AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[GeneralZero]

Thx for the report.

That is the problem with pink horrors: they are ****** fighter, more likely shaff to slow down enemies.  Screamers are also not really fighters: they have mobility to win you some time or an objective, especially in MSU of 3 screamers.

Maybe try to replace the 10 pink by some heavy hitters: tzangoors or enlighten or even kairic acolytes (depend on your strategy). What do you think?

[Kaylethia]

Round 2: Tempest Eye Bogaloo!

We played Starstrike on a 4x4 table.

His list was: Warden King, 2x5 Pistoliers, 2x10 Hammerers, 10 Handgunners, 10 Arkanauts, 1 Hellstorm Rock Battery (lovingly proxied by what I think was an old Grudge Thrower model), 1 Celestar Ballista.

I goofed a bit with my early interactions, luckily he didn't shoot my heroes off the table. I forgot to bring a proxy for the endless spell, opting instead to try out an extra CP. Against Greenskins, I felt like the CP could've worked better, while in this game, I felt that the endless spell would've put in a lot of work.

I pushed for more engagements on my left flank, while the center line objective dropped in the middle of the table and the other two were very deep into my right flank.

I ended up pushing a tie on VP and losing on kill points again in a very rough and very fun game where there was a lot of back and forth. This army and this list is working well for me and helping me develop better positioning and threat assessment skills.

As for changes: I'm thinking about building 3 Enlightened on disc to sub in for the Skyfires to have a bit more melee power outside of the Screamers, who seem to need the buff from the Hosts Arcanum CA.

[Maserdom]

Here we go again!

In preparation for the upcoming (one year or the other) return to normality, while I slowly kill my eyesight painting a Lord of Change I've prepared three different 1000 points lists for my Disciples of Tzeentch. I have yet to play a signle match with the birdy boys due to the lockdown, and I'd really appreciate any help or insight!

Each list comes with a small explanation on why I put those units together and what I presume they should do on the battlefield.

 

LIST 1

Spoiler

ETERNAL CONFLAGRATION

• Gaunt Summoner - GENERAL - useless coven ability - Treason of Tzeentch
• Magister - Bolt of Tzeentch
• The Changeling
• 10x Pink Horrors
• 3x Flamers of Tzeentch
• 3x Flamers of Tzeentch
• 1x Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch
• Emerald Lifeswarm

Pretty straightforward.

The pink horrors crawl towards the objectives, trying to envelop anything in the way with the support of a nearby hero's CA to prevent fleeing and destiny dice rolling 1 on the battleshock. The Lifeswarm is an additional source of cancer trying to spawn more Horrors.

The flamers do flamey things on everything.

The Changeling is there because every player in my groups has at least a wizard and, while I adore the Curseling, it's too expensive. Also, is that a catapult? It would be a shame if it had to stick its ass to a corner in order to prevent the Changeling's backstabbing, thus reducing its effective range on the first turn.

The Gaunt Summoner is on anti-horde duty with the Treason of Tzeentch; the Magister will get the help of a couple of destiny dice in order to cast both Bolts and hopefully summon a Chaos Spawn because our bird god likes random ****** and I do too.

All in all, the command points will be just there to keep pinks on the board at all costs if heavy casualties are sustained, and will be kept instead in case of lesser casualties,auto-rolling a 1 to ress some pinks and then remove the blues/brimstones due to battleshock.

 

LIST 2

Spoiler

HOST DUPLICITOUS

• Ogroid Thaumaturge - GENERAL - useless coven ability - Arcanum Infusion
• The Blue Scribes - Tzeentch's Firestorm
• The Changeling
• 10x Pink Horrors
• 10x Pink Horrors
• 10x Pink Horrors

Hold the enemy in place and beat the ****** out of it from the sides.

The pink wrap everything up and prevent any escapes, splitting up farther and farther in order to reach the objevties while fighting.

The Blue Scribes cast the Firestorm on 2+ because haha flame spell go fwooosh, the Changeling does changeling things while buffing the Ogroid with reroll 1 armor saves, and the Ogroid rapes anything near it.

The coven's artifact for +1 save is actually quite good on the ogroid, raising its armor to 4+ rerolling 1s with the universal spell. Arcanum infusion turns him into death incarnate and a small space will always be left open by the pinks for the ogroid.

The command point is either spent on the pink's battleshock test, on rerolling 1s to hit for the ogroid, or on the turbo random coven trait.

This list exists to win through attrition, but I fear that relying on so few high-power units (ogroid and scribes) could be a bad idea against sniper like enemies.

