The Rumour Thread

[Whitefang]

3 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

What makes you so certain that a souping of certain ranges would be a deathsentence to certain factions.

the skaven have been souped, were meant to be souped, should have never been ripped a part at all, and yet an update in the model range will at some point certainly come

No? I am more than positive regarding the future of skaven?

I am just quoting people’s opinions here

[PraetorDragoon]

12 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

All I'll say on the potential Duardin Soup BT is that I feel for their players that dont want it. Besides both being Duardin they have about as much in common as Lumineth and Sylvaneth. It may work from a rules perspective but from Lore? It's not for me.

That being said if they do get souped and Malerion releases in a few years and ISNT souped with Daughters of Khaine that would be ridiculous.

 

It would require a rules rewrite in order for it to work, as currently there are multiple ways to mix KO and Fyreslayers, but nobody does so as there is a nonexistant synergy between them.

So the visuals don't work together, the lore doesn't work together, and the rules don't work together. I fail to see the advantages of soup.

 

[Greybeard86]

Again, soup might be the only option left for factions that may have been destined to disappear anyway.

FS have not been proper love in how long? I believe they are a relic from AoS 1 design mindset (hyper-focused disposable factions).

So I'd rather see them integrated into a broader dwarf faction than to see the "slayer" theme go to the trashcan. And by the way, it kinda is there right now (one of the least sold, played and liked factions, many surveys say so).

[sandlemad]

I think it's kind of weird that people have essentially trained themselves into having such low expectations for GW or range support that they would rather a faction gets lumped in with another and given half a battletome (background, focus, attention) over... better allies or interesting rules or what have you.

It is also weird that it's so focused around dwarves, above and beyond what you'd expect from the broad hints in the background. Like, why not just lump gloomspite and warclans together? Or StD and Beastmen? Beastmen don't seem to be getting much in the way of updates, why not fully confirm them as a vestigial organ of another faction?

Honestly even the Grungni thing being taken as confirmation of a total combined dwarf tome seems excessive. More inter-faction rules like with CoS and Stormcast (1 in 4 Dispossessed units or something), some sort of Ynnari (or even Kragnos!) style set up with a multi-faction hero, more background links in general, these are all not less plausible.

[Greybeard86]

1 minute ago, PraetorDragoon said:

It would require a rules rewrite in order for it to work, as currently there are multiple ways to mix KO and Fyreslayers, but nobody does so as there is a nonexistant synergy between them.

So the visuals don't work together, the lore doesn't work together, and the rules don't work together. I fail to see the advantages of soup.

 

You are forgetting that they once played together, steampunk, slayer, and viking dwarves, and the armies were diverse and breath taking.

 

[zilberfrid]

2 minutes ago, PraetorDragoon said:

It would require a rules rewrite in order for it to work, as currently there are multiple ways to mix KO and Fyreslayers, but nobody does so as there is a nonexistant synergy between them.

So the visuals don't work together, the lore doesn't work together, and the rules don't work together. I fail to see the advantages of soup.

There are some lists with Fyreslayers in Thryng. There is at least one person allying in a Gunhauler in Fyreslayers, so it is done sometimes.

This doesn't mean souping them is any more than a bad idea.

[Snorri Nelriksson]

4 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

You are forgetting that they once played together, steampunk, slayer, and viking dwarves, and the armies were diverse and breath taking.

 

Ko clashes really much more than the old classic dwarves with Fyreslayers 

The "steampunk" element in the old dwarves was really toned down if not absent (mostly latest things like the new gyrocopter and the last models of engineers like Damnison, empires got more steampunk styled things).

Edited May 26, 2021 by Snorri Nelriksson

[Greybeard86]

2 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

I think it's kind of weird that people have essentially trained themselves into having such low expectations for GW or range support that they would rather a faction gets lumped in with another and given half a battletome (background, focus, attention) over... better allies or interesting rules or what have you.

It is also weird that it's so focused around dwarves, above and beyond what you'd expect from the broad hints in the background. Like, why not just lump gloomspite and warclans together? Or StD and Beastmen? Beastmen don't seem to be getting much in the way of updates, why not fully confirm them as a vestigial organ of another faction?

