The Rumour Thread

[Satyrical Sophist]

13 minutes ago, Chikout said:

Why are you using this data? It says July at the top of the page and it lists number of wins not percentage of wins. The faction with the most 5-0s is not necessarily the best faction. According to Woehammer who seem to have the most up to date stats, Khorne are currently at a perfectly reasonable 52% Win rate. That's pretty close to perfect. Soulblight are on their second round of nerds after round one didn't do enough which is probably why we are seeing a bigger change this time. OBR have seen their strongest build hit but we'll have to see how that turns out. 

Generally I think this is a solid update. It hits some shenanigans like the incarnate and teleporting blizzards but that might not prove to be enough. 

The most common complaint I'm seeing is that Seraphon escaped without any changes though that seems to be more of an NPE problem than a power problem. 

Doko has strong feelings about data and their own feelings on which data to use.  That data also doesn't seem to include how many players of each faction are playing. Lumineth is only down there for 3 5-0 and 4 4-1 and is put mid tables. If there were only 7 lumineth players that would be an 83% win rate. Equally if there are 100 lumineth players who won no other games then it's a 6% winrate. We just don't have any information. If you want to use 5-0/4-1 you need to have information about faction play rates.

 

I was surprised how much seraphon dodged in this update, but I think a decent part of that was that they nerfed the rupture incarnate combo that Seraphon and Tzeench were using, so I kind of get being cautious.

 

[Flippy]

18 minutes ago, Chikout said:

The most common complaint I'm seeing is that Seraphon escaped without any changes though that seems to be more of an NPE problem than a power problem. 

Isn't the Incarnate / Rupture change directly aimed at Seraphon? Last time I checked this was the prevalent build.

As for the OBR, the change of Stalkers / Guards resurrection is huge.

[Doko]

40 minutes ago, Chikout said:

Why are you using this data? It says July at the top of the page

is spanish,but says since july(when general handbook was released) untill now

[Kitsumy]

9 minutes ago, Flippy said:

Isn't the Incarnate / Rupture change directly aimed at Seraphon? Last time I checked this was the prevalent build.

As for the OBR, the change of Stalkers / Guards resurrection is huge.

yes, i dont know where those claims about serahon avoiding the bullets comes from, in reality they were the most heavy hit of those changes.

seraphon is a reeally bad written book as i allready claimed on a first glimpse of book, full of totally useless and non sense rules, with everything absurdy overcosted and way too low dmg. but kroak and starborn mortal bomb is cloose to be op.

everyone hates seraphon for no reason, and kroak gameplay sucks i hate play that as seraphon and playing against, but isnt op for sure.

 

actual numbers are something like under 38% winrate for coalesced side.

around 52% for kroak lists

and like 65% to incarnate kroak list. 

and last one was totally deleted this update. leaving actual kroak list balanced, and every other list still unplayable. i hoped for bigger nerfs to kroak( despite him being balanced, but since his gameplay sucks, go ahead and nerf him to make haters happy) but also big coalesced buffs, rules change not only huge points decreases

you can read about seraphon situation here, they say mostly the same, isnt only me

https://woehammer.com/2023/09/14/tome-talks-seraphon/?amp=1

 

and yes, dont understand this update, they deleted kroak incarnate combo, vampire blizzard exploit, and inmortis spam build.

but dont actually changed much. vampires will remain strong( despite worse than now), idoneth skaven and stormcast will remain on lowest-mid posittions. seraphons will only use same list without any change only droping incarnate, and bonereapers will free reignt unstopables since they wasn really hit while the others top armyes got hit. khorne will go up too for sure.

 

 

[Ganigumo]

46 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

So due to one Nagash combo and someone who spikes Spirit Gale everything had to be kicked into the dust. I hate it.

The VloZD was questionable at his first point value, only LoB abused it a lot. Awesome he‘s now even worse fir every other faction.

the same goes for zombies - simply prohibit two reinforcements.

It‘s such a big pile of bs, every single change.