 

LIST 3

Spoiler

ETERNAL CONFLAGRATION

• Gaunt Summoner - GENERAL - useless coven ability - Treason of Tzeentch
• Gaunt Summoner - Bolt of Tzeentch
• The Blue Scribes - Firestorm of Tzeentch
• 3x Flamers of Tzeentch
• 3x Flamers of Tzeentch
• 1x Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch

This list needs to either go first or deploy in the safest possible spot until the summoners can bring in those 20 pink horrors.

Depending on the opponent's setup, the Blue Scribes will either cast their reroll spell dice ability, or the firestorm.

The Gaunt Summoners wil stay in the back and shoot mortal wounds at enemies held in place by pink horrors, because that's how their fanged tentacular bird ****** gets all tingly after years of painful bullying in high school.

The assorted flamers will again fly around and punish blobs first, heroes later.

 

I already own a non-competitive army (built on purpose for fun) and I'd like something stronger for those tighter matches you sometimes want to have.

One last question,  too: at which point level is a Lord of Change an acceptable choice on the field? On the other hand, assuming that the meme coven Guild of Summoners is taken,  does the answer change or the amount of redundant spellcasting you need for Big  Bird is still in the 400 points range anyway?

Edited May 15, 2020 by Maserdom
forgot a spell

[RonnPhan]

How would a Tzaangors heavy list looks like and would it be viable to play with? I’m new to the tabletop side and really like the look of the newer Tzeentch stuff but some of the older daemons like Horrors and Flamers looks funky to me. 

[GeneralZero]

Tzangors are good but need to be buffed; a bit exensive and a bit slow. Enlighten and skyfire are good and can be deadly if played/buffed right. Shaman is a must have in a tzaangors list. Kairic to help and feel the battlelines. 

After this, you have to think about your strategy: heavy hitters? hordes? harasment hit'n run like?  Magic (need more wizzards)? etc...

Final note: do you need (ultra) competitive? in this case, tzaangors heavy list are not the best in tzeentch.

[Dreadmund]

20 hours ago, RonnPhan said:

How would a Tzaangors heavy list looks like and would it be viable to play with? I’m new to the tabletop side and really like the look of the newer Tzeentch stuff but some of the older daemons like Horrors and Flamers looks funky to me. 

You could definitely make a fun, viable Tzaangor army. There was a lot of complaint when the new book dropped because they lost the daemon keyword on disc, so you can't use fold reality on them any more. But they also gained things like agendas which are brilliant. 

[TheTaintedSpud]

I've been working on an Arcanite list... Cult of the Transient form, as I like the idea of Acolytes poofing into Tzaangors. I'm not looking for super competitive, but I don't want to get stomped either.

Allegiance: Tzeentch -
Change Coven: Cult of the Transient Form
LEADERS
Lord of Change (380) - General - Command Trait : Defiant in their Pursuit
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (140)

UNITS
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
30 x Tzaangors (540)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)

TOTAL: 1970/2000
EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 150
LEADERS: 3/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 0/1 ALLIES: 0/400
 

[GeneralZero]

I like the theme. But here are my 2cts:

2*20 kairic: at least I'd go 1*10+20

30 tzaangors: a bit overkill: I'd go 20.

that gives you 280pts to get something more useful. Some skyfire+ES, or a gaunt sumoner+ES, or something else...

[Malakithe]

Generals handbook is coming. What points changes do we want or predict? 

[GeneralZero]

LoC/Kairos , tzaangors , enlighten/skyfire, kairic , spawn  are a bit high. Emphasis on "a bit". Just need a little adjustment. But 10pts here and there and you get another unit somewhere that make the difference.

Gaunt will probably see a slight up.

dunno for the others.

[obmik1]

1 minute ago, GeneralZero said:

LoC/Kairos , tzaangors , enlighten/skyfire, kairic , spawn  are a bit high. Emphasis on "a bit". Just need a little adjustment. But 10pts here and there and you get another unit somewhere that make the difference.

Gaunt will probably see a slight up.

dunno for the others.

This. Loc/kairos, tzaangor, skyfires and enlightened all down 20 points.

 

And then more than likely. Pinks, flamers, exalted flamers, changehost battallion up 20.

 

Gaunts up  40.

 

Personally I think this will leave is in a good place and people could stop hating on us.  I think that's a dream world though. The fearmonger in me things we will be taken out back behind the shed and put down. 

[GeneralZero]

1 hour ago, obmik1 said:

And then more than likely. Pinks, flamers, exalted flamers, changehost battallion up 20.

I don't agry about that: horrors are fine: they quicly lose on fight. They don't do much more that shaff. Bataillion, dunno. 