Honestly even the Grungni thing being taken as confirmation of a total combined dwarf tome seems excessive. More inter-faction rules like with CoS and Stormcast (1 in 4 Dispossessed units or something), some sort of Ynnari (or even Kragnos!) style set up with a multi-faction hero, more background links in general, these are all not less plausible.

How is that weird? We have seen "Old World" dwarves all but disappear from AoS since its inception. We have also seen FS get no love and barely survive with a limited and samey range for many years. And it is not like KO are getting many new kits, are they?

Taking into consideration that Old World dwarves combined the three themes very successfully, I can only imagine than many other dwarf fans would be thrilled with: i) making sure they survive, even if it means diminished support for specialized armies (all FS or whatever), ii) the return of larger collections, as opposed to hyper focused ranges.

Hopefully this would also mean that they are easier to keep relevant via rules.

[Darnok]

2 hours ago, Dreddships said:

Cities of Sigmar souped a lot of factions up together and is probably one of the better books GW has produced and make a lot of the older 'obsolete' range feel new again.

Soup isn't bad at all.

Unless you would like to get some new releases every now and then. CoS did not get a single release since the end of WHF other than books. Quite the contrary: they actually lost access to models. The upcoming witchhunters are the first addition to CoS since 2015.

So yeah, soup might not be "bad at all", but it sure ain't great either.

 

2 hours ago, Dreddships said:

Throw KO and Fyreslayers together, throw in a small release of 'Neo-Dispossesed' and you've got the framework of a pretty good release.

Just no. KO, Fireslayers and Dispossessed share nothing but common roots. They are all Dwarfs - and that's it. It would make more sense to throw all Chaos armies together than all Dwarfs.

 

[sandlemad]

14 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

You are forgetting that they once played together, steampunk, slayer, and viking dwarves, and the armies were diverse and breath taking.

I feel like this tends to be a faulty comparison. A faction with a handful of mildly steampunk units and a single slayer unit with an overall common WHFB dwarf aesthetic is a different beast to a theoretical new super-faction mashing together half a dozen much more extreme and divergent Gilded Age steam/aetherpunk units with weird naked slayer-ish Grimnir cultists. There's a much wider gap between them than between any two WHFB units or e.g. any two Mawtribes units.

Fyreslayers and Kharadron were deliberately designed as their own AoS factions and meant to pull away from the common in playstyle, background and aesthetic. It's not even that they're hyper-focused, there's at least theoretical room for thematic breadth and a range of army styles and ideas in them (definitely for Kharadron, more in potentia for Fyreslayers). Lumping them together would be a lot more dissonant than doing so for factions made up of kits that were designed as part of the same WHFB armies. At that point we really might as well lump together Lumineth and IDK because both take basic ideas of the old High Elves and do new stuff with them.

10 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

How is that weird? We have seen "Old World" dwarves all but disappear from AoS since its inception. We have also seen FS get no love and barely survive with a limited and samey range for many years. And it is not like KO are getting many new kits, are they?

Taking into consideration that Old World dwarves combined the three themes very successfully, I can only imagine than many other dwarf fans would be thrilled with: i) making sure they survive, even if it means diminished support for specialized armies (all FS or whatever), ii) the return of larger collections, as opposed to hyper focused ranges.

Hopefully this would also mean that they are easier to keep relevant via rules.

It's weird because it's sad, because it's like people are forcing themselves to be glad to get crumbs. "This is the best we can hope for, that they are diminished and might get a small slice of the pie rather than anything else".

Edited May 26, 2021 by sandlemad

[Double Misfire]

25 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

You are forgetting that they once played together, steampunk, slayer, and viking dwarves, and the armies were diverse and breath taking.

 

Don't you go forgetting dwarfs with puffy clothes and feather hats there beardlet!

[Snorri Nelriksson]

8 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

Don't you go forgetting dwarfs with puffy clothes and feather hats there beardlet!

They should return for the cities imho.

[PainfullyMediocre]

10 hours ago, Barkanaut said:

I will be so angry if we get souped in. Fyre have nothing in common with ko look or lorewise. This is like making a sandwhich with peanut butter and dynamite.

Its the same as Savage Orruks and Ironjawz, they need a middle part to branch off of, like in the old world.

