So, who does want Tomb Kings and Bretonnians back?

[Kaleb Daark]

From gw’s point of view, the question they ask is what do they give that existing armies dont.

TKs in gw terms are another skeleton army.  They already have that and with a big wizard lich king figure leading it too boot.  The only real usp are the constructs and aesthetic.

its the reason they keep giving to managers who keep bringing it up in the managers meetings.

as for brets...

lets leave IP, chapterhouse etc all behind for a minute.

they’d become nothing more that a proper medieval army in the king arthur sense of the word, quests, the grail and brave sir robin.

Now other than the obvious, both armies have one thing in common... neglect.

the first by the player base and the second by gw themselves, who couldnt get out of the knights in armour archetype.

now, for me this beggars belief, as they managed to get elves to be fifty shades of pointy eared annoyance.

they had so many chances to rewrite, re-invent and reinvigorate brets, but no.

knights, armour, and some watery elf tart who sold them all down the river in tge end- because Elfs.

Perhpas they could have been re-invented as they had been during the earlier editions of fantasy.

they’d work in AoS, i really believe they could.  

They could have given them the narnia treatment so thst they were a human faction that was perhaps a noble mirror to chaos with magical beasts allying or being bound to them, their lords could ride the mightiest of dragons. Perhaps they have given the lady up for a druid and a ring of standing stones, and who knows, maybe even centaurs who are goodly aligned and not spawn of chaos.

the realm of shadows could work for them, giving them their gritty dark edge.

but it won’t happen.

for it to happen there needs to be a demand, but also a reason to be there, and in the current realms the mothership in nottingham says no.

If you want knights in armour on fantastical beasties then its stormcast.

(Despite giving you several flavours of human factions  who have fallen to chaos in the upcoming warcry).

you've already got skeletons led by a lich god king.

And now if you want brets, well, flesh eater courts now drip with enough hints at the fate of the brets as were.

i like armoured knights, and masses of skeletons over renaissance humans in big trousers and gunpowder and zombies and hammer horror baroque coaches but thats just me.

 

im as much to blame as anyone- they were both the armies i was always going to do next but never got around to, and now they are gone.

😞

Edited May 5, 2019 by Kaleb Daark

[Jetengine]

Realistically the answer is all about sales but that in turn is tied into power level which is THEN in turn tied to GW.

People dont buy weak armies for fun. Especially during 8th ed when the costs were ludicrous. People will buy ugly models if their strong enough (the Razorgor was widely considered an AWFUL sculpt but as soon as its stats came out people bought it) but they wont buy weak armies.

 

[XReN]

I really love the lore and models of Tomb Kings, if I had collected a wholle army whille FB was a thing I would still play 8th edition now and then

For the arguement of Bretonia-not-fitting-in-AoS, thats BS.
I would agree that all their models should be discarded and they should be given a new name and new model range, as well as new theme, instead of being a medieval chivalric society they should become a knightly order type of faction, with brave men and women from across the realm gathered as elite cav army in pursuit of  goals like gathering long-lost artefacts (that's what Hollowmourne Grand Court was before they encountered famine that led to their downfall) and crusading against chaos. How can anyone argue that fantasy setting shouldn't have full plate human questing knights? 

[XReN]

On 5/4/2019 at 5:41 PM, Wobbly said:

Seeing a "death" faction break the mold and be rebels within the death Grand Alliance could be interesting.

I had so much hopes for it to be in FEC tome, instead it was mentioned that yes, rebels exist among FEC and they leg it as far from Shyish as possible, and everything else as well as Grand Courts with rules was about FEC bowing to Nagash

[EccentricCircle]

We've reached 100 Tomb King votes!

[Tzaangor Management]

I'm not a fan of either of these factions returning, mostly because I am in no way nostalgic about them. The models don't do it for me, they're leagues behind the current plastics and I don't care that Settra doesn't kneel.

I don't say that to invalidate anyone's point of view, but as a player new to the game (starting in the first year or so of AOS and not including the 90's where Settra wasn't in the game) and with new players clearly a target for GW's expansion, I think it's a point worth making.

