Hard Copy vs. Electronic

[Greyshadow]

I'm an old grognard so I like physical. I printed my own warscroll cards for the units I don't have the official ones for. However, in 8th edition I did use the digital rulebook more than the monstrous physical book as the search feature made things so much faster.

I really like the AoS App though. My only gripe is that I wish the iPad version of the scrolls looked nice, like the purchased printed ones. On mobile phones however I wouldn't change a thing, the presentation is excellent.

[chord]

I just want to be released on PC (in a support manner not using an emulator) so that I can have it on a larger screen size. 

[Zappgrot]

On 11/10/2019 at 8:08 AM, Sleboda said:

Hi folks,

I'm currently participating in a weekend of tournaments (Best Appearance Team yesterday, 2-1 today on day one of five game singles event so far ...) and I've noticed something.

More people are using phones with the AoS app to look up warscrolls than I've seen before. In two days I've faced six opponents, and I think four, maybe three, of them used the app instead of paper. It really stood out to me.

I don't know that a poll is needed (but maybe), but I'm interested in a general discussion of hard copy versus app for finding rules.

Me, personally, as an old, old man with bad eyes and I love of the smell of paper, just can't make the switch to digital. That said, I know lots of people feel differently.

What are your thoughts? Paper? Digital?

Key question: Does the setting make a difference? If you are playing basement games as opposed to tournaments, does that impact your choice?

Just curious.

paper obviously if i hit my opponent whit the digital version i might break my screen.

But  sincerely for me there is nothing like the good old feeling of a real book. It weight makes it real for me.

I know that is just a nostalgic emotional  reason but i just prefer paper because of the feel. 

 

 

[amysrevenge]

On 11/10/2019 at 12:08 AM, Sleboda said:

Me, personally, as an old, old man with bad eyes and I love of the smell of paper, just can't make the switch to digital. 

Me, personally, as an old man with ok but degrading eyes (44 years old and I still don't need glasses, other than reading glasses for small text), I love the pinch-zoom feature of the digital books to make the text as big as I need it to be to read. 

I also like being able to pop into a book to reference something while I'm at work or out and about.

[Landohammer]

 There just isn't enough practical information in the army books to justify their $40 purchase. That money could be spent on a battleline unit or go toward a start collecting box. If I added up all the money I spent on armybooks then I could EASILY have another 2000pt army.

Lets be honest, buying new books at release is exciting. But we usually only crack them open 2-3 times to read fluff and review warscroll changes. After that they sit on a shelf (or in a bag) while we reference the AoS app or Battlescribe during games. 

The meat of AOS is in its warscrolls. Things not in warscrolls like Allegiance abilities and Spells are used SO frequently that we all memorize them almost immediately. 

[Overread]

6 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

 There just isn't enough practical information in the army books to justify their $40 purchase. That money could be spent on a battleline unit or go toward a start collecting box. If I added up all the money I spent on armybooks then I could EASILY have another 2000pt army.

Lets be honest, buying new books at release is exciting. But we usually only crack them open 2-3 times to read fluff and review warscroll changes. After that they sit on a shelf (or in a bag) while we reference the AoS app or Battlescribe during games. 

The meat of AOS is in its warscrolls. Things not in warscrolls like Allegiance abilities and Spells are used SO frequently that we all memorize them almost immediately. 

And yet that bit of lore often is what brings many gamers back and back to their Warhammer armies over other brands and companies. That connection to a story; those inspiring ideas that might set the seed of stories or adventures. Also conversion ideas (how many people want to make skaven skyships because of the few paragraphs of lore that outline them). 

Often I hear people say that they come back to warhammer partly because of the lore of the game even if its just army and codex/battletome level and not reading into the Black Library stuff.

 

Sure when you're active and engaged with your army you feel like all you need are warscrolls and rules and there are those who have no mind of the lore what so ever. But I'd wager that the lore aspects being in the same book encourages people to read them and get immersed. Consider how many at the local club have read their army book cover to cover - now of that bunch how many have read one Black Library novel or more than one (and of them who read anything outside of the Horus Heresy series). I'd wager the number reading is quite small, far fewer than those who have read their battletome cover to cover more than once. 

[gjnoronh]

On 11/10/2019 at 2:08 AM, Sleboda said:

Hi folks,

I'm currently participating in a weekend of tournaments (Best Appearance Team yesterday, 2-1 today on day one of five game singles event so far ...) and I've noticed something.

More people are using phones with the AoS app to look up warscrolls than I've seen before. In two days I've faced six opponents, and I think four, maybe three, of them used the app instead of paper. It really stood out to me.

I don't know that a poll is needed (but maybe), but I'm interested in a general discussion of hard copy versus app for finding rules.

Me, personally, as an old, old man with bad eyes and I love of the smell of paper, just can't make the switch to digital. That said, I know lots of people feel differently.

What are your thoughts? Paper? Digital?

Key question: Does the setting make a difference? If you are playing basement games as opposed to tournaments, does that impact your choice?