I don’t care about too tables or netlisters I care due to this nonsense making my fun games way less enjoyable.

 

Zombies weren't only problematic in 60's, 120 points for 2 screens that splash back mortals is absolutely crazy value, even if you're only getting the 20 bodies. They make even stuff like clanrats & horrors look inefficient.
Grots are close at 120 points, since they also come back, but are way more limited in where and when they come back, and you only get one attempt at it each battle round unless you take a specific command trait. The 6-7 mortals to come out of a unit of zombies outdo what the grots would put out, and don't even require them to fight.
A bunch of people said 150 was probably in the right point range as soon as the book came out too, and I think I agree.

Ultimately the summonable stuff just wasn't pointed anywhere near correct. Some of it felt like it was pointed like the stuff couldn't come back at all. There's still some weirdness around the points but maybe that can get fixed once the army is reined in a bit. Like dire wolves being the same points a zombies seems pretty silly, zombies are still going to be the go-to option, but I guess wolves were more expensive than zombies before now.

It kind of sucks to see armies get hit so hard though, Gitz largely went through it too, though not as bad. Books that cooked just shouldn't get into the players hands, and a ton of the stuff that was out of line was immediately apparent it was broken, its not like some weird edge case or skew lists that were broken, it was the fundamentals that were largely overcooked.

 

 

1 minute ago, Kitsumy said:

yes, i dont know where those claims about serahon avoiding the bullets comes from, in reality they were the most heavy hit of those changes.

seraphon is a reeally bad written book as i allready claimed on a first glimpse of book, full of totally useless and non sense rules, with everything absurdy overcosted and way too low dmg. but kroak and starborn mortal bomb is cloose to be op.

everyone hates seraphon for no reason, and kroak gameplay sucks i hate play that as seraphon and playing against, but isnt op for sure.

 

actual numbers are something like under 38% winrate for coalesced side.

around 52% for kroak lists

and like 65% to incarnate kroak list. 

and last one was totally deleted this update. leaving actual kroak list balanced, and every other list still unplayable. i hoped for bigger nerfs to kroak( despite him being balanced, but since his gameplay sucks, go ahead and nerf him to make haters happy) but also big coalesced buffs, rules change not only huge points decreases

you can read about seraphon situation here, they say mostly the same, isnt only me

https://woehammer.com/2023/09/14/tome-talks-seraphon/?amp=1

 

and yes, dont understand this update, they deleted kroak incarnate combo, vampire blizzard exploit, and inmortis spam build.

but dont actually changed much. vampires will remain strong( despite worse than now), idoneth skaven and stormcast will remain on lowest-mid posittions. seraphons will only use same list without any change only droping incarnate, and bonereapers will free reignt unstopables since they wasn really hit while the others top armyes got hit. khorne will go up too for sure.

 

 

People hate seraphon because kroaknado/starborn/aoe mortal wound spam stuff dominated the meta for like 2-3 years, and now that seraphon have a new book they're back to the same top tier playstyles. Its not really a fun list to play against.

Coalesced is a much fairer army build, but yeah it seems pretty undertuned. -1 damage armywide is just a really questionable rule, since it gives you super polarizing matchups. VS something like gutbusters or Ironjawz you negate half their damage for free, but against something that does a lot of damage 1 like lumineth or nighthaunt it does nothing, so its impossible to point that ability appropriately. Its fine if its used sparingly and in a limited manner, like the nighthaunt hero that does it, since the value is built into his points, but its basically impossible to balance as an army rule.

[Sception]

I mean, they couldn't just nerf one or two things for soulblight, that book is a hundred units deep with half a dozen completely different builds all overperforming in the competitive space.  They may have over-nerfed some things (goodbye spirit gale), but the idea that they could have fixed the soulblight problem with nerfs to just one or two units just isn't realistic at all.

