The Rumour Thread

[Ejecutor]

3 minutes ago, Lavieth said:

Perhaps, and I could be wrong, but could it be that those kinds of skewed list might just not be fun to play against, especially in a casual game? I know from experience that I do not enjoy playing them, regardless of the result. As an opponent I don't find they make the game more engaging when playing against a list that leans so heavily into some janky mechanic. It's got nothing to do with my skill level as a player. 

This rhetoric about how someone must not be be good enough because their opponent is mean with "X" list really does need to be put to rest. Personally, I've stopped playing games with people like that because, to me, they are missing the point of Warhammer, in my opinion. It is a 2 person game and we as opponents are engaged in a social contract of sorts to make the experience fun for both people. Far too many warhammer players have adopted a MTG mental attitude about a game is only fun if you win at all costs and by any means necessary. 

By remembering that as an opponent you are responsible for half of the enjoyment level of the game it improves the entire experience. This requires the social intelligence to know what kind of game your opponent likes to play and working with them. Some people may get more enjoyment playing the game with a story in mind for their army and build into that restriction that makes it "less competitive" but it doesn't mean they are bad or less skilled players. Just that they have different motivations for playing. 

And don't you think there are some fun factors based on rules that were lost from WHFB?

I talked with a guy once who told me how a friend of his playing dwarfs got something exploding in the middle of his army,  cause he rolled 1s twice, and destroyed almost half of his army. Ofc a situation like this is not fun in the moment for those having such bad luck, but after some time is the classic memory you remember and laugh about (or even share with others like it was my case).

[Lavieth]

6 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

And don't you think there are some fun factors based on rules that were lost from WHFB?

I talked with a guy once who told me how a friend of his playing dwarfs got something exploding in the middle of his army,  cause he rolled 1s twice, and destroyed almost half of his army. Ofc a situation like this is not fun in the moment for those having such bad luck, but after some time is the classic memory you remember and laugh about (or even share with others like it was my case).

I do. It's one of the reasons I am looking forward to TOW. There was a simplicity in the complexity. For AoS I find it to be complexity in the simplicity, if that makes sense.

All of my memorable games are moments just like that or complete luck situations. My friends skaven were the worst engineers, and we started to joke about them needing dwarf costumes to learn how to build cannons. 

[Flippy]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Come on now. There are a lot of non-business reasons to be in favour of non-restrictive list building. I am saying this as someone who builds pretty much only combined arms lists.

There must be a lot of reasons, seeing how many users are against the restrictions. I would love to hear them though, because it usually comes down to "tank list is cool". And sure, why not? After all we play for fun.

Still, the introduction of proper composition rules (not the current battleline system, which does not accomplish anything) solves a lot of problems with unit design and both internal end external balance. You can grant a powerful ability for a 0-1 unit. You can make a unit stronger (for same price) then comparables from different factions - but also limit its availability. You can allow to bypass some limits as a faction trait. I think these are all pretty obvious pros.

And finally, this approach teaches new players on how the army is supposed to look and how the game is supposed to be played. I strongly believe that the reason why some skew-lists affect the meta so much is that a game is designed and balanced for a combined arms lists.    

[Flippy]

1 hour ago, Big Kim Woof-Woof said:

In my book, anyone who has painted up multiple units of Blissbarb Archers is perfectly entitled to use as many of them as they desire, because the damn things are fiddly as hell to paint! 

Plus there's no justification, from a background point of view, to limit the number of Blissbarbs; they're meant to be the lowest rank of Sybarite, not particularly experienced in battle, and largely used as arrow fodder. 

I know the pain, my close friend is a HoS player. Just put a limit on these damn models and people will be happy knowing that they only need to paint 22 at most. Problem solved.

As for the fluff... maybe they are meant to be the lowest rank of Sybarites, but in-game it's usually the other side that becomes the arrow fodder. Would you rather increase their point value till you reach the breaking point or introduce some limit on the number of units? With the second solution you can still use them, they still feel strong and fun - you just can't field a hundred, which doesn't bother me that much. 

[01rtb01]

As I said since the influence of tournaments on rules development seemed to ramp up with 8th Ed 40k and now is in abominable place, the casual suffers due to ridiculous skewing because of tournament impact.

