Deadkitten

How do people mitigate getting doubled? While Skaven Battalions aren't the greatest, the Plague Furnace one and the Verminis one do exist to go for low drops. On paper, it seems that Death Frenzy and Warp Gale should help. Maybe a Warp-Grinder in Reserve to punish for over-extending?

Yeah, don't play the game Oppo wants you to play. Although I do still like a hard answer! What I'm not sure of is whether the Teclis/Stormfiend trade is worth it. It sure is Feel Bad, though. Skreech's Warpfire/Catapult scenario is exactly what I mean by present a Question (and is probably a better one than just a bunch of plaguemonks sprinting forward.)

Full disclosure: I played my first remote game w Skaven yesterday....... (It didn't go well.) If you could pull off the Teclis/Stormfiend trade I think that's the way to go. Unfortunately, as Gwendar said, we're not in a good place, ATM. Instead of asking the question "Can you deal with this (non-sense)?" we need to instead present an answer. I think the Stormfiends are an Answer (to Teclis), whereas the Plaguemonks are more of a Question. While questions are generally better than answers, unfortunately, I think that Lumineth's answer is pretty much, "Yes, we got this," when presented with a chunk of melee units. BUT, you're facing a known opponent, so go with the hard counter (assuming you can pull off the trade). Just my $.02. But let us know how it goes.

How are people liking the Acolytes and the Jezzails these days? How are you running them?

The basing guide is the controlling document.

Looking for a casual funzies list. Only looking to go 3-2 playing in the backyard during the Rona. Allegiance: ChaosArchaon the Everchosen (800)Slaves to Darkness Daemon Prince (210)5 x Chaos Warriors (90)5 x Chaos Warriors (90)5 x Chaos Warriors (90)3 x Varanguard (280)3 x Varanguard (280)1 x Mindstealer Sphiranx (100)Extra Command Point (50)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 98 Utter garbage? I could combine all the Warriors into a block of 15 I figured a list like this needs some coverage? 15 Warriors at least give me a shot at an objective though. But I didn't go for that 3rd Varanguard unit bc I didn't want to leave a 280 pt unit babysitting a back objective..... 270 isn't exactly an improvement on that front. Anyway open to criticism.

That's a bit of a loaded question and you're going to get answers that run across a wide range. I think GW would say they attempt to balance out their games. I think the vast majority of the community would agree they're better than they were. There's been some indication that they receptive to feedback. Beyond that there will be vastly different ideas about how much they do, how successful they are and various motives for doing what they do. They is a an expected schedule for updates and following them is sort of a thing.

The above is all pretty good. The only thing I would add would be to jump into each of the faction specific threads. Scroll through them a couple pages or just post and say you're a new player considering the faction. Ask about playstyle and strengths/weakness. The players are very helpful and accommodating. It isn't uncommon for an advanced player to pop in, say they are looking at them as a new army and ask about the current state of things. Finally, my biggest piece of advice is to pick a faction with models you want to paint.

Oh yes, of course. My bad.

Allegiance: ChaosKeeper of Secrets (380)- Ritual KnifeThe Contorted Epitome (210)The Masque (120)Bladebringer, Herald on Exalted Chariot (220)30 x Daemonettes (330)30 x Daemonettes (330)10 x Daemonettes (110)5 x Seekers (120)Epicurean Revellers (180)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 116 What if I pitch Depravity and summoning all together? Only looking to go 3-2 at the FLGS in casual games.

Am I too much of a cynic if I just say bc its lets them print a new White Dwarf article?

You got it. The Horrors have great coverage w CH and play the objective game great. Don't underestimate the damage 20 Pinks can get out especially w the Aura of Mutability. Horrors need so much character support I use the Changeling primarily for that. He a 2 caster with the -1 ability. I usually play him conservatively behind some Pinks and just drop his -1 ability on anything that decides to tangle w the Pinks he's babysitting. I want some redundancy with that additional -1 to hit. Every now and again a mission comes up where it could snipe out a T1 objective but I always chicken out trading him for the extra VP. I think its a mistake. If I'm not running a 1 drop, I think I need to watch for when my opponent drops their hammer and deploy him opposite that.

Played this vs Ogors yesterday. Blades Edge. Allegiance: Tzeentch- Change Coven: Eternal ConflagurationLord of Change (380)The Changeling (140)Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)20 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (440)10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)Changehost (180)Extra Command Point (50)Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)Total: 1980 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 94 He had 2 Stonehorns, the Pot, 3 vanilla ogor units, big unit of shooty ones and a big unit of choppy ones. I gave him first turn and he just moved up. I did pull the Changeling and teleported a unit of 10 Pinks on a flank w the Changeling in support opposite the big unit of choppy ogors. Next turn, they took the bait. Even with the Changeling, they did just enough to damage to get the Icon. Next turn, I teleported the Blues away to grab an undefended objective. I backed the changeling off hoping to draw the ogors out of contention for objectives but that was a no go. I teleported the Changeling the next turn to summon blues to screen an objective. In the end, this play took up most all of my teleports. It did buy me a couple rounds of relief from the big stabby unit supporting the stonehorns, but I'm not sure it was worth the investment. The stonehorns + an ogor unit charged my 20 Pinks that had a screen of Brimms, backed up by the changecaster and LOC. I was also able to get the other 10 Pinks to put shots into the Stonehorns. Still, they did a lot of damage and cleared out the Pinks. I think I made a mistake not popping Geminids, but it would have been out of the LOC Dispel range to pull it off. I was able to do this the next turn and was eventually able to grind through the Stonehorns but it took me a turn longer than I thought it would. Still, it constituted the biggest threat by far and without any support from the Choppy or shooty ofor units, it was just a matter of time. On my left were the other 2 Ogor units and the big shooty unit. I had the 20 Blues that I teleported over from the choppy ogors and a unit of brims. A highlight was 9 Brimms holding an objective from 4 ogors. I had to commit the Bird and destiny diced the sword through to clear out the ogors. He would eventually die to the Leadbelchers but by then I was enough ahead on VPs and the blob in the center had dealt with the Stonehorns. I would have been able to take a chunk out of the Shooty ogors to make them ineffective. We called it here. Overall not bad. I think I again misplayed the Changeling. it feels like he needs to be in the action and I had him off on a sideshow. I've made some aesthetic and FLGS casual balance decisions which leaves him as my only real means of supporting Pinks if I want to project them out other than the Bird.