As for OBR not getting hit enough, that's the opposite approach because it's the opposite problem, where there's just one good list consisting of just a handful of units and the rest of the faction might as well not exist currently.  Like, are you really upset they lowered the price of their war machine?  When was the last time you faced a Mortek Crawler and actually had to care what it did?  Yeah, the faction saw more points decreases than increases, but the decreases are on units that almost never see play and do not see good results when they do, while the hefty points increase to katakros in particular hits almost every competitive bonereaper army.  Meanwhile the recursion change is a huge nerf to the faction's biggest problem unit that the bulk of lists rely on as their backbone, likely translating to 15 to 20 wounds less of immortis guard for opponents to have to chew through per game, maybe more, and while a points increase forcing players to drop another unit of them might have achieved more or less the same result, preventing OBR armies from potentially bringing back like 4 of them in a single turn is a bigger win for quality of life, imo.

You can argue they maybe should have gone harder on the points increase to deathriders, or that they should have nerfed the Null Myriad subfaction bonus, I could agree with either of those.  but other than that I don't know what else you could have wanted to see in terms of OBR nerfs.  Maybe a reduction to their extra command points?  But the units that are overplayed, the ones driving OBR's unreasonable win rates, are already the most command point efficient units, the stuff in the army that would be least affected by that.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Sception

[Ganigumo]

1 minute ago, Sception said:

I mean, they couldn't just nerf one or two things for soulblight, that book is a hundred units deep with half a dozen completely different builds all overperforming in the competitive spays.  They may have over-nerfed some things (goodbye spirit gale), but the idea that they could have fixed the soulblight problem with nerfs to just one or two units just isn't realistic at all.

As for OBR not getting hit enough, that's the opposite approach because it's the opposite problem, where there's just one good list consisting of just a handful of units and the rest of the faction might as well not exist currently.  Like, are you really upset they lowered the price of their war machine?  When was the last time you faced a Mortek Crawler and actually had to care what it did?  Yeah, the faction saw more points decreases than increases, but the decreases are on units that almost never see play and do not see good results when they do, while the hefty points increase to katakros in particular hits almost every competitive bonereaper army.  Meanwhile the recursion change is a huge nerf to the faction's biggest problem unit that the bulk of lists rely on as their backbone, likely translating to 15 to 20 wounds less of immortis guard for opponents to have to chew through per game, maybe more, and while a points increase forcing players to drop another unit of them might have achieved more or less the same result, preventing OBR armies from potentially bringing back.

You can argue they maybe should have gone harder on the points increase to deathriders, or that they should have nerfed the Null Myriad subfaction bonus, I could agree with either of those.  but other than that I don't know what else you could have wanted to see in terms of OBR nerfs.  Maybe a reduction to their extra command points?  But the units that are overplayed, the ones driving OBR's unreasonable win rates, are already the most command point efficient units, the stuff in the army that would be least affected by that.

There's a non-zero chance the OBR book is unsalvageable without significant rewrites, sort of like a reverse kruleboyz where the rules are just too strong, and trying to point things better just makes the army unplayable. We'll see over time I guess though.

Null myriad isn't that much of a problem IMO. Its just an anti-meta pick at the moment, but the new look out sir rules make it worse since you can't shoot the hero that turns the spell negate on.

[Doko]

1 hour ago, Chikout said:

Why are you using this data? It says July at the top of the page and it lists number of wins not percentage of wins. The faction with the most 5-0s is not necessarily the best faction. According to Woehammer who seem to have the most up to date stats, Khorne are currently at a perfectly reasonable 52% Win rate. That's pretty close to perfect. Soulblight are on their second round of nerds after round one didn't do enough which is probably why we are seeing a bigger change this time. OBR have seen their strongest build hit but we'll have to see how that turns out. 

Generally I think this is a solid update. It hits some shenanigans like the incarnate and teleporting blizzards but that might not prove to be enough. 

