AoS 2 - Fyreslayers Discussion

[Malakithe]

5 hours ago, JonnyTheKing said:

I think Hearthguard are going to be the core of a lot of lists going forward they're ridiculous now

Not if they are 180pts per 5 lol

[Dalton]

After seeing the changes I'm somewhat happy with the Runemaster, granted the terrain is about the same but there's more possibility to use that given more useful terrain in various armies, but the holy seeker rule seems a decent bit better to me. It may give less of a benefit than it did before, but the enemy picked gets no benefit and you can effect more that one unit and the master doesn't have to be as close.  And the extra weapon is a nice, if most likely not going to be used thing. He seems, if not the most useful thing, at least something that if you take it, you won't be looked at as crazy.

[PJetski]

24 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Not if they are 180pts per 5 lol

Theyre still significantly worse than units like Evocators, which are 200 for 5.

They're basically 4 wounds each, but only 2 attacks, and 4" move... With just the warscroll I'll guess Berzekers are 140-160 for 5. There could be some good synergy in the allegiance that would justify the 160 cost.

[Malakithe]

15 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Theyre still significantly worse than units like Evocators, which are 200 for 5.

They're basically 4 wounds each, but only 2 attacks, and 4" move... With just the warscroll I'll guess Berzekers are 140-160 for 5. There could be some good synergy in the allegiance that would justify the 160 cost.

Yeah thats fair. 140 would be ideal

[angrycontra]

I'm fairly happy with these warscrolls. Most units got some kind of buff and those that got nerfed (battlesmith and runesmiter) the nerfs were expected (wholly within ranges and prayer rolls and runesmiters can't be placed in reserve same time with the deepstrike unit based on wording of that ability) and they got other stuff to compensate for it (battlesmith has better melee and +1 to save is better than rerolls in some cases and there are probably artifact banners in book, while runesmiters get extra prayer from allegiance stuff plus endless prayers). I also like the crazy amount of save stacking these guys can get.

I'm especially happy that gw didn't go too wild with these changes, my biggest fear would've been that fyreslayers ended up hitting like a truck while taking blows like iron fortress but they seem reasonably balanced (in aos 2 standards). With that said, points are still concern. Too cheap, and fyreslayers will be broken. Too expensive and fyreslayers will be useless. I'm especially concerned about magmadroths. Gw has a bad track record of buffing unit's stats only to increase their cost too much making the buff near worthless (looking at you beast of nurgle). Based on magmadroth buffs, their cost should remain more or less exactly what it is now (20 points more I could still live with).

Lack of unbinds is unfortunate but maybe gw wanted to give fyreslayers this specific weakness (they have strong prayers themselves that can't be unbound after all). And on more positive note, my converted knight-incantor is still useful ally for the army.

[madmac]

Alright, Warscroll review time:

Vulkite Berserkers: Hit on 3s now, that's huge. Karl is +1 attack instead of plus damage, weaker but less of a hassle to roll out. Horn got changed to just +1 charge, that's kinda lame.  Wording on Slingshields and paired axes basically the same.

Verdict: Looking quite buff, actually! Streamlined but arguably stronger than ever, and more versatile now that you don't need blocks of 30

Doomseeker:

He lost a point of Move, randomly. Weapon profiles are unchanged. (and pretty lame, but hey 6 attacks) Oathbound is the only ability he kep, no changes. In place of Runic Power and Goaded by Fury, he gets a flat +1 damage for the first wound he takes, and +2 damage for the second.

Verdict: ??? Honestly man, I dunno. If for some reason he is wounded but not killed, he's a terror, otherwise he's fairly blah. Maybe with a good artifact you can do something with him.

Battlesmith:

Flat damage boost on his axe makes him no slouch in combat.  His change to + saves has already been discussed, it's good. Multiple stacking sources of + saves is going to be a new Fyreslayer gimmick, and his old re-roll ability would have been OP for the new Fyreslayers. Death ability is unchanged

Grimwrath Berserker:

Oh boy, flat 2 damage and -2 rend. I already forgot your name, Doomseeker. FNP ability unchanged, Battle Fury is a flat 2+, And dead but not defeated is automatic. Streamlined and buffed pretty much across the board. This dude is scary.