Edited May 26, 2021 by PainfullyMediocre

[Aeryenn]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Cities is getting two new models next saturday (and technically even got all those heroes from Cursed City already) and you can't in good faith claim that LoN "didn't get new models until it got new models". There is no reason not to count the new Soulblight stuff as new models for the old Vampire Counts range.

Two new models for a faction that consists of humans, high elves, dark elves, wood elves and dispossessed? Wow, what a flood of minis, what a great support.

That's exactly what I'm afraid of.

Instead of giving an individual model or two for every race/subfaction/"armybeforesoup" they release two models for all taken together. Underwhelming at best.

The scenario I see for Duardin Mix battletome is 1 Kharadron (since they are most popular dwarven army) mini once in a few years and that's it. Nothing for Fyreslayers, nothing for Dispossessed. And now compare that to Stormcasts, Lumineth or Slaanesh waves. If GW just puts a little effort they can and should release proper releases for Duardin.

Oh and the thing with Legions of Nagash is different than you described. It's not "didn't get new models until it got new models". It's "it was erased to make space for a different army".

1 hour ago, Whitefang said:

Technically, all these three factions you mentioned get more new models than KO and  FS...

But why lower your expectations to the lowest common denominator? Why not ask for a suitable 2nd wave instead of half a dozen stormcast, lumineth or whatever next releases? Or a break in releasing new factions to support older ones? 

Souping doesn't really solve problems with small mini ranges for many players. We have several pages now with posts of people who don't want to mix their Fyreslayers with Kharadrons and vice versa, I'm being one of them. Same is with orruks. If I were an Ironjawz player I wouldn't want to mix them with Bonesplitterz. Just like that, because I think aesthetically they don't match.

If souping was just "get two battletomes in price of one" I wouldn't linger. But it's not. It's half the story, half the releases for each faction individually.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Aeryenn

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

48 minutes ago, Darnok said:

CoS did not get a single release since the end of WHF other than books. Quite the contrary: they actually lost access to models. The upcoming witchhunters are the first addition to CoS since 2015.

Cities of Sigmar didn't even exist in 2015. The book came out in 2019. You can't use not getting models before the soup tome as an argument that soup tomes don't get models.

Since you don't want to count single heroes like the Witch Hunters, let's take a look at which factions actually got substantial releases since the Cities battletome.

• Ossiarch Bonereapers
• Slaves to Darkness (start collecting)
• Lumineth, two waves
• Hedonites
• Arguably DoK, but not really
• Soulblight Gravelords

So how is Cities different in this case from the majority of factions that didn't get anything substantial in this time periode?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, Aeryenn said:

Two new models for a faction that consists of humans, high elves, dark elves, wood elves and dispossessed? Wow, what a flood of minis, what a great support.

You used Cites as an example of a faction that gets no new models after being souped. It's getting new models literally this week.

If you want to instead make the point that they are not getting a substantial model release:

They didn't get models before they were souped together, and have only existed in souped form since 2019. Since then, five or six factions have received substantial updates. That puts Cities with the majority of factions. Better than some, since they are at least getting Witch Hunters now. Cities is completely average in terms of the support the faction has received.

 

1 minute ago, Aeryenn said:

Oh and the thing with Legions of Nagash is different than you described. It's not "didn't get new models until it got new models". It's "it was erased to make space for a different army".

Weird how I am able to use the exact same models in Gravelords to play the exact same list I used to play in LoN, then.

[Still-young]

Edit: doesn’t matter. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Still-young

[PraetorDragoon]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Weird how I am able to use the exact same models in Gravelords to play the exact same list I used to play in LoN, then.

Legions of Nagash had various Nighthaunt units, Arkhan the Black, Morghasts and Bat Swarms that are lost in the transition to Gravelords. Gravelords has less soup options than Legions of Nagash. There were several people in the Gravelords thread decrying that they lost models in the transition, and thus unable to play the exact same list as they were used to in Legions of Nagash.

[zilberfrid]

31 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Cities of Sigmar didn't even exist in 2015. The book came out in 2019. You can't use not getting models before the soup tome as an argument that soup tomes don't get models.

Since you don't want to count single heroes like the Witch Hunters, let's take a look at which factions actually got substantial releases since the Cities battletome.

