The Rumour Thread

[Doko]

20 minutes ago, Mutton said:

That Magmadroth breath attack is bad. You have to wait a full turn of not shooting for it to gain any kind of killing power. It's max attacks is 10 for some reason? 3+ to wound is going to suck, and that degrading to-hit is brutal.

Just so everyone realizes, at maximum power and potential (rend -3, 2+/3+, 10 attacks) the fire breath will do on average 5 damage to 4+ saves. That's pitiful for how much you have to work for it and hope you don't get bracketed. I'd rather have the D6 mortals every turn.

Yes old breath was better in every situation.

Oberwath old breath were d6 mortals and at 6" also d6 mortals. And at 12" was d3 mortals.

New breath is useless at overwatch and even at the best scenario of 10 models is 5 damage rend1 that is worse than the old 3'5 mortal

Old breath:

-at overwatch or 6" are 3'5 mortals against 6 models

-at 12" are 2 mortals against 6 models

New breath:

-at 9" and against 6 models is 3 damage rend 1(max rangue and same models than old breath)

-at 9" and the max of 10 models is 5 rend 1 damage

 

So even at the best scenario posible for new breath we are getting only 5 remd 1 damage that is so much worse than old 2\3'5 mortals against 6 models

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Doko

[Beliman]

7 minutes ago, Doko said:

Ok to provide actual data(btw freeguild general have save 4+1 that is 3)

Idk:turtles save2,eidolons save 3 and 5++

Ironjawz:maw krushas save 3

Vampires:vengolorian lords and vampire on zombie dragon save 3 and 6++

Stormcast: celestant in stardrake,new dragons and new twin dragons save 3

City of sigmar:black dragon and gryfons with shield save 3

Kharadron:ironclad save 3

I could continue but is easy see how almost every non mague monster have save 3 or save 4 with special save or ward after. It is almost imposible find one melle monsterheroe with a save of 4 and nothing extra(i think only trex of seraphons but they reduce damage in 1 so.....)

Wtf?

1. You said: 

   Quote

   when every actual monster have save3

2. @Marcvs said that you are wrong and proved that there are monsters with worst save, and he only pointed a few because there are a lot more with 4+ save or even worst, 5+ saves.

Conclusion: doesn't matter if there are 3+ monsters (btw, Ironclad is not a monster), the point is that new monsters (SCE, Kruleboyz, Maggotkin...) are NOT 3+ as you said.

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Beliman

[Marcvs]

7 minutes ago, Doko said:

Ok to provide actual data(btw freeguild general have save 4+1 that is 3)

Idk:turtles save2,eidolons save 3 and 5++

Ironjawz:maw krushas save 3

Vampires:vengolorian lords and vampire on zombie dragon save 3 and 6++

Stormcast: celestant in stardrake,new dragons and new twin dragons save 3

City of sigmar:black dragon and gryfons with shield save 3

Kharadron:ironclad save 3

I could continue but is easy see how almost every non mague monster have save 3 or save 4 with special save or ward after. It is almost imposible find one melle monsterheroe with a save of 4 and nothing extra(i think only trex of seraphons but they reduce damage in 1 so.....)

in addition to what @Beliman said, it is worth adding that saying that monsters with 4+ save and a shield which provides a +1 have a 3+ save is like saying that EVERY unit with a 4+ has a 3+ save cause they can use all out defense. The difference is pretty important, since a 4+ can never get to 2+ save, so no, general on griffon and dreadlord on black dragon do not have a 3+ save. They wish they had it, in fact. For what we know, magmadroths could have a rule for +1 save or a ward as well 🤷‍♂️

[Voltek]

2 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Wtf?

1. You said: 
2. @Marcvs said that you are wrong and proved that there are monsters with worst save, and he only pointed a few because there are a lot more with 4+ save or even worst, 5+ saves.

Conclusion: doesn't matter if there are 3+ monsters (btw, Ironclad is not a monster), the point is that new monsters (SCE, Kruleboyz, Maggotkin...) are NOT 3+ as you said.

