-1 at Cancon with a Slaves to Darkness allegiance Plaguetouched list in Despoilers, and his only loss came to the nastiest Fyreslayers list at the event which took 3rd place. This is all my based off my recollection from chatting to him so I apologize if I get anything wrong, but he's incredibly pleased with the book and definitely proved how strong they can be. Plenty of others were also impressed with the book in general and believe it's being under-estimated because it requires a lot of planning just in the list development stage alone (the Mark system and all the various synergies they unlock.)

Off the top of my head his list included Be'lakor (not in the battalion), a Nurgle Daemon Prince with the Sword of Judgement, 1x40 Marauders and 1x20 Marauders (possibly 2x20), a Sorcerer Lord, a Warshrine and plenty of other goodies. He was using his super low drops to usually take first turn, then buffing up his big Marauder blob with Daemonic Power/Oracular Visions/Bloated Blessings/etc, teleporting them and then getting them stuck in immediately thanks to their near guaranteed 9" charge. Despite the nerf to it which was in play at Cancon, the combination of Bloated Blessings and Plaguetouched meant that his deathball would not only mince you with their attacks, you'd get minced for attacking them too (those mortal wounds add up). Be'lakor would use his Dark master ability on the scariest or most important enemy unit and, thanks to it lasting until his next hero phase, it forced the opponent to have to pick between taking a double turn and having a high chance of their best unit being rendered useless for two turns straight, or giving up the double turn completely to a list that could absolutely punish you for it. His Daemon Prince with the built in +1 to-hit absolutely tore things up with the Sword of Judgement, and in general I'm sure being Despoilers helped a lot with being able to make sight-blocking terrain on the fly.
 

Found the list, seems pretty strong but I am not sure about the 5 man chosen unit, not sure what it does in the long run.

[Jaskier]

@Inquisitorsz Agreed about Archaon, I tried using him in Syll'Esskan Host just after the new Slaves book dropped and was really surprised at just how strong they made him, especially with the addition of the Hedonite keyword. Also 100% spot on regarding the spells, on first read-through of the book that no-movement spell literally made my jaw drop. That among all the other tools the book has make me seriously question anyone who says it's a weak battletome, it seems like the hold-up for some is putting them all to good use and prioritizing which ones to include. I really think Varanguard should have been able to choose an extra circle with that battalion, it was such a no-brainer addition but as it stands I just can't see paying that many points for versatility being worth it.

@Death1942 Seems like I misremembered some details after all 😁 no Daemonic Power in the list, but honestly the Warshrine buff and Aura for +1 Damage on 6s to-wound kind of render that moot. I can't comment on the Chosen other than they're filling up the Plaguetouched, though even 5 of them buffed up are a fairly scary unit in their own right and another method of unlocking re-roll wound rolls for his army.

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Jaskier

[flemingmma]

2 hours ago, Death1942 said:

Found the list, seems pretty strong but I am not sure about the 5 man chosen unit, not sure what it does in the long run.

Flavour

[KoalaSnok]

Speaking of Be'lakor, how are peoples experience with the resin kit? Is it well cast or, like the few finecast kits I have tried from GW, a nightmare of beard and bent shapes? I like the look of the model but am very hesitant to put myself through the agony of another failcast, even one as awesome as the dark prince. Sadly the metal version on ebay is way too expensive for me.

[NJohansson]

That’s the thing with this book - it has really strong elements and it is definitely not one of the weakest books if used properly - but a lot of people are stuck on chaos warriors. Yes I agree they are the staple (fluff wise) and I have 30+ laying around waiting for better days but if you want to go with higher win rate you probably should look at marauders as your foundation. The same goes for marks - Tzeentch is generally better left out of the equation (Gaunt summoner notable exception) while Khorne and Nurgle seems really strong.

[whispersofblood]

6 hours ago, Death1942 said:

Found the list, seems pretty strong but I am not sure about the 5 man chosen unit, not sure what it does in the long run.

That's a 4 drop list, so it's not even very capable of going first very often late into day 2.

It's probably a pretty good interpretation of Plague touched. Auto loses to any competitive Tzeentch build, including S2D so keep in mind your local meta if people choose to build it. 

[JackStreicher]

10 hours ago, Jaskier said:

- it's because you're supposed to build your list around the idea of each unit complementing each other and having a specific role. The above list did that in spades, and the results speak for themselves.

We all knew Nurgle was the most potent one (along with Khorne), even after the nerf. 
Our units shouldn‘t costed like they‘d always be buffed up, especially when the buff is a gamble (Warshrine, spells).