Just curious.

As Joe knows I'm an old man as well.

I think for tournament AoS we have a very young group generally speaking.   There are very few tournament stalwarts from 6th/7th/8th ed on the scene.    There are some older players but not that many who have been continuously active on the tournament scene.  Da Boyz had about 75  AoS people including judges and I think about 10% are long term tournament level players.  That sort of reflected the crowd over 40 I would guess.

Personally I prefer printed warscroll cards as you can just have them on the table and leave them out to grab as needed.    

I couldn't read rules effectively on my phone - but I could read rules on my Ipad.    

Basement games without time pressure I'd be more willing to use electronic resources.   That's often where I'm testing out a new list. 

Tournament games I'd prefer printed materials organized so I could find what I want quickly. AoS Reminders is a great example of what I've historically just typed up for tournament AoS play.

 

Gary

 

 

 

[Kramer]

37 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

The meat of AOS is in its warscrolls. Things not in warscrolls like Allegiance abilities and Spells are used SO frequently that we all memorize them almost immediately. 

Oh that’s more subjective than you think (or at least present it). I keep going back to the books for the fluff, the narrative, the artwork! That’s where inspiration sparks for me. 
the warscrolls in a physical book are the secondary part. The meat is in the lore. All that other stuff changes, is better viewed through digital solutions and the warscrolls are freely available anyway. 

but that other stuff. I read the ogor book. Nothing immediately sparked for me. I went to the ogre kingdom book for inspiration. Something kind of brewed due to a piece of art. Went back to mawtribes and just flicked through it and suddenly something grabbed my eye. And now I have that inspiration. That wouldn’t have happened (in that manner) without the hard copies to flick through. 
but for gaming digital is easier to me  

[Gareth 🍄]

On 11/10/2019 at 11:59 AM, Panzer said:

Physical copies to have at home in my shelf, digital copies for practical use.

Same.

I use the app on my 10" tablet and my phone.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Gareth 🍄

[Zadolix]

Physical all the way. There is something special about the colour and artistry that gets lost in the pixels of a digital copy compared to a physical copy. Plus a physical copy just 'feels' better. I also like the non reliance on battery power. I also find it faster once I'm familiar with the book compared to digital.

[Televiper11]

I prefer physical. I got into this hobby to get away from screens. At the last tournament I played in, one of my opponents was texting throughout the game. It felt disrespectful. I don't mind someone using a phone or iPad to look up a rule or warscroll, I've done it myself. But the more tech that appears on the table, the more disruptive to the game that tech tends to be.

[Landohammer]

16 hours ago, Overread said:

And yet that bit of lore often is what brings many gamers back and back to their Warhammer armies over other brands and companies. That connection to a story; those inspiring ideas that might set the seed of stories or adventures. Also conversion ideas (how many people want to make skaven skyships because of the few paragraphs of lore that outline them). 

Often I hear people say that they come back to warhammer partly because of the lore of the game even if its just army and codex/battletome level and not reading into the Black Library stuff.

 

Sure when you're active and engaged with your army you feel like all you need are warscrolls and rules and there are those who have no mind of the lore what so ever. But I'd wager that the lore aspects being in the same book encourages people to read them and get immersed. Consider how many at the local club have read their army book cover to cover - now of that bunch how many have read one Black Library novel or more than one (and of them who read anything outside of the Horus Heresy series). I'd wager the number reading is quite small, far fewer than those who have read their battletome cover to cover more than once. 

 

I don't disagree. The codexes are great to draw in new players. I would strongly recommend ANY new or returning players pick up their codexes.

But are new/returning players really making those super inspired conversion armies? In my experience, those are usually made by the veterans with multiple armies. 

 

16 hours ago, Kramer said:

Oh that’s more subjective than you think (or at least present it). I keep going back to the books for the fluff, the narrative, the artwork! That’s where inspiration sparks for me. 
the warscrolls in a physical book are the secondary part. The meat is in the lore. All that other stuff changes, is better viewed through digital solutions and the warscrolls are freely available anyway. 

but that other stuff. I read the ogor book. Nothing immediately sparked for me. I went to the ogre kingdom book for inspiration. Something kind of brewed due to a piece of art. Went back to mawtribes and just flicked through it and suddenly something grabbed my eye. And now I have that inspiration. That wouldn’t have happened (in that manner) without the hard copies to flick through. 
but for gaming digital is easier to me  

 

I am the exact opposite. I pour over the book when I first buy it, and basically just memorize the relevant rule snippets. Then a day or two later it goes on my book shelf right next to the End Times Books, 8th edition books, and AOS 1.0 books. Never to be touched again lol. 

As a long time player I tend to look at it more in terms of the financial aspect. I  still occasionally use  models that I bought 10 years ago, and I still field almost all of my models that I bought 5 years ago. Most, if not all, can be sold on Ebay in an instant.

But rulebooks older than 2 years as nearly (if not completely) worthless. My FLGS was giving them away at the last tournament.