There'll be those that say "but tournaments mean rules checked which means balance". Well, I'm yet to see that be the case. Having win rates as the main metric is an awful start point for analysis as there's way too many factors to be involved.

There's no wonder Jervis retired. I'm totally in agreement with Lavia above, games are for two people, both should get something out of it. If roflstomping.is people's thing they're welcome to it and I've zero desire to partake in that any more. Too long in the tooth and.gaming time is too precious to waste on "those sorts" of games.

[01rtb01]

1 hour ago, Big Kim Woof-Woof said:

In my book, anyone who has painted up multiple units of Blissbarb Archers is perfectly entitled to use as many of them as they desire, because the damn things are fiddly as hell to paint! 

Plus there's no justification, from a background point of view, to limit the number of Blissbarbs; they're meant to be the lowest rank of Sybarite, not particularly experienced in battle, and largely used as arrow fodder. 

Hideous to build as well. I grabbed 3 boxes when the first release dropped. It's taken years to build the army because the build process was so little fun. Painting will be a whole other level when it eventually happens.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

16 minutes ago, Flippy said:

There must be a lot of reasons, seeing how many users are against the restrictions. I would love to hear them though, because it usually comes down to "tank list is cool". And sure, why not? After all we play for fun.

Still, the introduction of proper composition rules (not the current battleline system, which does not accomplish anything) solves a lot of problems with unit design and both internal end external balance. You can grant a powerful ability for a 0-1 unit. You can make a unit stronger (for same price) then comparables from different factions - but also limit its availability. You can allow to bypass some limits as a faction trait. I think these are all pretty obvious pros.

And finally, this approach teaches new players on how the army is supposed to look and how the game is supposed to be played. I strongly believe that the reason why some skew-lists affect the meta so much is that a game is designed and balanced for a combined arms lists.    

I'll write up some reasons why I believe it, but you need to make a new thread for them first

[BarakUrbaz]

6 minutes ago, Flippy said:

 

As for the fluff... maybe they are meant to be the lowest rank of Sybarites, but in-game it's usually the other side that becomes the arrow fodder. Would you rather increase their point value till you reach the breaking point or introduce some limit on the number of units? With the second solution you can still use them, they still feel strong and fun - you just can't field a hundred, which doesn't bother me that much. 

So you're essentially saying army composition rules should have nothing to do with the fluff?

Say that something like Crypt Ghouls are overpowered. You'd be in favor of a limit on Crypt Ghouls even though lore-wise they're supposed to come in huge swarms and make up the vast bulk of a Flesh Eater kingdom. Instead of just nerfing Crypt Ghouls so they have the appropriate performance of what a horde battleline unit should be. 

[Grungnisson]

2 hours ago, Jagged Red Lines said:

Hard disagree, I think it's awesome that they've released every battletome and still have more than half a year before the next edition. That's an amazing feat, and something we should be grateful for.

There's nothing worse than having a new battletome and for it to be invalidated a month later when the game changes, like what happened in 40k.

At least with these dawnbringer books, they can fill in the remaining time until the next edition with model support and optional narrative rules for those who are interested. 

Crowding the release schedule throughout the edition will lead to delays in battletomes, and that would be an extremely bad thing for those factions that get pushed back.

I don't think I fully understand your argument here. Why would battletomes become invalidated, when, as you seem to cknowledge yourself further down your post, all we're talking about is 'optional narrative rules'.

Which is precisely, what I mean. Optional rules, like Regiments of Renown, in addition to battletomes, don't invalidate battletomes. They're additional, they don't replace anything.

Plus, instead of spending two years with hardly any advancement on the narrative, only to pick up the pace eight or nine months before the end of the edition, we could have a proper, spanning narrative giving some much needed context and background, evenly spread, at a digestible pace (we're looking at Dawnbringers books 5 and 6 being released so close together, they'd probably end up coming off the same month's wages...).

And not only that, imagine if those books offered battleplans for a narrative campaign, like the Thondia book did, but with a more grandeuse scope, leading you through the narrative of the whole edition. 

Also, I honestly don't see how releasing a narrative book once every six months equates to 'crowding the release schedule', but stuffing six books in the space of eight or so months, is perfectly fine for you.

[EntMan]

1 hour ago, Ejecutor said:

C'mon Dawnbringers short! We are waiting for you

What do you expect from today's short? I think it is time to see something about the Aqshyan side of the story. It is true that Ushoran is coming, but the last two were too focused on Ghyran and himself. It is time to move to Zenestra.