And yes Marauders are great, no argument, yet it‘s annoying that knights, warriors and cultists are utterly meh ^^

Edited February 7, 2020 by JackStreicher

[Grimrock]

6 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

That's a 4 drop list, so it's not even very capable of going first very often late into day 2.

It's probably a pretty good interpretation of Plague touched. Auto loses to any competitive Tzeentch build, including S2D so keep in mind your local meta if people choose to build it. 

I'm curious how this auto loses to a competitive tzeentch build. The aura of nurgle gives a -1 to hit from shooting and the heroes are generally getting look out sir and/or the harbringer buff, so sniping them out will be extremely difficult. After that he neuters the most powerful unit like the 20 pinks or a unit of flamers with be'lakor and puts his block of marauders at a 4+ rerollable save and a 5+ invul from the harbringer which should tank the alpha pretty reliably. If he gets through that alpha the marauders can absolutely shred horrors with full rerolls, as can the sorcerer lord on manticore if he gets the spell off, and the daemon princes can target out the heroes to remove the locus. Actually I think this list stands a better chance than most against tzeentch.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Grimrock

[Midjithero]

I’m planning on running a Slaanesh mortal list and include 1 40 man block of Marauders.

i don’t want to give the Marauders the mark of Slaanesh, because I don’t think it’s more effective than say, Nurgle due to the Warshrine buff, and the ability to auto charge off of teleport and block units.

the question is, in a roll such as holding units in place and being buffed by both Sorc Lord for RR saves and Warshrine prayer...would it be better to mark the Marauders as Nurgle for +1 save or to Mark them Undivided to do a little more damage on the charge AND be battle shock immune??  
 

my initial thought is Nurgle, but I’m seeing the benefits of undivided maybe a better option.  My list is:

Despoilers: be’lakor (General), Slaanesh Sorc Lord, Slaanesh Chaos Lord, Slaanesh Karkadrak -3 rend weapon(battalion), 2x 5 marauder horsemen Slaanesh, 10 knights with lances slaanesh, 40 marauders, Warshrine, demonrift, extra CP, Godswrath Battallion.

[whispersofblood]

1 minute ago, Grimrock said:

I'm curious how this auto loses to a competitive tzeentch build. The aura of nurgle gives a -1 to hit from shooting and the heroes are generally getting look out sir and/or the harbringer buff, so sniping them out will be extremely difficult. After that he neuters the most powerful unit like the 20 pinks or a unit of flamers with be'lakor and puts his block of marauders at a 4+ rerollable save and a 5+ invul from the harbringer which should tank the alpha pretty reliably. If he gets through that alpha the marauders can absolutely shred horrors with full rerolls, as can the sorcerer lord on manticore if he gets the spell off, and the daemon princes can target out the heroes to remove the locus. Actually I think this list stands a better chance than most against tzeentch.

The problem with a lot of builds these days is that they are all order of operations based, what makes DoT so powerful is that no single piece is that fundamentally important. If you want to waste The Dark Master ability on 3 flamers the DoT player will tank that.

The S2D components are easy to manage, the only heroes that project an aura are the DP, so he is locked in as either an offensive piece or a defensive piece. Just as a funny aside, here is how I could turn one nuke this army.

Blue Scribes 2+ Spell portal, from 30.1" cast daemonrift through portal, If I can tag the Sorcerer, every unit within 7" of the spell portal can take  d3+sorcerer/spell portal/potential Be'lakor MW. Lord of Change dispels spell portal.

The S2D player is forced to deploy in a shell with his heroes probably very deep to avoid the 27" threat range of walking flamers, which means they are probably using the 20 man as a screen. IF the heroes are protected its actually pretty easy to remove the marauders, even with -1 from Aura flamers hit on 2s. 2x3 flamers and 2 exalted flamers can quite easily removed 60 marauders in one round of shooting. Or, they can remove 11 marauders, and force you to use a cp on Battleshock, for the 20 man, and then use the rest to target the 40 man. Once this build loses its numbers, and its CP usuage can be forced out, where is the dmg and abilities?

It is a mistake to target the heroes in this match up, but you do need to understand their purpose in the list, the main problem is that if a build has reach this army has to deploy deeper and deeper to maintain its integrity or it just gets pulled apart. Its a common issue with basically every S2D build except maybe Fatesword Warband which is just chaff, and mws.
 