Ah yes, the Witherstave! So good!Was it on the GUO? Surrounded by a pile of Plaquebearers? If so, they are slow, although watch out for the tree. You could try feeding him small units that lock him in place.

You can get a big blob of 20 Pinks into CH, you just need to dial back the Flamers a bit. CH is too good not run if you're trying to be as competitive as possible.

I guess what I'm trying to evaluate is whether or not that still makes them OK. Are they still a 3-2 list even if they aren't 5-0 anymore? And then how bad do the stock units really need to be in order for the Hero/Summoning package to not be worth it. I don't think they're there yet.

Boy this blew up! I had Faction in mind when I posted. I think part of being a battleline unit is that it is a piece of a greater whole. So many units look blah on paper but then get enough support to come up to something decent. We play Factions, not hodge podges of individual units. Having said that, looking at individual units is fine too. I'm considering a new army for the season and I always start with the Battleline. If they don't appeal both playing and painting, then I take a pass.

Thinking about this Hammerhall list Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar- City: HammerhalLord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)Celestant-Prime (300)Freeguild General (100)Freeguild General (100)10 x Freeguild Guard (80)10 x Freeguild Guard (80)10 x Freeguild Guard (80)30 x Freeguild Greatswords (360)30 x Freeguild Greatswords (360)Total: 1960 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 124 Maybe 2 Scourgerunner Chariots would be better than the Guard?

Thinking about this Hammerhall list Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar- City: HammerhalLord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)Celestant-Prime (300)Freeguild General (100)Freeguild General (100)10 x Freeguild Guard (80)Scourgerunner Chariot (80)Scourgerunner Chariot (80)30 x Freeguild Greatswords (360)30 x Freeguild Greatswords (360)Total: 1960 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 124 EDIT: I think the Chariots are better than more guard here. Maybe only 1?

Sorry for the mis-understanding. I get what you're saying. I'm looking at a new army and always start with the Battleline. I remember Daemonettes being good from playing against them. No max discount does seem to hurt for sure.

Hey All! Sussing out a new army for the season! How are people running Bloodletters these days? Is Murderhost still a thing? The warscroll is pretty lackluster. What am I missing? Is there a way to boost their attacks? Give them run and charge? Get down to 1 drop? Thanks! (Please don't take my skull...)

There is a LOT to be said about base sizes. Basically, it's OK to disadvantage yourself, but not gain an advantage. Having aid that: http://www.mengelminiatures.com/2020/05/the-myth-of-modeling-for-advantage.html Basically, as with everything else: Rule #1 Rule of Cool; Rule #2 Wheaton's Law

This came up in the Slaanesh thread. Which army has the best Battleline now after the FAQs and GHB20? There's lots to consider. I think theres Speed, Durability (both in terms of armor save and MW save), damage output, MW output, Points Cost, synergy with the rest of the army (access to buffs) and relevant battalions (to lower the drops). There's also Battleshock (maybe healing goes here?) OH! and base size is a thing, so there's reach (2" on a 32 vs 1" on 25 for example). How well do they play the objective game (1 TG vs 20 Pinks for example)? Finally, I know that some units rely on Battalion or Sub-Faction buffs to push them over the edge. That's OK (just list it out so I can look it up!). Also, some unit's need a general to unlock them. Again, that's OK too. Basically, if you can list build them out as battleline, they're fair game. I guess I should start...... Rigth off the top of my head, I'm going to say Ghouls, due to both the synergy of the rest of the list with them and their ability to grow back. They suffer in the speed and MW output, and are fragile in that they need all their support pieces. I can see an argument that their dependency will knock them out of the running but I figured I should get the ball rolling.

You started to define what you mean when you say "best" or "worst" battleline. I think theres Speed, Durability (both in terms of armor save and MW save), damage output, MW output, Points Cost, synergy with the rest of the army (access to buffs) and relevant battalions (to lower the drops). There's also Battleshock... OH! and base size is a thing, so there's reach (2" on a 32 vs 1" on 25 for example). That's a lot of dials. Its going to be hard to balance everything out. I do like where you are going with what's the average Battleline unit look like and how do Daemonettes relate. They are so fast! -1 Rend is average. The MW output is there even if it isn't great, and even if you need to pay for a battalion to do it. I'd rather they be 3+/3+ natively, but with so many ways to generate re-roll 1s, that's not the end of the world. I don't think Daemonettes are very far below average. Agreed, they are not "the best" anymore but just bc they aren't the best, doesn't make them the "worst." As an intellectual exercise, which other armies' Battleline unit would you rather have here? Do you think any other armies would want the Daemonettes?

A new season, a new Army! Yeah, spamming Deamonettes just isn't what it used to be. Taking away the max unit discount really hurts them. Still, a relevant battalion to get drops down and run+charge isn't nothing. -1 Rend is still relevant even if there's a couple of hard counters running around (NH & LRL).