That said, if either of these two factions was remade with the current technology and design aesthetic, then they'd be amazing I'm sure. I can't say they'd be an 'insta-buy', because I'm all about the aesthetics, but I got into Stormcast for the Aquilor and the Palladors, so a human-ish faction riding fantastic beasts would probably work. That said, are the Stormcast cavalry units already occupying that space?

[JPjr]

1 hour ago, XReN said:

For the arguement of Bretonia-not-fitting-in-AoS, thats BS.
I would agree that all their models should be discarded and they should be given a new name and new model range, as well as new theme, instead of being a medieval chivalric society they should become a knightly order type of faction, with brave men and women from across the realm gathered as elite cav army in pursuit of  goals like gathering long-lost artefacts (that's what Hollowmourne Grand Court was before they encountered famine that led to their downfall) and crusading against chaos. How can anyone argue that fantasy setting shouldn't have full plate human questing knights? 

Admittedly they’re one of the more obscure factions, but when you get a chance you really should check out Stormcast Eternals.

[Overread]

Tomb Kings already had giant walking skeletons like we have now- they also had regular skeletons surf-riding atop huge cobra mechanicals and a huge stride sphinx war engine. Their latter models were VERY AoS suitable. It was more their earlier range of old chariots and skeletons - the basic core - that was really old and aged. Same for Brets, you can bet if GW did their cavalary now they'd look EPIC with sweeping charges and dynamic poses rather than parade ground style stances.

[XReN]

3 minutes ago, JPjr said:

Admittedly they’re one of the more obscure factions, but when you get a chance you really should check out Stormcast Eternals.

I've heard about them, last time I checked GW launched this stupid store-opening model thing which you can't get in Russia in any way except from EBay for an insane price and I don't have much to add to my collection except second sculpt for LOrdinator and ballista as I own every other model in SCE range...

Anyway, SCE are immortal, very high fantasy type and can't go full-cav in Matched, so they are different enough to have another knightly army

 

[Pagan]

Personally, I love the Bretonnian aesthetic and do wish GW would still sell them.

If I want to collect some though I know that there are lots of non-GW options I could purchase and play as Bretonnians in anything other than an official GW tourney.

I do think it's a shame they are discontinued because I think they are great looking models.

[EccentricCircle]

3 hours ago, Pagan said:

Personally, I love the Bretonnian aesthetic and do wish GW would still sell them.

If I want to collect some though I know that there are lots of non-GW options I could purchase and play as Bretonnians in anything other than an official GW tourney.

I do think it's a shame they are discontinued because I think they are great looking models.

This is true, there are no shortage of options when it comes to actual models of late medieval knights at the same, or similar scale.

I know that there are a few sources of Tomb King-esk models out there as well. Mantic's egyptian skeletons have already been mentioned, but I think that the better range is actually the Reaper Warlord models. Their undead egyptian faction is called Nefsokar, and has some really cool stuff in it. I have a few of their Anubis warriors, they are smaller than Shabti, but have a very similar aesthetic in other respects.

[Ravinsild]

I don’t know. I love Age of Sigmar a lot for what it is. I genuinely do. 

I love the very high fantasy, super magical, over the top brightness and just glow and enthusiasm of the setting. I love the idea and lore and fury of the Stormcasts and Chaos and Ironjawz and the mystery of the Deepkin and all of that.

However sometimes I also sort of wish for like ordinary people? Grounded regular Dwarves, Elves and Humans the core 3 staples and sort of I guess stereotypical. The people the Stormcasts protect and the Chaos raid and the Idoneth steal souls from. 

The common man, like Astra Militarum in 40k but for all the races. Not all Dwarves are weird steampunk sky pirates or slayers you know? Same with normal humans and normal elves...

i guess I want an “Alliance” feel from Warcraft to be honest IN ADDITION to everything else in Sigmar 🤷‍♂️

[azdimy]

Would love to see both Tomb kings and Bretonnia in AOS. As a bretonian player I was sad to see them being canned. I m tired of snarky persons telling me I can play them in other game systems or FEC is the AOS Bretonnia 😥

[Sleboda]

On 5/6/2019 at 1:20 AM, Jetengine said:

Realistically the answer is all about sales but that in turn is tied into power level which is THEN in turn tied to GW.