[JangutzKhan]

8 hours ago, NJohansson said:

That’s the thing with this book - it has really strong elements and it is definitely not one of the weakest books if used properly - but a lot of people are stuck on chaos warriors. Yes I agree they are the staple (fluff wise) and I have 30+ laying around waiting for better days but if you want to go with higher win rate you probably should look at marauders as your foundation. The same goes for marks - Tzeentch is generally better left out of the equation (Gaunt summoner notable exception) while Khorne and Nurgle seems really strong.

If GW gave us new marauders I’d used them, just not the current models. Would love the shielded spire tyrants in 10 man units to use. 
 

It just seems that the competitive builds force you down the horde path, which a lot of players don’t like. I prefer to run smaller elite units or mid sized units myself, and the battletome doesn’t seem to really favour that style. 

 

[begleysm]

14 minutes ago, Midjithero said:

I’m planning on running a Slaanesh mortal list and include 1 40 man block of Marauders.

i don’t want to give the Marauders the mark of Slaanesh, because I don’t think it’s more effective than say, Nurgle due to the Warshrine buff, and the ability to auto charge off of teleport and block units.

the question is, in a roll such as holding units in place and being buffed by both Sorc Lord for RR saves and Warshrine prayer...would it be better to mark the Marauders as Nurgle for +1 save or to Mark them Undivided to do a little more damage on the charge AND be battle shock immune??  
 

my initial thought is Nurgle, but I’m seeing the benefits of undivided maybe a better option.  My list is:

Despoilers: be’lakor (General), Slaanesh Sorc Lord, Slaanesh Chaos Lord, Slaanesh Karkadrak -3 rend weapon(battalion), 2x 5 marauder horsemen Slaanesh, 10 knights with lances slaanesh, 40 marauders, Warshrine, demonrift, extra CP, Godswrath Battallion.

 

Your list is very similar to what I'm putting together.  Now, I'm a total newb so take it with a grain of salt... but  Here's my list

 

Spoiler

2000/2000
122 Wounds
5 drop
Despoilers

Daemon Prince - 210
General
Paragon of Ruin
Hellforged Sword
Diabolic Mantle (D3 Command Points at start of game)
Khorne (for Bloodslick Ground)

Chaos Lord on Karkadrak - 250
Battalion Hero
Helm of Many Eyes (attack first)
Slaanesh

Be'Lakor - 240
Undivided (obviously)
Binding Damnation

Chaos Sorcerer Lord - 110
Nurgle
Mask of Darkness

5 Chaos Knights - 180
Travel with Chaos Lord on Karkadrak
Ensorcelled Weapons
Slaanesh

5 Chaos Knights - 180
Travel with Daemon Prince
Cursed Lances
Khorne

15 Chaos Warriors - 300
Hand Weapons & Shields
Nurgle

10 Marauder Horsemen - 180
Javelins & Shields
Undivided

Chaos Warshrine - 170
Undivided

Godsworn Champions of Ruin Battalion - 180
- Chaos Lord on Karkadrak is the Hero to be able to fight in the Hero phase

 

You've basically swapped in 40 Marauders for my 15 Warriors (probably smart but I like the Warriors models and don't have any Marauders); swapped in Demonfire Rift, an extra CP, and a Chaos Lord for my Daemon Prince; and gone with the Godswrath instead of Godsworn Batallion.

 

 

 

Regarding Marks: I plan on keeping the Nurgle Warriors near the Nurgle Sorc Lord and the Undivided Marauder Horse next to Undivided Be'Lakor.  I went with Nurgle on my Warriors because I like the Warshrine buff better and hopefully they will get reroll to hit & wound from Daemonic Power.  For my Marauder Horsemen I went Unmarked because I want to run them near Be'lakor and the Warshrine buff is great.

[ColsBols]

17 hours ago, Inquisitorsz said:

That, and new Archaon seems to be pretty damn strong too. He works pretty well with most of the single god books/factions too.  

I've seen some nasty Khorne lisst with him and he seems to do well in Tzeentch too.  

Got any links to those lists? What's the gist?

[Inquisitorsz]

12 minutes ago, ColsBols said:

Got any links to those lists? What's the gist?

Was reading this the other day. 

OP discusses his khorne Archaon list. I think he has a podcast too? 

Seems to be focused around buffing Archaon heavily and having him attack multiple times each turn. 

 

[Grimrock]

46 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

The problem with a lot of builds these days is that they are all order of operations based, what makes DoT so powerful is that no single piece is that fundamentally important. If you want to waste The Dark Master ability on 3 flamers the DoT player will tank that.

The S2D components are easy to manage, the only heroes that project an aura are the DP, so he is locked in as either an offensive piece or a defensive piece. Just as a funny aside, here is how I could turn one nuke this army.