Runemaster:

Brazier thing gets a weapon profile. It's basically the standard issue wizard staff, but still, melee buff

Holy Seeker change is weird. Less of a disadvantage, still hard to take advantage of.

Volcano's call is actually slightly nerfed, has to make a prayer roll,  range changed from 20 to 18 and uses normal deadly terrain rules, so no more instant death.

Verdict: Ehhhhhh I'm gonna call this one a whiff. He's not useless, and it helps that he'll always have prayers or minding the forge to fall back on, but he's still weird and gimmicky.

Auric Hearthguard:

+ 3 range is nice, and Karl gives an extra range attack now, instead of the useless melee buff.

Sworn Protectors has been replaced, they can protect nearby foot heroes but no longer get + 1 to hit.  That's...hmmm

Verdict: The HP buff and Range boost, and improved Rockbolts are all very good things, bodyguard for your all important priests is also useful, but they did definitely take an overall hit to range damage.

RuneFather on Foot:

3+/3+ actually makes the Latchkey fearsome

Staredown is unchanged

Weapon Breaker is now just a single fish for a 6 at the end of combat, and only against heroes. It realistically will almost never happen

Lodge Leader is now just a 12" bubble of + 1 charge. Meh

Verdict: He needed the axe buff to be a credible melee threat, but everything else is arguably worse? Meh

RuneFather on Magmadroth:

Alright, Magmadroth stat changes are + 2 Wounds, and a bite attack 4+ 2+ -2 r d3 damage. Ok. Breath/tail attacks unchanged, except -3 range on breath. Magma Blood is now simply 4+/ 1 mortal wound for every melee wound allocated to it.

Steadfast Advance is now just battleshock immunity in an 18" bubble, good change

Runesmiter on Foot:

Save nerfed from 4+ to 5+. No change to melee profile. Empowerment is a prayer and -2 range, magic tunneling is mostly the same. It now kills units if they don't appear by the 4th round, and you can set up the unit 12" from the Runesmiter if that's important somehow

Verdict: Honestly probably the least changed hero, and gets a prayer now, so buffed

Runesmiter on Magmadroth:

Grand Ritual is now +1 saves ww 12"

Verdict: Buffed, more for general usefulness and character options, but the new ritual is arguably better and overall utility is very high.

Runeson on Foot:

Waraxe still sucks. Javelin hits on 4 at range now, but 3+/3+ in melee.

Javelin +2 dam works at both range and melee

Explosive Rage replaced with Vying for Glory, reroll all hits if within 6" of another Runeson. With how bad he sucks at fighting, not much help. Unless it works on Magmadroths...checking that in a moment

Dauntless Assault is now +1 wound rolls, 12 inch bubble, very very good

Runeson on Magmadroth:

Vying for Glory is indeed applicable on Magmadroth. So 2x Runesons on Droths is probably a must for Magmadroth heavy strategies.

New Command Ability-Molton Battering Ram. One Droth, charge and on a 2+ do d6 mortal Wounds

So basically Runeson has an actual niche now. On foot, use him to buff infantry, or take two Runesons on Magmadroths and go wild.

[madmac]

For a full on Magmadroth stack, assuming the kit shown in early previews is largely Priest specific, I would probably go Runesmiter as general, 2x Runesons, (buff each other and Battering Rams) 1x Runefather for the melee damage, mostly, and maybe one more Runesmiter as backup and extra prayer utility.

Would actually be a very interesting build, I think.

[Furuzzolo]

Phill of WargamerOnline is doing a live preview of the tome. 

Check WargamerOnline on youtube!