People dont buy weak armies for fun. Especially during 8th ed when the costs were ludicrous. People will buy ugly models if their strong enough (the Razorgor was widely considered an AWFUL sculpt but as soon as its stats came out people bought it) but they wont buy weak armies.

 

People will and do buy weak armies for fun (and for art). I, for example, own well over 10,000 points (in 8th ed terms) of TK models from the last release of them. They were horribly bad on the table, but I spent tons anyway because the models were awesome and I love the army concept (despite its botched rules execution).

[EccentricCircle]

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

People will and do buy weak armies for fun (and for art). I, for example, own well over 10,000 points (in 8th ed terms) of TK models from the last release of them. They were horribly bad on the table, but I spent tons anyway because the models were awesome and I love the army concept (despite its botched rules execution).

Agreed, the eighth ed TK releases were massively fun to paint, and for a lot of us that is far more important than how they fare on the battlefield. I actually never got around to fielding my Tomb Kings until Age of Sigmar started, even though I'd been collecting them for years before hand as a display project.

[Ravinsild]

I straight up have a weird criteria period for armies I play. 

It's a jumble of: I prefer MSU and lower model count, Aesthetics is highly important, the way the army feels to play is important (an aggressive angry lore army SHOULD PLAY aggressive and angry and not like a weird turtle huddling close together and a strategic, magical army should BE strategic and magical and not like great at melee or something) and some other stuff.

Basically does it look cool, do I not have to field 60 of something to be effective (i dislike hordes and im a slow painter), is it fun to build and paint, and does it feel right when playing? So I have Ironjawz, Khorne (i don't think they're fun anymore :<) and Idoneth Deepkin and I kind of want some goofy goblins and some day chaos dwarves.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Ravinsild

[bushman101]

On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 8:08 AM, IneptusAstartes said:

Are you really saying HH and 40k is not as “way too out there” as AoS? I’ve got bad news for you...

yes. not to say that HH and 40k have their cringe moments, but overall   40k/HH fluff > AoS fluff

[Jetengine]

Thats all nice guys, but you don't buy in retail bulk to be considered worth the effort. Do you know what does ? Tournament winning , powerful, fantasy armies. Theres a reason Grey Knights players were suddenly everywhere for a while in 40k etc.

Gw like the tournament crowd money because they buy en-masse quickly.

[Lurynsar]

I think honestly we need both back, but not as they were. Part of the reason they had to go was the literal impossible to trademark images. Let’s be honest the theme of the armies were cool, but the visuals were lacking and uninspired. 

Because of this I want to see both back with a unique take. 

For Tomb Kings they need to be a Death faction opposed to Nagash. Nagash cannot have a monopoly on Death and it’s boring that he does. Put these guys outside Shyish and create as others have said a construct faction. You can have elements of Egyptian appearance and go all out with constructs brought to life by the souls of those the leader is able to steal from Nagash. This sets up an arc where Nagash hates them for stealing souls and they use a form of Death magic to exist. It places them in Death without the typical oooo skeletons and undead vibes. Think of them like the Wraith constructs of the Craftworlds faction in 40K. Infantry and bigger all controlled by souls either locked in or put into magic crystals that fight.

Brettonia was a terrible faction visually. It was just Knights from our own history with bad French names and lore. Now image a faction of Humans (or Human souls) who were left for dead in the old world and don’t worship Sigmar. Instead they push themselves to tear down everything Sigmar built because of what he did to them. Now imagine a suit of armour made of reflective glass that is cracked and chipped from battle. They don’t have a home to stop and resupply. They are on a quest. A quest to destroy Sigmar and his cities that he protects. From foot soldiers with broad swords or spear and shields armoured in glass to Knights with lance atop horses, Pegasus and more. To the commoners who have become disillusioned with the so called “protection” Sigmar offers throwing their masses at his forces. Here you have a Destruction faction unlike any we have before. Not just Orcs and Ogres bent on destroying things because they can but a faction of humans who truly have a quest in their destructive ideals. 

Those are unique ways for them to take the factions and make them fit into Age of Sigmar. You can use the themes of the armies (and in the Tomb Kings some of the older models) and have factions that fit into the GAs without being cliche and boring. More so they allow those old themes to come back into ways that are unique to the setting and they are set apart from members of their own GAs.  

