The Rumour Thread

[Snarff]

This sounds really good tbh. Curious to see what it's going to mean for some of the more unique subfactions (OOPS ALL DROTHS Lofnir for example). And hopefully it means that armies without many units are going to be getting more variety sooner rather than later.

Feels like this will also give more use to previously neglected or functionless heroes.

Edited April 3 by Snarff

[Scáthborn]

2 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

IIRC think the heroes will have the 3" rule so they will be sticking pretty close to their own units (which these new rules show will be usually certain units). I play Cities which already have this and it pretty much works like they joined the units.

This could be pretty good since we won't need like 6 of one hero, but the game still loses the aura armies that forces everything into a blob.

Yeah, that is very true! I really enjoyed Season 2 GHB rules with the increased emphasis on the smaller heroes. So I like the push to have the hero with the units they represent together. It was definitely more a wish list thing for me, i know others that would prefer not to have it too! 

[PraetorDragoon]

Heroes determining what kind of guys they can take with them is always a nice idea to see. Fingers crossed it gets implemented in a fun way. 

[Ganigumo]

13 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Army Building changes in 4.0. Some pretty big changes, so worth giving the article a read.

Summary:

• Every army now comprises of 1+ Regiments.
• Regiments are led by a Hero, who can take up to 3 non-Hero Units (4 if the Hero is a General).
• Heroes have a list of what units can be in their Regiment (EG Alarith Stonemage can take ALARITH units and Vanari Auralan Wardens).
• Unique faction leaders can usually include any unit from their army.
• Some Heroes allow you to take additional Heroes in the Regiment ontop of that (EG Mighty Lord of Khorne can take GORECHOSEN Heroes)
• Units in a Regiment are deployed as a single drop.
• Other 3.0 restrictions are gone.
• Battlefield Roles (EG Battleline, Behemoth) are gone.
• Auxiliary Units are units outside of a Regiment
• No limit on Auxiliaries, but they're each a single drop
• Player with the least Auxiliaries gets an extra Command Point
• Command Points are a "scarce resource in this edition."
• Sub-Factions are called Battle Formations
• Battle Formations focus on the fighting style rather than specific backgrounds (EG like the 40k Detachments do in 10th)
• Command Traits have become Heroic Traits, can be given to any Hero.

My initial read is that this is a worse system than what we currently have.
Currently you build your list, take whatever you want then organize it into battalions. (Battalion balance is a problem)
So their solution is to just make every battalion battle regiment, but have specific unit requirements.
Sure they've gotten rid of roles like behemoths and battleline, but this is actually way more restrictive.
Want to run 'ardboyz? better take the ardboy boss with the terrible overcosted warscroll (theoretically).
Want to run a fungoid cave shaman in your troll list? They can only be taken with grots so enjoy your free extra drop.
This system also punishes hero heavy armies super badly for no reason.
Also why on earth are they rewarding the person who has less drops with free command points? You already get control of priority that way, why do they get extra benefits?
The only problem this solves with the current system is battle regiment being too good, but it does it by just deleting every other battalion and adding a bunch of extra bloat.
This reminds me a lot of 40k design in a bad way honestly. Where they double punish unoptimized decisions. "playing a weird list? Enjoy losing priority and bleeding command points"
Also the scarce command point thing isn't fun, from my experience with 40k. Sure the strategems were too powerful, and pregame ones caused problems, But CP are the way you add reactivity to the game, so bottlenecking them makes the game less interactive.

[RyantheFett]

10 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

I have no clue about the current one or the new one, but why would it add fun? Isn't it just another way to build armies?

The current system is a bit restrictive, but at the same time crazy important for certain match ups. Having the one drop to help a player go first can pretty much end the game turn 1. My LRL really need that +5 ward save up ASAP.

Not sure the new system is better, but it does look like they have a lot more freedom for units, but it looks like heroes will be crazy important. Have a feeling that it will weed out a lot weaker heroes and we will end up seeing the same few over and over.

[Chikout]

The new system sounds potentially interesting. I hope the incentives they mention encourage players to continue to use regular units. My worry about the sub factions is the loss of lore. I don’t want to lose 4 pages of lore from every battletome. I hope they keep them in even if they don’t have a place in the rules. 