• Ossiarch Bonereapers
• Slaves to Darkness (start collecting)
• Lumineth, two waves
• Hedonites
• Arguably DoK, but not really
• Soulblight Gravelords

So how is Cities different in this case from the majority of factions that didn't get anything substantial in this time periode?

One of the factions of which Cities is comprised got a new model, and it was removed before Cities existed.

Why can't we look at the update history of all the subfactions in it before it was souped up? In theory, that plethora of subfactions should give more chances of updated models, not less.

In Cities, they made a compelling tale about different small subfactions huddling together out of necessity, and it worked. None of the factions were that well fleshed out before, so this made them more complete.

In Warclans (and Mawtribes), the factions already worshipped the same god, and at least in Mawtribes the join still feels off.

In Dwarves, we have two extremes in both styling (diving suit & tech vs loincloth and monsters) and religious outlook (hammering runes in their flesh just to get a vision of their god vs not needing them), both factions with richer lore than any of the Cities subfactions.

EDIT: A few overpriced infantry heroes to replace the previously squatted ones are not really a meaningful addition.

Edited May 26, 2021 by zilberfrid

[Darnok]

11 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Cities of Sigmar didn't even exist in 2015. The book came out in 2019. You can't use not getting models before the soup tome as an argument that soup tomes don't get models.

Did they not have a book previously? The point still stands: none of what they have now didn't already exist back in 2015.

11 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

[plenty of other armies that actually got a lot since 2015]

So how is Cities different

None of that changes even a little bit that there is exactly one release for the current CoS book since 2015, and it will only be out in a few weeks.

You are shifting goal posts. Sorry, no interest in that on my end.

[SunStorm]

6 minutes ago, Aeryenn said:

Same is with orruks. If I were an Ironjawz player I wouldn't want to mix them with Bonesplitterz. Just like that, because I thing aesthetically they don't match.

 

Well as an Ironjawz player I am not being forced into using Bonesplitterz, the Orruk Warclans book allows me to still just use Ironjawz in the same way before. 

Do I wish we'd have got some new models? Sure, but do I think it killed off or diluted the identity of my Ironjawz force? Not at all.  

[Aeryenn]

7 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

You used Cites as an example of a faction that gets no new models after being souped. It's getting new models literally this week.

If you want to instead make the point that they are not getting a substantial model release:

They didn't get models before they were souped together, and have only existed in souped form since 2019. Since then, five or six factions have received substantial updates. That puts Cities with the majority of factions. Better than some, since they are at least getting Witch Hunters now. Cities is completely average in terms of the support the faction has received.

 

Weird how I am able to use the exact same models in Gravelords to play the exact same list I used to play in LoN, then.

For cities getting a soup battletome was be or not to be. It was pretty clear that each component race of this army will either be souped or not supported. This is the only case where souping was actually good. But in terms of new models I explained above. In case of these two vampire hunters all the aelves and disspossed are neglected because they don't match aesthetically. You might have your opinion on that.

Legions changed their identity so hard becoming Gravelords that I wouldn't call it just a change of name. Rules changed drastically as well.

[Aeryenn]

6 minutes ago, SunStorm said:

Well as an Ironjawz player I am not being forced into using Bonesplitterz, the Orruk Warclans book allows me to still just use Ironjawz in the same way before. 

Do I wish we'd have got some new models? Sure, but do I think it killed off or diluted the identity of my Ironjawz force? Not at all.  

But you will be probably hurt by the lack of a proper Ironjawz second wave release. 😔

[Still-young]

Just now, Aeryenn said:

But you will be probably hurt by the lack of a proper Ironjawz second wave release. 😔

If GW had plans for a proper second wave, I don’t think they’d have souped the book. 

[Darnok]

7 minutes ago, SunStorm said:

Well as an Ironjawz player I am not being forced into using Bonesplitterz, the Orruk Warclans book allows me to still just use Ironjawz in the same way before. 

Do I wish we'd have got some new models? Sure, but do I think it killed off or diluted the identity of my Ironjawz force? Not at all.  

I am in a similar situation - just with Bonesplitters. The OW book is in such a weird place: two rather distinct armies, both playable on their own, as well as together. Note how I said "weird" and not "bad": I think the game designers did a really good job here.

Having said that: both "halves" lack variety in terms of models, and they don't mix well on a visual level. I just wish they got more models sooner rather than later.