AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[RUNCMD]

@Duke of Mousillon not sure what part of my reply wasn't "reasonable" but if you look on the warscroll of the Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc, the warscroll they have has the same keyword of "Tzaangor Enlightened" on it that is written on and required in the battalion.  

Unless there is an FAQ somewhere stating that they need to be on foot, this would be why it is not highlighted and can be taken in the battalion.

[Duke of Mousillon]

@RUNCMDoh no didnt say you arent but i was afraid since you are the one who also plays like this you would ofcourse support this interpretation of the rules so i asked for another oppinion. Did not mean to insult you. 

Let me ask you this. When you say the NONBOLD written Tzaangor Enlightened means the key word Tzaangor enlightened which would include Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc and not the name Tzaangor Enlightened which would exclude those on Discs since there name is different. Why do you think for example in the Changehost battalion the name Horror-Heroes  is written in bold. If the nonbold version is the keyword then surely the bold written version needs to be a name and not a keyword otherwise thered be no reason do differentiate between bold and nonbold. But is there a unit called "Horror-Heroes"?

Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs are not Tzaangor Enlightened they have two different names. BUT indeed they both have the keyword Tzaangor Enlightened in common. But if any rule refers to a keyword the keyword is always written in bold.

[RUNCMD]

22 minutes ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

@RUNCMDoh no didnt say you arent but i was afraid since you are the one who also plays like this you would ofcourse support this interpretation of the rules so i asked for another oppinion. Did not mean to insult you. 

Let me ask you this. When you say the NONBOLD written Tzaangor Enlightened means the key word Tzaangor enlightened which would include Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc and not the name Tzaangor Enlightened which would exclude those on Discs since there name is different. Why do you think for example in the Changehost battalion the name Horror-Heroes  is written in bold. If the nonbold version is the keyword then surely the bold written version needs to be a name and not a keyword otherwise thered be no reason do differentiate between bold and nonbold. But is there a unit called "Horror-Heroes"?

Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs are not Tzaangor Enlightened they have two different names. BUT indeed they both have the keyword Tzaangor Enlightened in common. But if any rule refers to a keyword the keyword is always written in bold.

Hey mate, all good, internet can be misleading st times, so much tonality lost lol. 

I totally see what you're saying as well, I think having a third person weigh in could really clarify as I see both your point and my point as valid.

Let's wait and see who else can weigh in! Because I'm super keen to know now!

[Duke of Mousillon]

 

4 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

Hey mate, all good, internet can be misleading st times, so much tonality lost lol. 

thanks you

[RUNCMD]

@Duke of Mousillon I have found this in the core rules, which is interesting! It says that you can include the title of the unit, and can ignore the sub headers unless it calls for that sub-header.

Looking st the EOD their "on Disc" part seems to be a sub-header? I think? Therefore could be taken right? 

Anyway, let's see if someone can weigh in. Either way I think ill magnetise my Tzaangor Enlightened now

[Jackroks981]

1 hour ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

@RUNCMDoh no didnt say you arent but i was afraid since you are the one who also plays like this you would ofcourse support this interpretation of the rules so i asked for another oppinion. Did not mean to insult you. 

Let me ask you this. When you say the NONBOLD written Tzaangor Enlightened means the key word Tzaangor enlightened which would include Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc and not the name Tzaangor Enlightened which would exclude those on Discs since there name is different. Why do you think for example in the Changehost battalion the name Horror-Heroes  is written in bold. If the nonbold version is the keyword then surely the bold written version needs to be a name and not a keyword otherwise thered be no reason do differentiate between bold and nonbold. But is there a unit called "Horror-Heroes"?

Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs are not Tzaangor Enlightened they have two different names. BUT indeed they both have the keyword Tzaangor Enlightened in common. But if any rule refers to a keyword the keyword is always written in bold.

The unit is called Tzaangor Enlightened, the “on discs of Tzeentch” is sub text on the warscroll. There was a faq a while back that said you ignore sub texts for battalions. It’s like with KO the Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit can go in any battalion the regular Endrinmaster can go in. The Enlightened on disc can go in the witchfyre battalion no problem at all.  

[RUNCMD]

4 minutes ago, Jackroks981 said:

The unit is called Tzaangor Enlightened, the “on discs of Tzeentch” is sub text on the warscroll. There was a faq a while back that said you ignore sub texts for battalions. It’s like with KO the Endrinmaster with Dirigible Suit can go in any battalion the regular Endrinmaster can go in. The Enlightened on disc can go in the witchfyre battalion no problem at all.  