[The Lost Sigmarite]

43 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Army Building changes in 4.0. Some pretty big changes, so worth giving the article a read.

Summary:

• Every army now comprises of 1+ Regiments.
• Regiments are led by a Hero, who can take up to 3 non-Hero Units (4 if the Hero is a General).
• Heroes have a list of what units can be in their Regiment (EG Alarith Stonemage can take ALARITH units and Vanari Auralan Wardens).
• Unique faction leaders can usually include any unit from their army.
• Some Heroes allow you to take additional Heroes in the Regiment ontop of that (EG Mighty Lord of Khorne can take GORECHOSEN Heroes)
• Units in a Regiment are deployed as a single drop.
• Other 3.0 restrictions are gone.
• Battlefield Roles (EG Battleline, Behemoth) are gone.
• Auxiliary Units are units outside of a Regiment
• No limit on Auxiliaries, but they're each a single drop
• Player with the least Auxiliaries gets an extra Command Point
• Command Points are a "scarce resource in this edition."
• Sub-Factions are called Battle Formations
• Battle Formations focus on the fighting style rather than specific backgrounds (EG like the 40k Detachments do in 10th)
• Command Traits have become Heroic Traits, can be given to any Hero.

The regiments you build around a hero that unlocks some units is exactly the same system as the list building in Conquest with the heroes and their warbands. I like it a lot ! (If you’re copying other wargames, at least copy the ones with well designed rules !)

And the auxiliary units are an interesting spin on list building. We’ll have to see if taking them is interesting. 

Also you missed (no he didn't) the part of reinforcing - if you wanna reinforce your units you must reinforce ALL the regiment - and there’s no limits on reinforcing units but you can’t double reinforce anymore.

Bit sad about subfactions changing but at least we’re keeping artefacts, hero traits, spell and prayer lores unlike what 40k got with “enhancements”…

Edited April 3 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Ejecutor]

2 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

The current system is a bit restrictive, but at the same time crazy important for certain match ups. Having the one drop to help a player go first can pretty much end the game turn 1. My LRL really need that +5 ward save up ASAP.

Not sure the new system is better, but it does look like they have a lot more freedom for units, but it looks like heroes will be crazy important. Have a feeling that it will weed out a lot weaker heroes and we will end up seeing the same few over and over.

It feels more thematic at least, that, without having played a single game, seems better for me as a lore enjoyer.

[Nezzhil]

19 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

I have no clue about the current one or the new one, but why would it add fun? Isn't it just another way to build armies?

You can do what you want, 0 restrictions about list building but if you are more creative and respect the lore you will get real rewards.

[Clan's Cynic]

3 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

The regiments you build around a hero that unlocks some units is exactly the same system as the list building in Conquest with the heroes and their warbands. I like it a lot ! (If you’re copying other wargames, at least copy the ones with well designed rules !)

Characters unlocking specific, thematically-appropriate units is definitely one of my favourite things about Conquest listbuilding, so I'm very happy to see it mimicked here. 

[Ookami]

Okay I can see that almost every faction will have pure-fighting, tactical, vanguard, fast-and-cavalry and monster battle formations just like in 40k. 

[Frodorowski]

It also reminds me partially Warmachine, where the selection of the general shaped the rest of the list and way of playing. What I'm curious about is if the hero selection will have any real impact on the way of playing, or they will be just plain vanilla heroes. For example, selecting a Vampire over a Wight king will allow you to play more recursion, or for example a necromance will provide more magic support/control? 

[Vasshpit]

@Ganigumo We'll have to wait and see but these are good points. 

[Luperci]

39 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Army Building changes in 4.0. Some pretty big changes, so worth giving the article a read.