 

[ANevskyUSA]

I like the OnDeadTree version. I find it quicker and easier to look things up in the middle of a game. Heck, I even printed out the warscrolls for my Dispossessed army and put them into binders just to make it easier to find while playing.

Also, don't discount the importance of the tactile. Would using a random number generator on one's phone feel as good as rolling a bunch of dice? I think most would prefer the latter.

[EccentricCircle]

Having the rules be free on the internet is great, but I always want physical copies of things. I love the feel of just sitting and reading a proper book, I just can't enjoy reading stuff on the computer as much, and trying to read from my phone is pretty much impossible with my eyesight. You'd think being able to zoom in would be a nice feature, but in practice you loose so much of the page when you do that it is massively impractical.

What I'd like to do at some point is print out sets of warscrolls for commonly used combinations of troops on big sheets of A3 card though. That way my army stats can all be laid out in front of me in several columns, rather than having to flick between pages or shufflecardds in order to find the right unit. I'd be able to make each scroll bigger than an official warscroll card too, which would be handy!

[gjnoronh]

24 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

Having the rules be free on the internet is great, but I always want physical copies of things. I love the feel of just sitting and reading a proper book, I just can't enjoy reading stuff on the computer as much, and trying to read from my phone is pretty much impossible with my eyesight. You'd think being able to zoom in would be a nice feature, but in practice you loose so much of the page when you do that it is massively impractical.

What I'd like to do at some point is print out sets of warscrolls for commonly used combinations of troops on big sheets of A3 card though. That way my army stats can all be laid out in front of me in several columns, rather than having to flick between pages or shufflecardds in order to find the right unit. I'd be able to make each scroll bigger than an official warscroll card too, which would be handy!

most units have their warscroll as a free download on the GW website.

I have generally downloaded.  Laid out on A4 as I want, printed and then glued to a Cereal box cardboard piece to give them some heft.

Punch a hole in a corner and use a binder ring to keep them organized,  or drop them in a gallon ziplock freezer bag when packing up. 

 

 

[EccentricCircle]

Just now, gjnoronh said:

most units have their warscroll as a free download on the GW website.

I have generally downloaded.  Laid out on A4 as I want, printed and then glued to a Cereal box cardboard piece to give them some heft.

Punch a hole in a corner and use a binder ring to keep them organized,  or drop them in a gallon ziplock freezer bag when packing up. 

 

 

I've done that in the past (usually with a display book rather than a ring binder), but what I'm envisioning is more that you can have six - nine warscrolls laid out in a grid on a big bit of card, so that you don't have to flick between pages to find the right one. You might need to turn the page over occasionally, if you make it double sided. Then that can just sit on the clear end of the table, and you are good to go!

[bsharitt]

If it's a couple of pages that are together and I can swipe back and forth, I'm okay with a digital version(but even then I think I'd print it out if it's that small). I just find swiping or scrolling back and forth on a tablet to be a lot worse than what I can do with paper, especially if we're talking a full size book where I have to jump around the book, even if it has an okay working index. I'm not a total luddite, I like my Kindle for regular books/novels and don't mind my iPad for the task(though the bright screen gets to me quicker), but those I'm reading one page at a time and then going to the next in sequence. It's the jumping around that I find much slower on digital. I've been looking to play some older versions of Warhammer, and while I don't have as many qualms about "alternative" means of acquiring  digital copies of out of print material (compared to current stuff), I'm still paying the eBay premiums to gather dead tree versions of those old books.

[madmac]

I've switched entirely to digital for books and comic reading, but for Warhammer? Physical Books and cards as much as possible.

It's not an old man thing, I just hate how long it takes to look something up on a digital app compared to quickly flipping through a hardback. And woe betide me if I have to digitally go back and forth between warscrolls and battletome rules.

It's just faster and easier to have a hard book and warscroll cards for reference, in my experience.

[smartazjb0y]

2 hours ago, ANevskyUSA said:

Also, don't discount the importance of the tactile. Would using a random number generator on one's phone feel as good as rolling a bunch of dice? I think most would prefer the latter.

I think rolling dice and flipping through books are very different things

[overtninja]

I've seen more than a few hardcopy books roll over with the editions, first in WHFB and then in AoS. Army books, rules, and so forth are a transient product for me - I don't want to have a bunch of old paper sitting around with rules that I can't realistically use. At this point, I just buy my army books through the AoS app and reference them on my phone. Works just fine.

[ANevskyUSA]

9 minutes ago, overtninja said:

I've seen more than a few hardcopy books roll over with the editions, first in WHFB and then in AoS. Army books, rules, and so forth are a transient product for me - I don't want to have a bunch of old paper sitting around with rules that I can't realistically use. At this point, I just buy my army books through the AoS app and reference them on my phone. Works just fine.

I know what you mean. I buy the physical copy for the stuff I actually play, and the digital versions for everything else so that I can keep up with what everyone else has.