I'd love to hear more about those people who got turfed out of the Crusade because they started to worship Kurnoth. 

Or more about the Dwarf dude who lost his hands and started turning metal.

But doubt it'll be either of those.

[Grungnisson]

45 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

And don't you think there are some fun factors based on rules that were lost from WHFB?

I talked with a guy once who told me how a friend of his playing dwarfs got something exploding in the middle of his army,  cause he rolled 1s twice, and destroyed almost half of his army. Ofc a situation like this is not fun in the moment for those having such bad luck, but after some time is the classic memory you remember and laugh about (or even share with others like it was my case).

I think this is a major factor contributing to the popularity of Gitz and the Skaven. These two factions retained by far the most of the Oldhammer wackyness and humour and it is something that the AoS is painfully lacking.

[Beliman]

31 minutes ago, Lavieth said:

I do. It's one of the reasons I am looking forward to TOW. There was a simplicity in the complexity. For AoS I find it to be complexity in the simplicity, if that makes sense.

That has a lot of sense to me.

[madmac]

10 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

I don’t remember there being anything about the Ghyran crusade failing or succeeding in the lore video? 

The preview for Book 5 says that the Ghyran crusade is rescued by the new DoK character, so they do not appear to be out of the running yet.

[Ejecutor]

1 minute ago, madmac said:

The preview for Book 5 says that the Ghyran crusade is rescued by the new DoK character, so they do not appear to be out of the running yet.

I doubt we would see their ending before the 6th book.

[Ragest]

17 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

anyone who had multiple are gonna be left with pretty useless models

If anyone has more than one unit of them, is because they know they are unbalanced, and if they are unbalanced gw will nerf them.

[Lucentia]

I don't think it's quite as clear cut as 'skew lists = win at all costs mindset = bad.'  In the previous Cities book you could also run a steam tank spam list, but it was not especially competitive on tournament rankings, so it was more of a novelty that some players enjoyed rolling around with.  Granted, perhaps this is crossing wires between skew lists and spam lists, which are not necessarily the same thing.

I'm not against experimenting with alternative methods of list construction, certainly, but I do not think that will actually remove skew lists from play, it would just change what a skew list is under the new format, it's not as if WHFB didn't have cheesy lists aplenty! 

For what it's worth I personally think a rules based approach to disincentivising spam lists is the best option, if Blissbarbs are supposed to be ranged battleline chumps, lower their damage output, if steamtanks are going to be allowed as the core of a list, they probably shouldn't have a 2+ base save, or they will need to cost more, etc.

[Ragest]

Add heroes into units to buff just them, that will control the spam.

[dmorley21]

32 minutes ago, 01rtb01 said:

As I said since the influence of tournaments on rules development seemed to ramp up with 8th Ed 40k and now is in abominable place, the casual suffers due to ridiculous skewing because of tournament impact.

There'll be those that say "but tournaments mean rules checked which means balance". Well, I'm yet to see that be the case. Having win rates as the main metric is an awful start point for analysis as there's way too many factors to be involved.

There's no wonder Jervis retired. I'm totally in agreement with Lavia above, games are for two people, both should get something out of it. If roflstomping.is people's thing they're welcome to it and I've zero desire to partake in that any more. Too long in the tooth and.gaming time is too precious to waste on "those sorts" of games.

People generally retire - most people don’t work their entire lives. No reason to read anything into it. 
 

They make it pretty clear that they don’t just look at win rates in the video - sadly the articles don’t have much info but the videos do. One thing I do know they look at is army composition - they really try to find internal balance in books so more units in a book are taken. I think that’s a worthwhile endeavor.

I’ve talked to some of the guys - there’s a lot more nuance than just looking at win rates. I hate to see hard work done in good faith be critiqued by people who don’t have all the information. 

[Clan's Cynic]

Another Dawnbringer Chronicle, this time, Skaven.

Quote

 

Warlock Engineer Katchrikk embarks on a mission of revenge against his arch-rival Queelum in this week’s Dawnbringer Chronicles, but the daemons of the Horned Rat have a better use in mind for two ambitious and capable Warlocks…

 

Maybe a heavily armoured Warlock model will be coming with Dawnbringers?