[Overread]

8 minutes ago, Lurynsar said:

I think honestly we need both back, but not as they were. Part of the reason they had to go was the literal impossible to trademark images. Let’s be honest the theme of the armies were cool, but the visuals were lacking and uninspired. 

Daughters of Khaine use harpies and medusa - both as old as the Greek Mythologies. 
Heck look at Slaanesh there's a very clear impression of the 300 second film on the design of the concept for the new Demon Prince and his female associate dancing atop his blades. 
 

Nothing GW produces - NOTHING not even Space Marines - are protect able as a trademark concept. NOTHING.
Also Mummies and knights are as inspired as most things, in fact I would wager that Skaven are possibly the most inspired thing GW does and yet even they have their copies in things like the Rats of Nihm. 

Basically there's nothing purely original and its clear that GW isn't even aiming for that in the least. What they want is trademark names they can protect (and renaming Tomb Kings into Undwarvashals takes a few moments); specific model designs and lore and suchlike. Those they can protect, but the concept of a human demigod in supersized armour using a hammer of god for war - anyone can do that. 
Also look at the designs and themes, GW lifts themes from all over the place, often from the 80s and such. Heck AoS is basically what you'd get if you take album cover art from metal and rock music and make it into a game. Even down to the insane landscapes dotted with oversized terrain features (the realm of metal has a crucible big enough to fit a lake of silver filled with castles and fortifications)

[Tibus367]

In a world full of demigods, demons, mad gods, undead, and talking trees all fighting for dominance, I love the idea of regular old humans fighting for their right to exist and make a difference but I just can't get behind the cannons and pantaloons of the free guild.  I would love to have the knights in shining armor of Bretonnia if they brought them back.

[Skabnoze]

23 hours ago, bushman101 said:

yes. not to say that HH and 40k have their cringe moments, but overall   40k/HH fluff > AoS fluff

To each their own.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

For my perspective as someone that has played GW games since the late 80s - I really like what they have done with Age of Sigmar.  GW wears it's influences pretty heavy on it's sleeves for all of it's games and none of them are truly unique.  What is unique is the fluff-stew they have created by tossing a lot of varying influences into a pot - but the ingredients are often taken almost wholesale from other fictional or historical sources. 

Up until the release of Age of Sigmar every game world GW created was heavily rooted in a form of the Dark Ages.  Dark Ages fantasy is nothing new as it is how Tolkien structured his world.  It is common in Sci-Fi as well - just look at Dune or BattleTech for example.  It is a good framing device since it has historical and story-telling precedence that stems from the fall of the Roman Empire.  It worked well for GW and allowed them to create both the Warhammer Old World and also the 40k universes.

What I enjoy about Age of Sigmar is that they decided to change this and rather than set their world in a medieval dark ages setting and story-telling style they instead looked straight at classical mythology.  Everything about Age of Sigmar is rooted in classical mythology (especially from the narrative) and I find that to be a breath of fresh air.   I enjoy that, but I can see how others may not like it as much.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Skabnoze

[Turin Turambar]

On 5/4/2019 at 11:18 PM, Whitefang said:

Guess what, Myrmidia does exit in AOS and has her own kinght order

hmm must have missed her, could you give the source.

either way I think bringing her and a copy of her loyal worshippers (pikemen, crossbows with pavises, light cannons with limbers, etc) in the free peoples tome would be cool.

[Whitefang]

1 minute ago, Turin Turambar said:

hmm must have missed her, could you give the source.

either way I think bringing her and a copy of her loyal worshippers (pikemen, crossbows with pavises, light cannons with limbers, etc) in the free peoples tome would be cool.

Acts of Sacrifice, a short story by Evan Dicken

[Turin Turambar]

 

 

 

2

On 5/6/2019 at 4:28 AM, Kaleb Daark said:

 If you want knights in armour on fantastical beasties then its stormcast.

 

but those are two very different aethetics. 

knights are elite regular humans in armour (like scions/storm troopers), storm caste are over muscular humans in muscled armor with oversized puldrons (like space marines)

they would have different aesthetics and playstyle