The most common complaint I'm seeing is that Seraphon escaped without any changes though that seems to be more of an NPE problem than a power problem. 

even if we get the win rate of woehammer as you said,idoneth have 48 win rate and fyreslayers also have 48 win rate.

idoneths got reduction in points across the board and even a buff in rules while fyreslayers got 0,0000 buffs.

so dont make sense from win rate or tournaments wins point of view

[The Borumancer]

I politely ask if you could move this conversation to its own thread before it scales to a metachasing verbiage with passive aggresive reactions...

This is the Rumour Thread and I think it's no the appropiate thread to talk about data, numbers, and competitive so long.

Moving on to other issues... wow, what a week! Every day was an AoS party and this weekend we will have the first previews of Reign of Brute! Will we have some hints of the narrative of the next book? What do you think?

[Satyrical Sophist]

6 minutes ago, Doko said:

even if we get the win rate of woehammer as you said,idoneth have 48 win rate and fyreslayers also have 48 win rate.

idoneths got reduction in points across the board and even a buff in rules while fyreslayers got 0,0000 buffs.

so dont make sense from win rate or tournaments wins point of view

Their own numbers have fyreslayers outperforming Idoneth, so that's what they buffed. It makes perfect sense for them. You can argue that their own numbers might not be as accurate as woehammers, but those are the numbers that they are going to use, it doesn't make no sense.

 

My understanding is that GW metawatch uses more small tournaments than Woehammer or Honest Wargamer, with more of a casual focus. I can definitely see something like Fyreslayers doing better in casual games than Deepkin.

 

Edit: was typing while request to move was posted, my apologies. One thing that is confusing me rumours wise is just what is happening with warcry. It's been a few months since we saw the Kruleboys warband, and we have now seen a total of 4 warbands spoiled with nothing out in what feels like ages. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Satyrical Sophist

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

What is your fun list Jack? How many points did you go up? 

I went up by ~ 200 pts but I don’t play a single list I usually try mixed arms and Subfactions (Vyrkos, LoN mostly).

usually 2x20 Skellies, 2x 10 Wolves, 1-2x 20 Zombies / 20 Grave Guard and some Blood Knights. To round it off a power pair of Black Knights + Wight on Steed, a Vengo or a ZD and 1-2 Vamp lords. Depending on left over points a Necromancer + Corpse cart or some Fell Bats.

I intentionally tried to stay as far away from tournament list cheese as possible.

Since most of my games were really tight wins or loses I know how these games will play out now. These bs changes FORCE me to build freaking Tournament Lists to not be wiped off the table.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Mutton]

Soulblight got what it deserved. Playing against them has been pure misery.

[CommissarRotke]

6 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Metawatch time.

Battlescroll PDF.

you sure this isn't from 2022? because the Stormcast reductions feel EXACTLY the same 🤪 come on GW...

[Sception]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

There's a non-zero chance the OBR book is unsalvageable without significant rewrites, sort of like a reverse kruleboyz where the rules are just too strong, and trying to point things better just makes the army unplayable. We'll see over time I guess though.

Null myriad isn't that much of a problem IMO. Its just an anti-meta pick at the moment, but the new look out sir rules make it worse since you can't shoot the hero that turns the spell negate on.

Are the OBR rules too strong, or are Katakros + Boneshaper + Deathriders + Immortis too strong?  Because you never see harvesters, you never see mortek guard, you never see mortek crawlers, you rarely see stalkers or morghasts...  Like, if this change finally breaks the back of Immortis Guard and everyone shifts to the previously untouchable Mortek Guard and we see the same win rates, then I might believe OBR as a faction are OP as opposed to having a couple OP units.

I'm much more open to the idea that Soulblight are Just OP as a faction and need a ground up design rethink, because there it really did seem like the whole faction was OP.  You saw zombie spam, you saw glass cannon grave guard, you saw heavy cav bloodknight spam, their named characters saw play, their little heroes saw play, their wolves saw play, all of their subfactions saw play, heck, even monster mash avengori with unridden dragons and gheists saw play, and their win rates were problematically high across the full spectrum.  When people are winning too much no matter what units they take from a faction with one of the largest selections to choose from, to me that speaks more of there being a fundamental problem with the faction's overall design.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Sception

[El Syf]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

So due to one Nagash combo and someone who spikes Spirit Gale everything had to be kicked into the dust. I hate it.