"Then a thud echoed. Katchrikk’s glee choked. Another heavy impact saw the smoke ripple. A hulking shape stomped into view at the lip of the spire’s savaged gash – a figure entombed in a walking, gun-studded coffin of green-tinged metal.

"A keening, whirring din rang out. Ignoring Zzzit’s scream, Katchrikk raced to arm the spare warhead, as the generator mounted to Queelum’s armour roared  – providing him the strength needed for the other Warlock to heft a ratling gun single-handedly, its barrels whirring and keening to life."

Edited January 26 by Clan's Cynic

[Starfyre]

3 hours ago, Flippy said:

Yes, I agree. This is the only justification and it is also obviously a purely business-driven one.

Command corps 0-1.

Blissbarb Archers 0-2 base size units for each 1000 pts. This is already generous.

All sharks... 🙄 Sharks 0-2 for each 1000 pts. Maybe more for Fuethan sub-faction.

I do actually agree the command corps should be 0-1, because it’s a unit of heroes basically. But I have no issue with it not being.

Blissbarbs are just slaaneshi Chaos marauders with bows, so I’m fine with ravening packs of them. 

Sharks… I just think it is funny.

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++

Poke Poke back to rumours please. If you want to discuss anything else, create a new topic for it  

[Ejecutor]

11 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Another Dawnbringer Chronicle, this time, Skaven.

Maybe a heavily armoured Warlock model will be coming with Dawnbringers?

"Then a thud echoed. Katchrikk’s glee choked. Another heavy impact saw the smoke ripple. A hulking shape stomped into view at the lip of the spire’s savaged gash – a figure entombed in a walking, gun-studded coffin of green-tinged metal.

"A keening, whirring din rang out. Ignoring Zzzit’s scream, Katchrikk raced to arm the spare warhead, as the generator mounted to Queelum’s armour roared  – providing him the strength needed for the other Warlock to heft a ratling gun single-handedly, its barrels whirring and keening to life."

Raaaaaaattttss! 

[cyrus]

12 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Another Dawnbringer Chronicle, this time, Skaven.

Maybe a heavily armoured Warlock model will be coming with Dawnbringers?

"Then a thud echoed. Katchrikk’s glee choked. Another heavy impact saw the smoke ripple. A hulking shape stomped into view at the lip of the spire’s savaged gash – a figure entombed in a walking, gun-studded coffin of green-tinged metal.

"A keening, whirring din rang out. Ignoring Zzzit’s scream, Katchrikk raced to arm the spare warhead, as the generator mounted to Queelum’s armour roared  – providing him the strength needed for the other Warlock to heft a ratling gun single-handedly, its barrels whirring and keening to life."

I think it is the current AOS model 

 

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

20 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Another Dawnbringer Chronicle, this time, Skaven.

Maybe a heavily armoured Warlock model will be coming with Dawnbringers?

"Then a thud echoed. Katchrikk’s glee choked. Another heavy impact saw the smoke ripple. A hulking shape stomped into view at the lip of the spire’s savaged gash – a figure entombed in a walking, gun-studded coffin of green-tinged metal.

"A keening, whirring din rang out. Ignoring Zzzit’s scream, Katchrikk raced to arm the spare warhead, as the generator mounted to Queelum’s armour roared  – providing him the strength needed for the other Warlock to heft a ratling gun single-handedly, its barrels whirring and keening to life."

All I will say about it is: AoS is definitely the kind of setting in which Skaven should have warpstone-powered mech suits.

[Flippy]

48 minutes ago, BarakUrbaz said:

So you're essentially saying army composition rules should have nothing to do with the fluff?

Say that something like Crypt Ghouls are overpowered. You'd be in favor of a limit on Crypt Ghouls even though lore-wise they're supposed to come in huge swarms and make up the vast bulk of a Flesh Eater kingdom. Instead of just nerfing Crypt Ghouls so they have the appropriate performance of what a horde battleline unit should be. 

I would be in favour of nerfing them, that's a natural solution. A limit is just an additional lever you can pull, if needed - on top of the current options (warscroll power & point value). What I meant with regard to Blissbarb Archers is that even though they are supposed to be a basic unit (fluff), they are in fact an elite shooting option (in-game). If, for any reason, you are not willing to nerf them, you can currently only increase their value.