Yeah just saw this in the core rules. Its a really interesting debate so im glad we got to the bottom of it because its better to clarify than rock up to a tournie and have to rework your battalion or list because of fine print. Thanks for the input around this. 

@Duke of Mousillon thanks for the discussion. I got a lot of knowledge out of this and didn't question it before but now I guess we know!

[Duke of Mousillon]

Thank you for explaining ^^ I did not know there was a differenciation between Text and Sub Text in the name of a unit. 

[GlitzFan]

On 6/25/2020 at 1:16 AM, Grimrock said:

Actually the marauders fit really well into tzeentch. Sure they don't have a great save, but their damage output is unreal and they're excellent choices for the 9" charge agenda. Plus we can make the Daemonic Power spell go off very reliably on a chaos sorcerer which is huge for marauders. The only downside is they obviously don't fit into any usable tzeentch battalions, but they add a really potent kick so it might be worth the trade offs. For that matter Archaon is a good choice too, and combining him with marauders can be particularly efficient. 

Hey man I would love your thoughts on a 2k list involving marauders and archaon!

[Arcce]

On 6/26/2020 at 9:28 AM, RUNCMD said:

 

Great list, I take something very similar! My thoughts for you:

- If the curseling doesn't do it for you, replace him with the Bluescribes, use it's ability w DD if you have any pesky 2's or 3's (they're not really that pesky, just not as usueful as 1's or 5's and 6's) to then get their spell for Boon of Tzeentch to auto cast and you're re-rolling all failed spells... Further to this, you can chuck them on the Balewind Vortex aaaaand then their bubble goes up to a 24" re-roll bubble AND they get they extra spell to cast each turn AND they get to add to their saves! kinda kewl and I love this combo, because coupled with the Command trait I think it is from GOS Coven, youre making a lot of bubbles for re-rolls which you will want because of the amount of Kairic's youre taking.

- The blobs of kairics youre taking is perfect. Theyre kinda poor on the saves I find so the bigger blobs are greater and also they keep their wizard ability for longer, PLUS a unit of 30 shooting in hero phase because of the Battallion is NOTHING to scoff at and can really mess with your opponent.. just make sure the 30 blob is where you need it to be and more likely to be in the front line because of the battallion ability and also they will deal some swift justice if you get off some of the agenda's specifically the one where every model counts as 2! that objective aint going anywhere!!!!!!!

- With guild of summoners, you almost WANT to go first (sometimes obvs depending on scenario etc etc) to rack those spells up and bring in Big Bird turn 1!! Bringing him in turn 2 really doesnt do much for us unfortunately unless it is one of those battle plans where heros or wizards hold objectives, because we can summon heros, we are really lucky in that sense, not a lot of armies can do this (at least from what I know of summoning from other armies which might not be the most lol). He is also a great decoy for when you bring him on because he can buff erryone nicely (in the hero phase) but if he has his rod hanging out he can still do some nice shooting wherever you plonk him.

- The Enlightened on disc are def gunna be the powerhouse of this list that you will want to chop things up with (nothing knew here) BUT, there is a real keeeewl way to get some mad buffs on them to make them even worse than they are... chuck the agenda that gives the unit an extra attack onto the Enlightened and then they get 4 attacks each, with 9 peeps attacking if they can all pile in, its going to hurt whatever it touches.

- Good spells with glimpse the future, arcane suggestion etc. Would suggest taking Aura of mutability on the Gaunty boy for when those horrors so they get (i think) +1 to wound on their rolls as mostly you'd have the Gaunt follow them for their -1 to hit buff. But not always needed.

- If you really like shenanigans, which I do but its not for everyone and its probably not always the most competitive spell to take, consider the burning sigil of tzeentch to cause some psyke out for the randomness of what it can do!

- Def make sure the magisters spell of Bolt of Change is sunk into a unit that has low wound count to bring in that chaos spawn. Even consider hitting your pinks with it because you get the Chaos Spawn for free plus another 2 blues so its honestly not that much of a loss to you at that point (can even use the endless spell of emerald life swarm to return those pinks, but because your pinks has suffered some wounds, you can drop the DD of 1 if you have it, for their banner ability to RETURN MORE PINKS muhahahahahaha).