Blue Scribes 2+ Spell portal, from 30.1" cast daemonrift through portal, If I can tag the Sorcerer, every unit within 7" of the spell portal can take  d3+sorcerer/spell portal/potential Be'lakor MW. Lord of Change dispels spell portal.

The S2D player is forced to deploy in a shell with his heroes probably very deep to avoid the 27" threat range of walking flamers, which means they are probably using the 20 man as a screen. IF the heroes are protected its actually pretty easy to remove the marauders, even with -1 from Aura flamers hit on 2s. 2x3 flamers and 2 exalted flamers can quite easily removed 60 marauders in one round of shooting. Or, they can remove 11 marauders, and force you to use a cp on Battleshock, for the 20 man, and then use the rest to target the 40 man. Once this build loses its numbers, and its CP usuage can be forced out, where is the dmg and abilities?

It is a mistake to target the heroes in this match up, but you do need to understand their purpose in the list, the main problem is that if a build has reach this army has to deploy deeper and deeper to maintain its integrity or it just gets pulled apart. Its a common issue with basically every S2D build except maybe Fatesword Warband which is just chaff, and mws.
 

I don't really want to get into a theory hammer debate, but I'll just mention a few things. First, remember that if you target the small unit you lose the +2 to hit on flamers as soon as they lose a single model, and obviously the +1 to hit when they drop below 10. Even assuming you target the large unit your math is waaaay off. 2x3 flamers averages 18 wounds to completely unbuffed marauders. 2 exalted average about 10 with the nurgle aura.  So average 28, but with the guaranteed shrine buff 28 becomes about 23. Definitely shy of 60. If the tzeentch player doesn't go first and aims for a double turn then the marauders can have have the warshrine buff, oracular, and the harbinger (none of which can be dispelled) and the 23 wounds drops to about 10. Any number of surviving marauders will trash the flamers as they'll be in charge range on the next turn. 

I mean I'm not saying it's a guaranteed win or anything, but I don't think auto loss is anywhere near accurate. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Grimrock

[NJohansson]

14 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

That's a 4 drop list, so it's not even very capable of going first very often late into day 2.

It's probably a pretty good interpretation of Plague touched. Auto loses to any competitive Tzeentch build, including S2D so keep in mind your local meta if people choose to build it. 

It’s funny that the list went 4-1 in a cut throat environment and only lost to a list that ended up top 10. Most lists that auto loose to anything end up much further down. Yes the new DoT are very strong but this is a list that really has potential (naturally pending on opponents/opposite list). Saying that something is auto loose is just throwing everything back To ”StD sucks - we need a new army book”.  I play DoT as my main army (STD as my second) and I would not feel that the list in question has no chance against any of my lists - I might feel that some of my lists should have an advantage but definitely not an auto loss in any way. 

[Cambot1231]

For legions of the everchosen I just wanted to confirm that you are not allowed to take any artifacts on your heros as a legion restriction. Not even those offered with malign sorcery artifacts 

[Spears]

Maybe worth explaining the logic for that:

https://twitter.com/N3RD28/status/1223728997164556290

 

Also warscroll for the Wurmspat is up, not sure I had seen it before. I don't think they bring much as allies sadly.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos_the_wurmspat_en.pdf

Edited February 8, 2020 by Spears

[Charleston]

On 2/6/2020 at 2:59 PM, begleysm said:

You can have a Gaunt Summoner.  Ravagers, Cabalists, Despoilers, & Host of the Everchosen are all types of Damned Legions.  However "Everchosen" is not a Damned Legion.

 

Spoiler

 

My only issue around this is, that it looks like GW simply failed to write the Keywords in the right way and that Gaunt Summoners will be FAQ´d to be "Host of the Everchosen". Otherwise I would get one and start some Cabalists-Sheningans. But I won´t buy models when I have to be afraid that a key-unit like the Gaunt Summoner may loose the Legion-Ability.

[Charleston]

1 hour ago, Spears said:

Also warscroll for the Wurmspat is up, not sure I had seen it before. I don't think they bring much as allies sadly.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//aos_the_wurmspat_en.pdf

Looks okay to me. It´s another detailed and awesome sculpt, the 3 Damage Spell can be handy in quite some cases, having a sorcerer with bodyguards is also fun and 180pts is more than okay. Althrough she really gets usefull in a Rotbringers Army, where she can use one more spell so she can cast stuff while beeing away from the enemy, and switch to her signature spell as soon as an enemy approaches. With her bodyguard she also may be quite a nice backfield-objective-holder