[Double Misfire]

Cross posting from the rumour thread. Full Guerrillaa Miniature Games Fyreslayer battletome review vid  🍿🍿🍿

 

[Clan's Cynic]

Vulkite Berserkers went up to 160pts without a bulk discount, which doesn't come as much of a shock.

Looks like Heroes generally went up 10-20 points, with some exceptions.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Clan's Cynic

[Luke.w]

Hearthguard berserlers at 120 for 5 is gonna be ridiculous

[Hannibal]

From the GMG Video(if I got everything right):

 

Vulkites 160 pts per 10 / 10 to 30 per unit / no discount
Runefather 100
Runemaster 120
Runesmiter 120
Runeson 100
Battlesmith 140
Chosen Axes 200 complete
Runefather on Magmadroth 280
Runesmiter on Magmadroth 260
Runeson on Magmadroth 240
Doomseeker 100
Herthguard Berserkers 120 per 5 / 5 to 30 per unit / 600 per full unit / battleline if Runefather is general

Battalions in 140 to 160 range

--------------------------------

Another review:

 

----------------

It seems to me that elite Fyreslayers might be playable. Either with the "alpha strike" Lodge or based on Magmadroths. It´s pretty nice because it means that you are not forced to get 100 naked models painted before your first battle.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Hannibal

[madmac]

Also notable-Doomseekers and Grimwrath Berserkers are not leaders, so they don't count towards your 6 cap.

[michu]

Make sense, in the old wfb you couldn't make Dragon Slayers your army leaders too. They're not here to command, they're here to die.

[angrycontra]

120p hearthguard feel bit low. I mean, it is small model count compared to vulkites but still, that's basically 20 wounds with 5 hearthguard berzerkers with better combat stats than vulkites. Vulkites do have better objective game but man 40p is rather big difference (also with no mass discount for vulkites, 30 vulkite units are pretty much dead, so gonna make some extra champions and musicians to reduce those unit sizes).

Grimwrath and doomseeker as non-leaders is fantastic. Gonna buy couple extra grimwraths in the future for sure. Endless prayers seem reasonable in their pricing. Runemaster is too expensive (runesmiter just still feels better option) but at least it doesn't ruin your game anymore. Magmadroth seem reasonable, runesmiter magma big point increase is justified imo.

All in all, fairly happy with points. But I really think they botched hearthguard berzerker and vulkite points. I think vulkites would be better at 150 (with mass discount) with hearthguard being 140 but we'll see how it goes. My biggest fear is that people are just gonna do hearthguard spam opposed to vulkite spam.

[Deepkin]

Hearthguard and Grimwrath spam will be murderous IMO. I am happy.

[Ciliegioinfiore]

Can you stack the battlesmith’ s ability “icon of grimnir” ?

[Hannibal]

1 hour ago, Ciliegioinfiore said:

Can you stack the battlesmith’ s ability “icon of grimnir” ?

It seems to be.

[Azamar]

1 hour ago, Deepkin said:

Hearthguard and Grimwrath spam will be murderous IMO. I am happy.

And then some! I was always wedging these guys in even in the 1000 point games I’ve been playing as they’re (IMO) the best models in the range. My loyalty is about to pay off! 

1 hour ago, Ciliegioinfiore said:

Can you stack the battlesmith’ s ability “icon of grimnir” ?

RAW, yes, but it feels obviously broken and I would not at all be surprised to see that FAQ’d at the first opportunity. Bear that in mind before you buy them on mass. 

 

Im really seriously surprised by the points though- hearthguard in particular look way too cheap. I guess time will tell. 

Any word on any magic defence abilities or artefacts? 

Edited April 13, 2019 by Azamar

[madmac]

6 minutes ago, Azamar said:

And then some! I was always wedging these guys in even in the 1000 point games I’ve been playing as they’re (IMO) the best models in the range. My loyalty is about to pay off! 

RAW, yes, but it feels obviously broken and I would not at all be surprised to see that FAQ’d at the first opportunity. Bear that in mind before you buy them on mass. 