- One thing I noticed about the list is that you have the ability to get 9 spells off in the hero pahse, which is great as this list has some solid buffs and what not, BUT I really think you need that bigger bubble of re-rolls from the scribes if you want to be brining the LOC in first round, spesh if youre given first turn! Just remember that you lose the spell from the guant if he brings those pinks in first turn, BUT, they can cast their spell straight up so you can luck it out that they bring you to 9 spells... might be a bit tricky but always something to plan for.

As for gameplan, probs bit more contextual depending on your battleplan drawn... make sure you let your opponent know of how dangerous those EOD can be and also that you can bring in those pinks whenever and that when theyre in they have no restrictions when they come in and they are a 50 wound unit in total (if they dont know already that is)... maybe chuck these closer to an objective when they come in or position them so they can take it first go or are prepped to do so.

Keep the 10 man unit of Kairics out of harms way, battleshock can force these off the board quickly if theyre knocked about a bit. The magister is a great dude to put behind the pinks and just chaos spawn spam them for extra "units" if you have the models. Do your battallion shooting with the blob of 30 but AFTER they get their spells off, not sure if the battallion business has to be done at the start etc, cant check soz.

The Curseling (ill admit im really not familiar with because I dont have him and dont use him) is kinda hit and miss I think (personal opinion only) based on his warscroll, so keen to hear how he goes! would be good against Nagash I think. Could even drop him for the Curseling if you have it to keep that double spell life.

 

Hope this isnt too much info, but im at work and have the time to reply, but I also love this list because it is VERY similar to what I am running atm and tweaking as my main hammer :).

 

Can you let us/me/the forum know how you go after a battle or 3? Cheers!

 

GLHF

So!

Had the event today and got smashed. Was a good learning experience though, was the first game I have played with Tzeentch and these units.

I made a lot of mistakes because of that but there was a lot to pick apart and learn from.

Guild of Summoners is decent but the restrictive Summoning was a problem especially when the 2 armies I fought were very anti-magic and had none or almost no spells of their own. The utility of summoning is the best part of it and a Lord of Change should start on the board because he is the best wizard you will have.

Enlightened are complete monsters esp with Charge agenda (which is an auto get if you have good DD), i killed everything around them without even getting to use anything but spears. However they then collapsed like paper when they got hit back. I did not play smart or strategic enough with them, waiting to countercharge may have been wiser in the first game and in the other game I should have suicided them into Archaon without playing it safe.

Acolytes were disappointing in terms of performance. Didn't output much because their melee range is so teeny and whilst their shooting is decent it needs Pyrofane improvements to shine, especially if taking the battallion to shoot twice.

Going from here I will try some pyrofane lists. I would try Cult of Transient Form but everything I have read is that the rules are weird and effectively worse than any other coven.

I like my tzaangors. if Tzaangor Coven battallion wasn't so expensive I would run it. But looking towards some flamers for an extra damage output and maybe some Chaos Warriors for a wall when I am not doing Pyrofane cause Kairic's melt like butter.

 

 

[RUNCMD]

@Arcce damn! No good to hear you got smashed but if you learnt something it was all worth it! Tzeentch as an army can be super fickle hey, especially when we rely so heavily on those clutch dice rolls and if you don't have the destiny dice to back it up, offfft you can fall fast on your face lol. 

Profane for acolytes is very good, spesh giving us the rend etc. I use profane for competitive stuff because I find, and exactly as you mentioned, LOC needs to be on the board asap if not build him into the list. 

I'm hanging out to see how flamers go up in the generals handbook (I'm thinking they will go up to 150 and the exalted flamer up to 120) before putting them into lists atm, but they could be good for adding in some variety!

I really feel that the Tzaangors lost out a bit in our new tome for sure. But there's some cool stuff you can do with them.

Thanks for the update and reply on the battles! When I'm in front of a computer ill share the lists I'm working with if you want?

[Evil Bob]

13 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

snip

Either way I think ill magnetise my Tzaangor Enlightened now

Magnetization is for winners!  Both of my screamer pulled chariots got that treatment.  My elite Tzaangor will get it when they are eventually assembled.

