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JPjr

TechHammer...

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I wondered where you all draw the line at introducing technology into games of AoS? And I'm talking the actual mechanics of playing the game here not the presence of steampunk dwarves or Tesla mice in the mortal realms. There was a thread last year about dice rolling apps and they seemed to split opinion but how far would/could you take it before you might as well just play Total War? 

As I would imagine that with enough time and resources it wouldn't be that difficult to create a program that not only performs random dice rolls for you but automates most of the process.

All the warscrolls involved are added at the start off the game, when you decide to attack with a unit you just select it from the menu, select the opponent, it prompts you to check if any relevant units are nearby that might modify +/- the results and then does all the 'To Hit/Re-Reolls if Applicable/To Wound/Save/Damage Rolls etc etc' in one go and just presents you with and end result, '6 WOUNDS' or whatever.

Of course with camera/measurement apps improving you could take it a stage further and you just scan your phone over the tabletop and it works out who is in range for all the above for you and just one click resolves all combat.

You could probably reduce game times by 50%+ and the actual results would, in theory, be identical (or potentially more accurate) but would something very important be lost from the game?

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I think a lot of people just like rolling dice, so unless one regularly has to roll hundreds of them, I imagine we probably shan't see dice apps used en-masse. An AR measuring app sounds like it could alleviate a lot of 'that is definitely five inches!', 'sod off, no it isn't!' disagreements...

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Rolling dice is the fun part of the game.

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An app would be easy.

Privateer Press did this for Warmachine years ago. GW could make an app that:

-has all the stats for models. 

-allows army building. Updates models with rules granted by battalions.

-allows you to track damage taken, and adjusts stats accordingly, for monsters that have changing profiles.

-pairs with the opponent's app, so both players can see the status of each other's armies.

It could even include a dice roller based on the unit doing the attacking or masking the saves, with a way to input modifiers. Paired devices could then each display the result, so there's never a question of how many hits or saves were successful.

 

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1 hour ago, JPjr said:

could probably reduce game times by 50%+ and the actual results would, in theory, be identical (or potentially more accurate) but would something very important be lost from the game

Cant imagine it will in real life. Setting up the dice rolling app for that specific use vs. Grabbing the dice on the table for example will be minimal at best. 

I use the app for warscrolls but tend to be faster with the cards. In my experience looking up rules while descisions are made costs the most time. 

Measuring helps though. That’s a good idea. 

And what is lost... I like the suspense of that crucial roll that always ends up under a piece of scenery, so that it is still not clear. Or people with their favourite dice for initiative roll offs.  

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I'd MUCH rather someone use a dice app, then have them roll 320 dice for there one unit of Ghouls, or They're 180 shots + exploding shots with Kunnun Rukk. 

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In 40k many people use a app allready to do the rolls.this lvo had in their bases that is legal the use of app to get rolls faster when there are many dices.

 

Im 100% with this,i dont like have to grab many times as 60 dices,roll in the table(because in tournament we havent space for roll the dices) with dices hitting the minis nonstop,some dices going out of the table allways etc etc

 

The app is great and can do a 4 hours game end in 3 or less.

Have to count 60 dices

roll them in the table

Count the hit

Remove the faills

Grab the hits

Roll again

Count the wounds

Grab dices again

Enemy roll dices for saves and ward saves etc

 

Vs app

 

Input the dices and click the dice button

See the hit count and click dice again with this number

Enemy click dice with the number showed

 

So first method can be as one minute each step(all the steps as 5 minutes) when second app method takes as 30 second all 

I never used it with my stormcast,but i gonna use it for sure when i play with my horde of dwarfs

 

Roll dices is slow and tedious,maybe as mmorpg player i love use tech before old style but i dont see the point in dices if the app is faster,less problems and have are advantajes

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20 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

I never used it with my stormcast,but i gonna use it for sure when i play with my horde of dwarfs

So what app are we talking about?

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I would personally like a siri type app devoted to AoS (and 40k) where you could ask it to clarify rules questions or stats etc and it says it loud for all players to hear 😁

Even give it a voice of your choice..."Nagash, can you explain pile-in please?" 😂

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28 minutes ago, NinjaBadger7 said:

Even give it a voice of your choice..."Nagash, can you explain pile-in please?"

Wouldn't mind Nagash telling me the way in my navi as well. :D

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3 minutes ago, Mutter said:

Wouldn't mind Nagash telling me the way in my navi as well. :D

"I  am....Death....the beginning and the end......oh yeah, turn left in 100 yards" 😂

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I’ve played a lot of dungeons and dragons and there is a ton of overlap in the conversation. People use game boards like roll 20 to facilitate games across the world from each other. As a dm and player I always prefer the real stuff and not just for asthetics. You can codify the attacks and spells all you want but at the end of the game things are always in flux. +1 here -1 there, taking the time to do the digital inputs. Don’t forgot my cleric blessed you add 1d4. I think the time savings becomes a wash when the game actually occurs. 

 

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Tough call. I would lean on an AR experience for not measuring per say but showing threat distance in the form of a circle from a point. Less to do with making judge calls and more with a tool that helps you make decisions faster. Or go ham and make a completely virtual game of AOS on an empty park table with no models or dice so you can play pick-up games. Play practice matches on the floor of a convention center during big warhammer events without the fear of having any of your models out in the open or smashed.  In the mean time play the actual game during dedicated days for gaming at your local shop. 

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9 hours ago, JPjr said:

There was a thread last year about dice rolling apps and they seemed to split opinion but how far would/could you take it before you might as well just play Total War? 

I need to be in a mood to play Total War, not because I wouldn't like it but my potato PC needs 50+ seconds to do a roundabout. So if an app does that I'll likely won't be using it on my likewise potato class phone. The upside of PC gaming is a story mode as most of my tabletop games are simply matched play. 