 

Stormdrake Guard?

[Iamanbo]

10 minutes ago, Doko said:

Ok to provide actual data(btw freeguild general have save 4+1 that is 3)

Idk:turtles save2,eidolons save 3 and 5++

Ironjawz:maw krushas save 3

Vampires:vengolorian lords and vampire on zombie dragon save 3 and 6++

Stormcast: celestant in stardrake,new dragons and new twin dragons save 3

City of sigmar:black dragon and gryfons with shield save 3

Kharadron:ironclad save 3

I could continue but is easy see how almost every non mague monster have save 3 or save 4 with special save or ward after. It is almost imposible find one melle monsterheroe with a save of 4 and nothing extra(i think only trex of seraphons but they reduce damage in 1 so.....)

Stonehorn 4+ 5++

[pnkdth]

13 minutes ago, Mutton said:

That Magmadroth breath attack is bad. You have to wait a full turn of not shooting for it to gain any kind of killing power. It's max attacks is 10 for some reason, and adds up per model--so useless against heroes or small units, which is most of the game right now. 3+ to wound is going to suck, and that degrading to-hit is brutal.

Just so everyone realizes, at maximum power and potential (rend -3, 2+/3+, 10 attacks) the fire breath will do on average 5 damage to 4+ saves. That's pitiful for how much you have to work for it and hope you don't get bracketed. I'd rather have the D6 mortals every turn.

At this point I'm hoping the melee profile is worth it + the rider types add some extra cool flavour to each droth.

[Fyrenn]

30 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

ok, to provide further clarification in light of the "confused face" reaction. Monters with 4+ or worse save characteristic out of the top of my head (mostly I know order stuff): drakesworn templar, freeguild general and battlemage on griffon, dreadlord or sorceress on black dragon, skink and saurus heroes on monster mounts, Morathi, all the gargants, and the list probably goes on and on

All BoC stuff.

[Marcvs]

4 minutes ago, Iamanbo said:

Stonehorn 4+ 5++

so another monster who doesn't confirm the statement "every actual monster have save3"

[Voltek]

I think the Magmadroth and Fyreslayers on a whole will really change opinion wise depending on what the Forge, prayers, banner, 

Abilities do as those auras etc are kind of what made the army the army and with save stacking on Fyreslayers specifically not being as good I imagine the stuff that handed our +1 saves post faq will probably have maybe new abilities.

[Enoby]

18 minutes ago, Doko said:

Ok to provide actual data(btw freeguild general have save 4+1 that is 3)

4+1 is considerably different to a base 3, and considerably worse. The biggest difference is that your best possible save is a roll of a 3+ on a 4+1, but it's a 2+ on a base 3. 

Nearly every 4+ save monster can get a 4+1 save from either finest hour (if a hero), all out defence, mystic shield, or any of the other ways a faction may provide a save bonus. A Freeguild General on Griffon just gets that easy +1 for free, so the advantage is small.

[madmac]

4 minutes ago, Enoby said:

4+1 is considerably different to a base 3, and considerably worse. The biggest difference is that your best possible save is a roll of a 3+ on a 4+1, but it's a 2+ on a base 3. 

Nearly every 4+ save monster can get a 4+1 save from either finest hour (if a hero), all out defence, mystic shield, or any of the other ways a faction may provide a save bonus. A Freeguild General on Griffon just gets that easy +1 for free, so the advantage is small.

To be fair though, this is just a battletome transition issue. As units with shields granting+1 save get updated with new warscrolls, they've been reliably getting bumped to just having a better base save, as they should. It was a meaningless distinction in 2E because there were no limits on save stacking, now it's something that GW should honestly have already addressed for all armies using errata.

[Enoby]

1 minute ago, madmac said:

To be fair though, this is just a battletome transition issue. As units with shields granting+1 save get updated with new warscrolls, they've been reliably getting bumped to just having a better base save, as they should. It was a meaningless distinction in 2E because there were no limits on save stacking, now it's something that GW should honestly have already addressed for all armies using errata.