Aside GW after 6th WFB has made an art form of writing bad rules.  When they threw “entirely within” at us it caused some pretty serious arguments.  If going by the core rules structure any part of the base would count for being in range.  The only times GW has ever required whole bases was in certain rule sets with placed templates.  However anyone familiar with Warmachine and suspected GW just stole it was right about the entire base needing to be in the measurement.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Evil Bob
Accidentally put in “5th” when I meant “6th”

[Grimrock]

14 hours ago, GlitzFan said:

Hey man I would love your thoughts on a 2k list involving marauders and archaon!

Hmm, you know honestly I haven't tried both before and it's a little tricky. They're pretty pricy units and fitting them in makes the list pretty tight on points. If I had to do both I'd start with something like this:

Leaders
Archaon the Everchosen (800)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battleline
40 x Chaos Marauders (300)
- Axes & Shields
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (120)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (120)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 112
 

I'm not sure if it's worth it running both at the same time, but they certainly do combo well with eachother. I'll have to give it a shot sometime.

Edited June 27, 2020 by Grimrock

[Sedral]

Hey guys, new Tzeentch player here! I was wondering if anyone had any luck using classic StD units like warriors and knights with the Tzeentch allegiance?

They seem to provide some tankyness, which Tzeentch is usually lacking, but even with a warshrine they're not THAT tanky so I can't really decide between StDs or a bunch of tzaangor/enlightened who have a much better damage output instead.

This is the list I'm going for at the moment. The sorcerer lord on manticore looks really good, I'm really just second guessing the lesser mortals.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Eternal Conflaguration

Leaders
Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Coruscating Flames
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (160)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Magister (100)
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Fatemaster (120)

Battleline
15 x Chaos Warriors (300)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (120)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (120)

Units
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Ensorcelled Weapons
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)

Behemoths
Chaos Warshrine (170)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Tome of Eyes (40)
Realmscourge Rupture (60)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by Sedral

[MitGas]

Chaos Warriors and Knights are not really worth it unfortunately... Enlightened are better than knights (damage-wise and they're way more flexible) and I'm pretty sure Horrors are not worse than unbuffed Warriors if you wanna stall things or sit on an objective either. That said, I totally get you wanting to use mortals... they're nice to look at but if you want to make very solid lists, they don't really do well. Of course there are might be exceptions, depending on what army you play against or if your group is more relaxed and doesn't try to powergame. 

[RUNCMD]

On 6/28/2020 at 7:31 AM, Evil Bob said:

Magnetization is for winners!  Both of my screamer pulled chariots got that treatment.  My elite Tzaangor will get it when they are eventually assembled.

 

Hey Evil Bob, do you use many Chariots at all in your lists? If so, how do they fair? I'm really curious and also condiering building one but also, I feel I could use some of the model parts for conversions/not sure if Chariots hold their weight?

Interested in your thoughts!

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm looking to strengthen my Beasts of Tzeentch, but not using the Tzaangors and their kin (Gors for battleline, and then I have 30 Bestigors and 9 great axe Bullgors and 9 Axe/Shield Bullgors, and 3 Doombulls, a Beastlord and Bray Shaman).  

I've tried them with a minimum Warpflame Host.  I had just one unit of 6 Bullgors.  The Flamers/Exalted Flamer were just ridiculous, and if not for the presence of a few central woods, they would have been much more nasty.  Fatemaster on Bullgors is super awesome sauce!  I'm wondering if it's best for the Beasts to go more Bullgor/Fatemaster and less shooty.  And keep Flamers all to themselves in a shooty army.  

What  trait, spells and relics should I be thinking of for Beasts of Tzeentch?   Fatemaster was my general, and looking at Beasts, they're not mortal nor daemon; doesn't seem like much helps them out in Tzeentch besides Fatemaster and Destiny Dice.   Blue Scribes for Cogs seems like a winner, no?

[Lord Krungharr]

Thinking about my Flamer army, is silly to run this many?

Eternal Conflagration

Daemon Prince (general with Coruscating Flames, Axe,  Aura of Mutability)

The Blue Scribes (Fold Reality)

Fatemaster (Paradoxical Shield)

3x9 Flamers

3x1 Exalted Flamers

Warpflame Host

1970 points

Too much burning?  It'll probably fold hard in combat, but with 27" ranges on the shooting, their flight, and only 4 drops, seems somewhat competitive vs certain matchups?  Blue Scribes can pretty much automatically bring back dead Flamers every turn.  Daemon Prince can probably smash a simple hero or two if needed.  Fatemaster dishes out the reroll bubble and tanks wounds with his crazy save tricks.