Summary:

• Every army now comprises of 1+ Regiments.
• Regiments are led by a Hero, who can take up to 3 non-Hero Units (4 if the Hero is a General).
• Heroes have a list of what units can be in their Regiment (EG Alarith Stonemage can take ALARITH units and Vanari Auralan Wardens).
• Unique faction leaders can usually include any unit from their army.
• Some Heroes allow you to take additional Heroes in the Regiment ontop of that (EG Mighty Lord of Khorne can take GORECHOSEN Heroes)
• Units in a Regiment are deployed as a single drop.
• Most non-unique units can be reinforced "with more than one model" but double-reinforcing is gone.
• No limit on the number of units you can reinforce.
• Other 3.0 restrictions are gone.
• Battlefield Roles (EG Battleline, Behemoth) are gone.
• Auxiliary Units are units outside of a Regiment
• No limit on Auxiliaries, but they're each a single drop
• Player with the least Auxiliaries gets an extra Command Point
• Command Points are a "scarce resource in this edition."
• Sub-Factions are called Battle Formations
• Battle Formations focus on the fighting style rather than specific backgrounds (EG like the 40k Detachments do in 10th)
• Command Traits have become Heroic Traits, can be given to any Hero.

I actually really like this change for regiments and I'm looking forward to seeing the formations with cautious optimism. It's a shame to cut battlefield roles though 

[mojojojo101]

I'm cautiously positive about this so far, again need to see the full thing in action but I was worried they'd do something stupid like make army building more restrictive so we have to build 'proper' armies. This allows people to do that while still allowing me to do silly nonsense. Which I like.

-The new subfaction thing seems fairly pointless. They're selling it as a way to make your paint schemes less restrictive in 5 years of being part of the AoS community this has literally never been a problem. It's a problem in 40k. Not here. On the other hand, it makes unique characters potentially more attractive to take because they won't be keyword locked our of your army rules.

- I hope they don't do something silly like place restrictions on buffing or helping guys outside of each heroes regiment. I want my army to feel like one unified force, not just a collection of warbands who barely interact with one another.

-Didn't someone mention Regiments of Renown sticking around? If so, they just slide into this system extremely easily.

 

Also, fun thing I just noticed. There is 0 requirement to take any units at all outside of 1 hero.

Therefore, Nagash, by himself, is currently a perfectly viable 1000 pt list.

Edited April 3 by mojojojo101

[Gitzdee]

7 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

You can do what you want, 0 restrictions about list building but if you are more creative and respect the lore you will get real rewards.

Thats basicly like playing a grand alliance army vs using a tome. Its optional but in reality i have never seen it as u miss out on too much stuff.

I also feel like army building is like throwing a few regiments of renown together and calling it an army. I wonder how they are going to fix that i am forced to buy hero models. And how does this work with warcry/underworlds warbands?

[Luperci]

Just now, mojojojo101 said:

I'm cautiously positive about this so far, again need to see the full thing in action but I was worried they'd do something stupid like make army building more restrictive so we have to build 'proper' armies. This allows people to do that while still allowing me to do silly nonsense. Which I like.

-The new subfaction thing seems fairly pointless. They're selling it as a way to make your paint schemes less restrictive in 5 years of being part of the AoS community this has literally never been a problem. It's a problem in 40k. Not here. On the other hand, it makes unique characters potentially more attractive to take because they won't be keyword locked our of your army rules.

- I hope they don't do something silly like place restrictions on buffing or helping guys outside of each heroes regiment. I want my army to feel like one unified force, not just a collection of warbands who barely interact with one another.

 

Also, fun thing I just noticed. There is 0 requirement to take any units at all outside of 1 hero.

Therefore, Nagash, by himself, is currently a perfectly viable 1000 pt list.

It's only a problem in 40k because of space marines really too, I do think people made too much of a fuss about it over there though. It will have the same result, people will just pick the best subfaction traits for the models they own. Also yeah herohammer is back which isn't a bad thing necessarily, having limited leaders in 3rd has been one of my main problems with building lists at 1,000 points, I'll appreciate being able to take more

[Cataphract]

This reminds me of Conquest’s army building scheme. Each Hero has a Warband with a limited number of units they can take and from a specific unit pool of units (Spire Nobles can take Avatars and Elite stuff, Biomancers take drones and the bodyhorror monsters, etcetc).

[Ragest]

2 minutes ago, Gitzdee said:

i am forced to buy hero models.