Personally I'd prefer it if it went the other way, and any "3+ with a shield" monsters became "4+1s" instead. I do agree that GW is going the other way, but at the same time, I think a 3+ save makes some very deadly monsters too tanky. Partially this is also because there is very little that would ever be worth missing out on a 3+ save (but a 4+1 is less good so it's more of a choice), but it's mostly because a 2+ ignoring 1 rend Mawkrusha is just too much hassle for any casual list to deal with. 

I'm one of the people who'd like AoS to become more toned down in damage, but I don't think the best way to do that is give 3+ saves on the most deadly of units. If Chaos Warriors had a 3+ save, they'd be totally fine as they do like 2 damage average a turn, so they can be a tank without being good at everything.

This is very off topic now, but it has made me think about monster saves.

[Aztok]

On 2/20/2022 at 2:38 PM, Aztok said:

Can I speculate? I'd be surprised if we didn't get a magmadroth variant as Battleline in the new Fyreslaers book. I'd imagine the Runeson on Magmadrith can be taken as Battleline at least once, in Lofnir. I'm imagining a Runefather and his eleven powerful sons sprinting up the board.

I CALLED IT.

[HollowHills]

Real monsters have a 2+ save 😎

[KingBrodd]

I love that Fyreslayers are finally getting articles!! But I don't like that they're Rules Articles as it brings more Doom and Gloom than anything else. 

[OkayestDM]

19 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Real monsters have a 2+ save 😎

Or is it that 2+ saves are the real monster?

[Arzalyn]

46 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

I love that Fyreslayers are finally getting articles!! But I don't like that they're Rules Articles as it brings more Doom and Gloom than anything else. 

Honestly if they weren't rules articles the doom and gloom would be about how their rules are so bad that they don't even have anything to show... At this point I just hope they release both books soon, so we can start discussing the whole picture rather than snapshots.

[Malakithe]

Im reserving judgement for now until there are more concrete leaks/previews. For now my hype for AoS in general is swirling around  in a toilet 

[Gailon]

Are there any other hero units that can become battleline? They will lose the leader role but keep the hero keyword. So a battleline unit that can have artifacts, use heroic actions, issue all commands, count for HGB ward bubble. Pretty interesting options there and very different. 

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, Gailon said:

Are there any other hero units that can become battleline? They will lose the leader role but keep the hero keyword. So a battleline unit that can have artifacts, use heroic actions, issue all commands, count for HGB ward bubble. Pretty interesting options there and very different. 

Thats true and this new attack profile can be boosted via Runes 

[Celadoor]

7 hours ago, Gailon said:

Are there any other hero units that can become battleline? They will lose the leader role but keep the hero keyword. So a battleline unit that can have artifacts, use heroic actions, issue all commands, count for HGB ward bubble. Pretty interesting options there and very different. 

Mega Gargants.   They don't lose the Leader Battlefield Role afaik - they just gain the Battleline role.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Celadoor

[Boar]

25 minutes ago, Celadoor said:

Mega Gargants.   They don't lose the Leader Battlefield Role afaik - they just gain the Battleline role.

They are inherently battleline, not become one

[Celadoor]

39 minutes ago, Boar said:

They are inherently battleline, not become one

Does that make a difference as to how it works in the end?

[madmac]

1 hour ago, Celadoor said:

Mega Gargants.   They don't lose the Leader Battlefield Role afaik - they just gain the Battleline role.

I forgot this was a thing, but I agree that's probably how it works. Otherwise, if you take away Leader from mounted Runesons but keep it for Runesons on foot, uhhhh, yeah.

[Gailon]

2 minutes ago, Celadoor said:

Does that make a difference as to how it works in the end?

I’d guess that’s it’s how they don’t lose the leader role? Behemoths that become conditional battleline lose the behemoth role. Which is an advantage for things like battleline stegadons. 

 

I’m sure GW will make sure this is perfectly clear at publication and there will be no confusion…