The VloZD was questionable at his first point value, only LoB abused it a lot. Awesome he‘s now even worse fir every other faction.

the same goes for zombies - simply prohibit two reinforcements.

It‘s such a big pile of bs, every single change.

I don’t care about too tables or netlisters I care due to this nonsense making my fun games way less enjoyable.

 

Seconded. Outside of taking Nagash for pretty much half an army’s worth of points I fail to see how spirit gale was that problematic. Let’s not forget Gotrek still exists and every experience I’ve had of him has been npe even when just trying to stay out of his way. Nagash is also reasonably easy to kill. I’ve done it with Vhordrai in every edition without too much trouble. 

[JackStreicher]

23 minutes ago, Sception said:

saw heavy cav bloodknight spam, their named characters saw play, their little heroes saw play, their wolves saw play, all of their subfactions saw play, heck, even monster mash avengori with unridden dragons and gheists saw play

🤨
That was the last battletome and the win rates were average for monsters?

This Edition SBGL had zombie spam, ethereal abuse, and now the magic gimmick due to a pretty stupid GHB that boosts magic bombs way too much.

Edited September 14, 2023 by JackStreicher

[RyantheFett]

Those two death books may suffer from the same thing happening to 40k Eldar. They are soooooo good and have so many options that GW will just have to keep on smacking them down every change until we make it to 4th edition.

Not sure how GW let some of that stuff get thought testing......

[Ejecutor]

When do you feel guys we would see those leaked FEC sprues being showed properly? Any rumour about it?

[El Syf]

6 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

When do you feel guys we would see those leaked FEC sprues being showed properly? Any rumour about it?

May have been a massive blunder and is meant to be the Xmas surprise. That is just wild guessing though.

[EntMan]

9 minutes ago, El Syf said:

May have been a massive blunder and is meant to be the Xmas surprise. That is just wild guessing though.

This Christmas hamper looking thing is my bet for a festive suprise:

[Vasshpit]

Has this been mentioned yet? They do some absolutely outstanding sculptures and now warhammer is being added to the roster!?

I wonder if this will tie into the SE and Kruleboyz commemorative models that were accidentally sold at Warhammer Fest or if they'll be handling Henry's 40k

@Trugg the Troggoth King Sometimes you just have to ride the "Rumors" and -not general chat- thread out. Heh. 

No one said anything when the 5-6 pages of I want kurnothi were happening recently. 🤣🤪

Edited September 14, 2023 by Vasshpit

[Greene]

10 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

When do you feel guys we would see those leaked FEC sprues being showed properly? Any rumour about it?

I guess we can see those sprue in army box on Warhammer Day, any bring to home on later November, then full release on January 2024, just like STD last year.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Greene

[Matrindur]

6 minutes ago, Greene said:

I guess we can see those sprue in army box on Warhammer Day, any bring to home on later November, then full release on January 2024, just like STD last year.

I completely forgot about Warhammer day. This means we might get a reveal show for every month left this year.

October would be Warhammer day, last year they also had one for the US Open finale in November and at the end of December we should get the looking forward to 2024 previews.

[Grungnisson]

I'm also beginning to wonder, whether we'll see any battletomes' updates before the Fourth Edition drops next year. Once the FEC is done we'll have all armies updated to Third, but there are books from the beginning of the cycle that have now been lagging behind for a while (*cough <Stormcast> *cough) plus, with the new edition presumably to start in the summer next year, that'll potentially mean about half a year period thet will need to be filled with... stuff?

We're still to see other mini-expansions to come out of Dawnbringers, of course, but how about actual battletome updates? Why not Fyreslayers, for example? Is the Warcry expansion the end of love for a while now?

[The Lost Sigmarite]

After FEC there's only room left for one BT before 4th drops. Chorfs ! 

It's Chorfin time