I don't really like dice rolling but even more, I dislike using gadgets for this particular task. When it comes to other potentials such as augmented reality I wouldn't want to see it or rather when this would be needed it is when the system becomes too complicated or there's too much information to take into account. It's not my cup of tea.

Edited by Tiger

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It might be because I'm not a competitive gamer but I just dont see the need.

The concept of using apps to make a game shorter comes across a little weird to me, I play to socialise, to have fun and pass the time and generally enjoy the game, if that means taking a pause half way for something to eat and drink and then returning then so be it. The idea of cutting a game shorter to cram in more might well be of more appeal to the tournament circuit when dealing with hundreds of games in a small time span but reducing time playing to me seems alot like going to see a movie and just settling for the trailer.

I'm also against most things that take player activity out of the game, if an app can work out contested dice rolls, armour saves etc all in one foul swoop then essentially the players are there to push the models around and lift off their casualties, you lose out on the tense moment as the roll is prepared, the counting up of hits and wounds, the randomness that only dice seem to bring and where you try and see if theyve got just enough or youve endured. If someone pressed a button and said "Ten die" its very... blunted. Arguably players are then spending most of their time doing the two things they hate, moving hordes and removing casualties, at which point playing it digitally then would become the ideal thing.

I like the tangibility, for the same reason I collect and paint miniatures, its real, its... there, same with dice rolls, its in the moment, its a physical thing that you see and are involved with. I love tech for many reasons but I'm not fond of it for removing elements of wargaming.

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As far as game length goes, it's not just tournaments where that matters.  Even casual play at FLGS can have serious constraints.  If the store closes at 9pm, and you're coming in after work (and after even a fast food dinner maybe), then you have to maintain at least some pace to finish a 2k game in time.

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9 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

As far as game length goes, it's not just tournaments where that matters.  Even casual play at FLGS can have serious constraints.  If the store closes at 9pm, and you're coming in after work (and after even a fast food dinner maybe), then you have to maintain at least some pace to finish a 2k game in time.

I'll admit I may be spoilt by my proximity to warhammer world and its late opening times/my variable days off

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I want to use assault dice as it's the official dice rolling app, but it dosn't exist for Android yet :(

 

Rolling 100 dice every time a plague monk unit attacks is getting a bit tedious

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Devices are for playing video games.  Boardgames and minis games are for reality.  The most I will use technology is if a game has an FAQ/Eratta document that would cost too much to print out.

Paper books, real minis, cool terrain, dice.  Accept no substitute.

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I sit in front of a computer all day for work, so when I'm not working, I try to keep computers, phones and tablets from seeping into things that don't require it. So all my of my table top games are in person with physical assets. Definitely no tabletop simulator, roll20, VASL or anything like that for me, which does make it hard to find role playing games and pretty much means I never play ASL or SFB. Any games that require an app are probably going to be a pass for me, and I'm usually going to make sure I get the paper copy of the rules, and I'll print them if they're not available in print(just printed to final version of the Mordheim living rule book last night). That's not to say I'm a complete Luddite when I go off the clock; I'll still play video games occasionally, and while they're not my favorite pass time these days, I'd rather my games be all digital or not at all. Dice rolling is one of the most satisfying parts of table top games for me, so I'm definitely not giving that up. Every time I've tried to use an app to track damage or look up rules, it felt so clunky. Even in something like Warmachine I felt like having the cards all laid out and tracking damage with a dry erase marker was just so much faster and more efficient. Basically everything described the original post just sounds awful to me. If any thing, I'd like GW to improve the paper table top experience by undoing the decision to make warscroll cards limited runs and them go ahead and make them for 40k too(beyond knights).

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I think a lot of the appeal/charm of hobby comes from it being analogue. I genuinely enjoy the feel of rolling dice for its own sake.

However I also feel that if you ever reach a point where you’re regularly rolling 50 of them something has gone wrong. There’s a fine balance between the way in which dice simulates chance and skill on the battlefield and the battlefield having more dice in it than miniatures and minutes of escapism being lost counting dice. It exacerbates the mathammer aspect of games and often reaches a point whereby the game itself feels secondary to probability.

I don’t know the answer but I feel the tendency within GW systems to favour multiple handfuls of dice for multiple exchanges points to poor design at that level. I think the tactical rules are very well done in AOS but they quickly become inelegant at a point of critical mass in combat.

A lot of technological responses to AOS are essentially an attempt to ameliorate this but there’s something intrinsically wrong with having such an escalation of numbers in what is otherwise quite a taught and well tuned game I think.

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While I like video games and enjoy the comfort todays technology can provide, I do't like that some people try to "digitalize" everything.

The wargaming hobby is one of them. Pushing the miniatures and rolling dice is part of the game I enjoy. I don't like a lot of digital extras, because they are clumsy or detract from the game. Especially if someone is constantly looking up the warscrolls on their phone. Takes more time and by the end of the game I already memorized all of it, while my opponent still did not.
What I would iamgine would be useful and still retain the physical aspects of the game would:
- proper gaming tables, with screens for unit stats and rules
- distance scanners, so you could get the info in an instant if the unit is within range or not
- laser pointers are nice to have for determining LOS
- and while I like rolling dice, I see why it's cumbersome to work out the result of some units attacks or if people have issues with counting up the results

And you know what I would like to see in the future? Augmented Reality for streams. That doesn't help the gamers themselves, but would make watching others play a lot more enjoyable. Like showing where the units are moving or which models consist a unit. Stuff like what is the Deep Strike or Melee range . You know, even if you just hopped on twitch, a bunch of overlays would help you to get oriented.

In short, I would welcome anything that adds to my experience, but I dislike everything, that tries to replace parts of the game or take control out of my hands.

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