What make the horrors so in despise is the gaund wich will probably go up by 20 , not more I think. 

1 hour ago, obmik1 said:

This. Loc/kairos, tzaangor, skyfires and enlightened all down 20 points.

I think that 20 is a bit high. Some will go -10 (kai/tz/HQ ), few -20 (sky/LoC/kairos) to make a heavy tzaang chicken army (like I'd like). (Probably one of the most beautiful in DoT).

But I expect a large discount on max unit.

[obmik1]

16 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

I don't agry about that: horrors are fine: they quicly lose on fight. They don't do much more that shaff. Bataillion, dunno. 

What make the horrors so in despise is the gaund wich will probably go up by 20 , not more I think. 

I think that 20 is a bit high. Some will go -10 (kai/tz/HQ ), few -20 (sky/LoC/kairos) to make a heavy tzaang chicken army (like I'd like). (Probably one of the most beautiful in DoT).

But I expect a large discount on max unit.

I totally agree with what you're saying about horrors. I don't think they need to go up either, but they will. The issue is they're going to try and balance the book around changehost. Instead of balancing changehost. Which is what worries me.

 

The points increases I think will happen. Maybe even higher than what I suggested. But I don't think anything in our book will come down. The tzaangor stuff has needed a reduction for a long time. 

 

The reason I've suggested 20 points is because most points adjustments are done in 20s. 

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

12 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Generals handbook is coming. What points changes do we want or predict? 

Know it won’t happen but as someone who hasn’t gotten the chance, due to pandemic, to see the current points played to any serious extent would be hoping for no changes.  Agree with @obmik1 that the problem with TZ isn’t the points, it’s issues with battalions or sub factions.

[Firefrog]

Seraphon has exactly the same issues and strenghts as us, and I'm quite sure they're more broken than Changehost ever was.

Both have the issue that they have low cost shooting that need buffs to shine, however in the case of Seraphon they are much tankier and cost less points. If they'd increase the point value of flamers it wouldn't do the warscroll justice. I could see a point increase on pink horrors, 50 wounds is nothing to shrug off. However, 50 wounds with the current meta is nothing with such a low save.

I'd rather see them buff the other half of the book, the "friendly" stuff. Because currently the way I see it, only the daemon side is worth the points and by Tzeentch I do love me some Kairic Acolytes!

[obmik1]

10 minutes ago, Firefrog said:

Seraphon has exactly the same issues and strenghts as us, and I'm quite sure they're more broken than Changehost ever was.

Both have the issue that they have low cost shooting that need buffs to shine, however in the case of Seraphon they are much tankier and cost less points. If they'd increase the point value of flamers it wouldn't do the warscroll justice. I could see a point increase on pink horrors, 50 wounds is nothing to shrug off. However, 50 wounds with the current meta is nothing with such a low save.

I'd rather see them buff the other half of the book, the "friendly" stuff. Because currently the way I see it, only the daemon side is worth the points and by Tzeentch I do love me some Kairic Acolytes!

Agreed. Although seraphon are unlikely to be touched this ghb, I would imagine this had gone to print before or as the seraphon  book was dropped. We'll have to wait until christmas for those changes. 

 

Totally agree with buffing the mortal side. And I dont think 20 points on flamers, pinks, and exalted flamers will kill them, but it will make it harder to produce a changehost, and it's the battallion that truly makes those things scary.

[Deadkitten]

On 5/22/2020 at 4:38 PM, obmik1 said:

I totally agree with what you're saying about horrors. I don't think they need to go up either, but they will. The issue is they're going to try and balance the book around changehost. Instead of balancing changehost. Which is what worries me.

 

The points increases I think will happen. Maybe even higher than what I suggested. But I don't think anything in our book will come down. The tzaangor stuff has needed a reduction for a long time. 

 

The reason I've suggested 20 points is because most points adjustments are done in 20s. 

Sadly I think you're right.  Changehost needs to go up by  a significant margin.  Flamers do seem under-costed, though.  Gaunt Summoner will get bumped for sure.  

Regarding Pinks, I think you're right they'll go up, but 10 Pinks isn't that great.  Honestly, I think they found a good balance in that the wizard buff deteriorates quickly and the 20+shooting buff isn't available.  20 Pinks is where it's at!

But we've had no data with the Lock-down.  Who really knows how bad it is??? 

   

[Coyote]

(Sorry wrong thread)

Edited May 24, 2020 by Coyote
Wrong thread

[Malakithe]

14 hours ago, Deadkitten said:

Sadly I think you're right.  Changehost needs to go up by  a significant margin.  Flamers do seem under-costed, though.  Gaunt Summoner will get bumped for sure.  