[Wired4War]

11 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Thinking about my Flamer army, is silly to run this many?

Eternal Conflagration

Daemon Prince (general with Coruscating Flames, Axe,  Aura of Mutability)

The Blue Scribes (Fold Reality)

Fatemaster (Paradoxical Shield)

3x9 Flamers

3x1 Exalted Flamers

Warpflame Host

1970 points

Too much burning?  It'll probably fold hard in combat, but with 27" ranges on the shooting, their flight, and only 4 drops, seems somewhat competitive vs certain matchups?  Blue Scribes can pretty much automatically bring back dead Flamers every turn.  Daemon Prince can probably smash a simple hero or two if needed.  Fatemaster dishes out the reroll bubble and tanks wounds with his crazy save tricks.

This definitely seems like a "win by tabling your opponent from range" type army. It will be quickly over for one of you either way.

[Lord Krungharr]

11 hours ago, Wired4War said:

This definitely seems like a "win by tabling your opponent from range" type army. It will be quickly over for one of you either way.

Awesome!  I was on the fence about getting the extra needed flamers.  Also gives me  a good reason to sculpt an inferno themed display base to practice some ZBrush.  

[RUNCMD]

My Predictions for points changes in GHB Twenny Twenny:

- Gaunt on foot up to 260

- Gaunt on disc up to 280

- Lord of Change down to about 360, maybe slightly less ( I reckon it should be at 350/340 imo)

- Fatemaster up to 130 or not changed at all (dont think he needs it tbh)

- Blue Scribes up to about 130/140 (not that they need it, and I think they should stay where they are at)

- Kairics might go down to 80? But I doubt it (i'd like to see them drop though)

- FLAMERS! up to 150! (no doubts here)

- Exalted flamers up to 120 (in line with the flamers)

- Screamers MAYBE down to 70 (doubt it)

Thats all I really think would change atm. Pinks I think are fine where they are and I think anything more than 200 and people just won;t ever take them and this is not a way to balance an army, but hey, we have seen GW nerf Tzeentch before so could happen again.

I personally don't think the Gaunts need to go up for both variants, I reckon they are costed pretty well at the present and if anything the Gaunt on Foot could drop by 20 (max though) given its pretty slow and so squishy. Disc Gaunt will def go up though imo, although it'd be a nice surprise if it stayed the same.

One thing I would love to see drop in cost is the Mutalith. If it dropped to 150 I'd probably take two in a list for much shenanigans!

[Myzyrael]

Kairics going down would be something I‘d really appreciate. I learned to like them with the new battletome but losing them to more or less any blow of a leaf in the wind disheartens me every time. Just 10 points would go a long way and allow for an endless spell for example. 
 

Pinks are ... they are the only unit we habe that can hold a Position instead of mainly being able to roadblock for one charge phase. But I can understand people getting upset about them. At the same time seraphon brutality upsets me 🤷‍♀️😂

[RUNCMD]

Im still yet to play the new seraphon really because of lock downs but I hear they're pretty brootal and trump Tzeentch in a lot of ways. Same for Lumineth now, apparently they are pretty magicy and also sturdy. 

Its going to be interesting when GHB releases.

[VonSmall]

Calling it now; Host Arcanum and #screamermeta. Sharks smelling those wizards!

[Hannibal]

On 7/1/2020 at 2:42 AM, Lord Krungharr said:

Thinking about my Flamer army, is silly to run this many?

Eternal Conflagration

Daemon Prince (general with Coruscating Flames, Axe,  Aura of Mutability)

The Blue Scribes (Fold Reality)

Fatemaster (Paradoxical Shield)

3x9 Flamers

3x1 Exalted Flamers

Warpflame Host

1970 points

Too much burning?  It'll probably fold hard in combat, but with 27" ranges on the shooting, their flight, and only 4 drops, seems somewhat competitive vs certain matchups?  Blue Scribes can pretty much automatically bring back dead Flamers every turn.  Daemon Prince can probably smash a simple hero or two if needed.  Fatemaster dishes out the reroll bubble and tanks wounds with his crazy save tricks.

I´d play it much more MSU style because there is almost no support for your Flamers. In addition I´d try to include 2x 10 Chaoshounds as screens against alpha striking melee lists. They are extremely cheap and cover lots of board space.