Why? You just need one.

2 minutes ago, Gitzdee said:

And how does this work with warcry/underworlds warbands?

Auxiliaries I guess

[Gaz Taylor]

2 minutes ago, mojojojo101 said:

I hope they don't do something silly like place restrictions on buffing or helping guys outside of each heroes regiment. I want my army to feel like one unified force, not just a collection of warbands who barely interact with one another.

I can see this happening but I am assuming this is because the hero will only inspire their regiment. Largely depends on if aura effects are still in place or if characters can join units. 

[Sception]

Quote

Command points are a scarce resource in this edition. There isn’t a single warscroll or faction ability in the game that gives you additional points

Then I wonder how OBR will work.  Since their introduction getting extra command points (and extra commands to use them with) has been a defining mechanic for the faction, representing their supernatural discipline and the multiple lifetimes worth of leadership experience blended into their commanders.

We already knew every faction was getting re-imagined from the ground up, but for OBR especially whoever is tasked with their 4e index won't be able to draw much insight & inspiration from their previous mechanics.

Quote

You can reinforce most non-Unique units with more than one model, and while there is no longer any limit on the number of units you can reinforce, you may no longer double-reinforce units.

Probably necessary what with battleshock no longer being a thing, though I do hope some starting sizes get re-considered.  Skeleton Warriors, for instance, were always supposed to be pretty hoardy, so I hope their unit size goes up to 20 (matching their box size) instead of staying at 10.  Reinforcing them to 40 would be pretty crazy with their current rules, but I can't imagine their current recursion mechanics are going to make the transition into 4e.

...

from a fluffy/narrative perspective I like the idea of heroes bringing their own particular units, and of just associating units with particular heroes in general.  I wonder if we'll start to see rules for heroes, whether on their warscrolls or as 'heroic traits', that specifically affect units in their regiment, preferably without having to worry about ranges (especially 'wholly within' ranges).

Mechanically I'm not sure this system is a good idea.  People tend to need chaff in their armies, but a lot of players, especially new players, if left to their own devices will skip the little guy units that do 'boring' things like win you the game via scoring objectives, blocking out deep strikes, screening linchpin units from charges, tar pitting enemy hammers, absorbing 'unleash hell', & so on in favor of spamming big monsters and elite glass hammers that, without any chaff to support them, do 'fun and cool' things like hit hard then immediately die (or just die outright if you go first and just mindlessly push your stuff forward into a turn 2 double).  Battleline requirements seemed to be there to ~force~ players to eat their vegetables run some chaff with the idea that if players have to run these units regardless eventually they'll learn how to use them

Then again, there were so many exceptions letting you run monsters or elite stuff as battleline already that maybe removing the concept entirely doesn't matter.

[Ejecutor]

Quote

Other important aspects of army building are also sticking around, including Artefacts of Power and Heroic Traits – which used to be known as Command Traits** – as well as Spell Lores, Prayer Lores, and the shiny new Manifestation Lores… which we’ll have details on later.

Will we need "only" 2 years to resolve this?

[Luperci]

1 minute ago, Sception said:

Then I wonder how OBR will work.  Since their introduction getting extra command points (and extra commands to use them with) has been a defining mechanic for the faction, representing their supernatural discipline and the multiple lifetimes worth of leadership experience blended into their commanders.

I expect OBR will just have a special points system and separate list of commands to spend them on if they want to keep them different from command points. 

Ie. Generate one discipline point each turn or whatever, spend that on a discipline command as you would command points on regular commands

[The Lost Sigmarite]

16 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Characters unlocking specific, thematically-appropriate units is definitely one of my favourite things about Conquest listbuilding, so I'm very happy to see it mimicked here. 

Maybe they'll steal some more from Conquest. The fact that heroic traits can be given to any hero now makes me think there's gonna be a point cost to it, because if they're still free, giving multiple heroes traits could be very unbalanced. 

[Vagard]

Finally a decent amount of information in one post ! Thanks GW. Very happy to see that we will not see double reinforced units anymore and quite curious about the "thematics regiments" which will regroup units by their keywords.