Regarding Pinks, I think you're right they'll go up, but 10 Pinks isn't that great.  Honestly, I think they found a good balance in that the wizard buff deteriorates quickly and the 20+shooting buff isn't available.  20 Pinks is where it's at!

But we've had no data with the Lock-down.  Who really knows how bad it is??? 

   

The issue is with how fickle the player base is. If any battalion, no matter how good or from what faction, goes up too much then it will be dropped fully and never see play. Then GW will drop the points back down and people will use it again...and the cycle continues.

[Wired4War]

Is there a reason people run min sized flamers? Is it just for battleline in a conflag army? It seems like 6 would do a better job of clearing enemies (next to an exalted of course).

[MitGas]

I got an interesting rule question I think: the soulsnare shackles mess with movement, halving it on a 3+... now let's say I play against Ironjawz who get extra movement in multiple phases with all their units (like when one of their units gets shot at or I use a spell on them, they are allowed to move that unit further towards me - that could easily result in 2d6 extra inches a turn)... wouldn't the shackles be the best spell ever against them, effectively crippling a horribly scary sounding rule? Or are the shackles truly only usable in the movement round... I feel like GW didn't think of that in the warscroll (which is fine seeing as the IJ battletome came way later).

Else the only thing I can think about is shooting a select few units so that they move closer and closer and be easily killable before the rest of those green raging idiots come charging in and kill my sweet, noble and terribly cute minions...

Edited May 26, 2020 by MitGas

[MitGas]

42 minutes ago, Wired4War said:

Is there a reason people run min sized flamers? Is it just for battleline in a conflag army? It seems like 6 would do a better job of clearing enemies (next to an exalted of course).

Well, I'd consider it like this: I get one shot more thanks to a second pryocaster, can shoot at two different units, if my unit gets attacked by a strong enemy unit I can only lose 3, battleshock is less of a worry (they got 10 so this is minor) and when I'm in CC with one of them (remember, shooting units in CC can only shoot at the unit they're in close combat with), the other unit can still shoot at something else. I think these are all good arguments for running two units. Plus the whole battleline thing you've mentioned - in smaller games this is especially important.

Edited May 26, 2020 by MitGas

[Wired4War]

1 hour ago, MitGas said:

Well, I'd consider it like this: I get one shot more thanks to a second pryocaster, can shoot at two different units, if my unit gets attacked by a strong enemy unit I can only lose 3, battleshock is less of a worry (they got 10 so this is minor) and when I'm in CC with one of them (remember, shooting units in CC can only shoot at the unit they're in close combat with), the other unit can still shoot at something else. I think these are all good arguments for running two units. Plus the whole battleline thing you've mentioned - in smaller games this is especially important.

All good points! I think I'm used to melee units where you want them all going at once. If I need to attack one target with two units in the shooting phase I can.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Wired4War

[obmik1]

1 hour ago, MitGas said:

I got an interesting rule question I think: the soulsnare shackles mess with movement, halving it on a 3+... now let's say I play against Ironjawz who get extra movement in multiple phases with all their units (like when one of their units gets shot at or I use a spell on them, they are allowed to move that unit further towards me - that could easily result in 2d6 extra inches a turn)... wouldn't the shackles be the best spell ever against them, effectively crippling a horribly scary sounding rule? Or are the shackles truly only usable in the movement round... I feel like GW didn't think of that in the warscroll (which is fine seeing as the IJ battletome came way later).

Else the only thing I can think about is shooting a select few units so that they move closer and closer and be easily killable before the rest of those green raging idiots come charging in and kill my sweet, noble and terribly cute minions...

Soul snare shackles triggers in the movement phase, lasts until the end of that phase, and halves the movement characteristic.  So potentially you could trigger it on a 6, say on some ardboyz. The ardboyz would then only get to move 2.5 inches, but they would also get to move a full d6... 

 

What I'm saying is shackles has 0 effect on the d6 movement from taking damage. 

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, obmik1 said:

Soul snare shackles triggers in the movement phase, lasts until the end of that phase, and halves the movement characteristic.  So potentially you could trigger it on a 6, say on some ardboyz. The ardboyz would then only get to move 2.5 inches, but they would also get to move a full d6... 

 

What I'm saying is shackles has 0 effect on the d6 movement from taking damage. 

Hmmm, that is also something to consider, didn't think about the effects of it giving them another d6 movement if I happen to do dmg with them... oh well, time to find other things to halt the green tide then. Thanks!