 

Im really seriously surprised by the points though- hearthguard in particular look way too cheap. I guess time will tell. 

Any word on any magic defence abilities or artefacts? 

Antimagic stuff does exist. I don't remember all the details, but there's some traits/artifacts for priest that allow unbinds, and the Battlesmith in particular is the hero we need. IIRC, he has one magic banner that allows an unbind+mortal wounds if successful, and another banner that allows nearby units to resist any spell on a 4+

[JonnyTheKing]

So is Runefather still going to be the dos suitable for the magmadroth or do you think one of the other two might be better now?

[kenshin620]

2 hours ago, michu said:

Make sense, in the old wfb you couldn't make Dragon Slayers your army leaders too. They're not here to command, they're here to die.

But in WFB they still ate into your Hero/Lord slots or points.

 

Now the murder machines are like cruise missiles! Buy a few and send them off!

[madmac]

8 minutes ago, JonnyTheKing said:

So is Runefather still going to be the dos suitable for the magmadroth or do you think one of the other two might be better now?

They all have their key points.

The Runefather is now 3+/3+ with the Latchkey Axe and his weapon breaker rule is streamlined, along with better trait/artifact choices, he's still your bruiser option. In a less Magmadroth focused army he's also still a strong pick for General just for trait access and his command ability giving an 18" battleshock immunity bubble.  Oh and battleline Hearthguard Berserkers, obviously.

Runesons now have an ability that lets them re-roll all hits if within 6" of another Runeson, so two of those guys are pretty key if you're building a Magmadroth pack. The new command ability that lets a magmadroth do d6 mortal wounds on a charge is also quite nice.

Runesmiter on magmadroth is the only one that can take the droth helm (re-roll all droth claw attacks within 6") which combined with his buffed Grand Ritual, access to prayers, ect makes him an invaluable support piece. Good pick as general for any list, I think, with the small downside of forcing you to take vulkite only battleline.

The way I see it you eventually want one of each and two runesons. Max is 5, but I don't really see a reason to do more than 4 magmadroths, if I did I'd build 2 Smiters, 2 Sons, and a Father.

Edited April 13, 2019 by madmac

[ledha]

11 hours ago, PJetski said:

Battlesmiths give +1 save and it stacks. 4 battlesmiths is +4 to save rolls.

Fjul-Grimnir has a unique command ability (+1 to hit rolls) for a specific lodge. That's really cool.

don't expect it to stay.

And even if it stayed, because it's wholly within, you'd need your 4 battlesmith at the exact same place and it would affect only a small portion of the army.

As for the berserkers: 120 pts seems cheap, but outside the range of a hero, they can really die extremely fast. Unlike vulkites who can do whatever they want and go wherever you need them, your berserkers will be more limited because you'll NEED to be within a hero. I still find strange it's within and not wholly within, i don't think daisy-chaining of berserkers will be a cool or fun thing to face.

Edited April 13, 2019 by ledha

[madmac]

Just a bit of a mental exercise to try and put the point changes into practice, comparing the cost of maxed out battalions old vs new.

Warrior Kinband, 90 vulkites and a Runeson or Runeson on Magmadroth

Old cost=1280 or 1440 for Magmadroth.

New Cost=1680 or 1820 for Magmadroth

Lords of the Lodge,  Runefather on Magmadroth, Runemaster, Battlesmith, 30 Hearthguard Berserkers

Old Cost=1050

New Cost=1280

Forge Brethren, Auric Runesmiter on Magmadroth and uh lets say 3x10 Aurics, because 90 would be silly

Old Cost=940

New Cost=1140

And just for Fun, 5 Magmadroths+3 minimum size units of Vulkite Berserkers. 1 Runefather, 2 Runesons, 2 Runesmiters

1760 points. Oof! Definitely makes me lean more towards the 4 Magmadroth list.

Overall, the only big price jump was for Vulkites, but since almost everything went up about 20 points, across the board armies are definitely going to be smaller, and I don't think that's a bad thing.