Frowny

So my biggest frustration with the cities tome is that everything doesn't generalize. The dwarf heroes only buff dwarves, the general only helps humans. It makes it hard to actually field diverse lists since as soon as you commit one way, you are rewarded for committing more. Handgunners with access to a generals command ability are better than branching out into dark shards for example. So in thinking about opening up the field I'm left wondering, would it actually be broken if dwarves could buff elves with their command abilities and auras etc.? So I'm asking the hive mind to see what the most broken thing you all can come up with. The worst I can imagine: dwarflord +1 attack command ability on numerous blocks of fearless greatswords. Runelords giving rend to crossbowmen or darkshards (usually their weakness). Sorceress sacrificing humans for slightly more flexible +casting making battlemages obsolete. Longbeards grumbling about everything. They would definitely be slightly stronger. Sisters of thorn providing cover to ironvreakers for a 2+save wall. I think mostly this isn't broken though, and could've fixed just by increasing the cost of these specific units by 10 to 20pts or so or by capping benefits at +1 (like no stacking rune Lord rend). What are your thoughts? Broken? Better balanced? I kinda like the image of a free guild general on griffon charging into battle with a bunch of dwarves and elves with a command ability to match. That being said might actually reduce build diversity with it being even easier to just max out on the most efficient options.

Your math for the different dracoths ignores their cost. Desolators are as damaging per point against big squads and since they are cheaper, they are sturdier per point. Obviously worse against single targets but still better when charged, even against single targets.

It does look fun. I'm surprised he doesn't have a general in there. At least for the outriders but sometimes the pistoliers might be close enough to use it too. Is there any value in something besides tempest eye for pistoliers? Also I'm so sad that the battalions are city locked. It might be interesting to try pistoliers in living city or a tempest eye whitefire retinue or something. I keep wishing the book was more cross compatible

Has anyone tried either of the stardrakes in living cities? The easy access 2+ save seems solid, casting boost is good, and the Drakesworn can even shoot to move if needed. The biggest problem is surely the cost for damage output though.... I'm also wondering about outriders. They seem solid to pop up and shoot from a flank with a nearby general. Or maybe that doesn't work since lists are too light on CPs to both move shoot move and still have a command point for the free guild general? Edit- also why the fulminators? Desolations seem better to me but maybe I'm missing something.

Has anyone tried a mass pistoleer or an outrider list? They math out pretty solidly I think. Possibly in tempest eye for that turn 1 or maybe living call for the move after shooting. Thinking of a fun way to use some Brettonians or maybe mechanical horses from the admech range.

If you want some gw alternatives, I love the kairic acolyte models. With some head swaps and shield swaps I think they would do very convincingly.

Dear God. This. I totally agree. I'd enjoy the game MORE if it were MORE diverse, both from a hobbying perspective and from a more diverse set of opponents (Although my current ones are also great). Also from a business standpoint, it makes total sense. They are only currently tapping a small percentage of their possible market share (mostly white men at well under half the population) and could tap the other 70% with better marketing. Some more diverse minis and paint schemes and tutorials would go a long way. I think they are already going this way. The latest space marine video they put out for 9th edition featured the sisters of battle quite heavily. I think that was intentional, partly from a gender balance perspective (although maybe they also want to sell their cool new sisters minis')

My Longshot dream bladegheists going to 2 wounds and 3 attacks with a price bump to match so we have some more elite infantry and that 32mm base horde spot isn't so crowded. Hexwraiths gain the reroll wounds reaped like corn from grimghasts so they can actually do some damage. Dreadblade harrows takable in units. Would be nice to have some more elite options.

I've definitely used stacking mawpots. Sometimes 2d3 heal off a cheaky arcane bolt is better than a better spell. Also, you can definitely stack the ice row hunter ability. I've used it 3 or 4 times on occasion with good effect. The sabres are still not amazing killers though and remain fragile so it's not that useful most of the time.

Seraphon would do well with a fun range of dinosaurs and are probably the strongest competitive list you could make with those constraints. Ogors I really like for this. Tons of Internal balance so almost everything is usuable, and things are expensive enough that you can choose not to use something if you want. Legion of chaos ascendant could make a cool mixed demon army and a lot of the best units are single modules which would be fine with just minimum size I think you'll do a lot better from a play perspective if you allow yourself a few nonminsized units units though. But if you are truly doing it for the modeling, which it seems like you are , I would actually just ingore our advice and paint what you want. Much more fun and seems to fit your goals better.

It's for a primaris Lieutenant, Not a captain. Duh. Gotta keep teasing battletome primaris lieutenants.

While staying within GW, I also reckon you could do a good job with regular dwarves with some head or armswaps. For example, Irondrakes with chaos warrior heads would look quite reasonable I think, especially if you attached some axe-blades to their gun or something. I'm sure there is a better way to do that as well if you are at all creative. I don't think it would be that hard. You could also use some admech bits for that more engineered feel.

Yes. Fun, flavorful, and importantly, very reasonable and playable. Generally, the more possible models in an allegience the weaker the abilities have to be to compensate for how strong all that variety is. You did an excellent job straddling that line of interesting, thematic and seemingly balanced. First, I would clarify whether the palpable disregard rule can be used for each unit or only once overall. I would lean toward once overall. 2nd, on the Contracted Transport rules. Firstly, stipulate that it only affects infantry. Just for clarity. 2ndly, I would make the drawback bigger. deepstriking flying hearthguard bezerkers have the potential to be a bit much, as do flying deepstriking irondrakes. They are already very strong in appropriate cities lists, and being deliverable easily and safely at close range would be very very good. They are much more points efficient at shooting than grundstock thunderers. There is a reason that kharadron mostly have 8inch guns. I would stipulate that non-kharadron models cannot shoot while embarked and may not charge after disembarking. This seems like the most abuseable part of your rules.

I hear there are a lot of spoiled images of rules etc. Would anybody be able to PM them to me? Or maybe they are somehwere in this very long post where I could find them?

Yes As long as you have 2 models, you have enough for a skaven civil war. They're quite into that sort of thing. More seriously, definitely yes, I'd do exactly as the Kramer recommended. A Draft might be fun

Ogors. Hands down. Easy to move around so it makes the games quick. They play exactly like you'd expect ogors to play (hit like trucks, somewhat sturdy) Very fair, no sneaky gotcha moments for your opponent, forces you to play good fundamentals. Still strong enough to win games overall, great internal balance means many different lists are possible and fun. They can play in every phase of the game Might makes right means you always feel in the game, even down models Other important (But fun things about them) Cheap to start (BC start collecting is great value, even the regular gluttons kit is tons of value) Easy to convert Easy to transport (it does indeed matter) Nobody ever seems to have a bad time playing against my ogors and I never have a bad time playing them. Would highly recommend.

Hi there I'm thinking of starting tzeentch partly because I like some of the ideas and some of the models but I'm worried they are not that fun for the opposition. That's certainly been my experience when I've been against them, with occasionally feeling totally outgunned and not in a good way. I would want to ensure that any list I started is fun for both parties. Thoughts?

I love this aesthetic so much. I hope malerions elves are like this and coming soon because I would buy them in a heartbeat. I've been brainstorming how to mix nighthaunt and tzeentch acolyte kits to make something like this for months but now it feels unnecessary. I should just wait for.more of this! If these instead end up all daughters of khaine I may have to start that army instead...

Hrogthron seems very strong to me. Remember, a hunter and single dog is already 140, so the trap and gnoblars are only 20 pts. A single deepstrike is useful for objectives and the 2 small units (wolf and gnobs) seem useful for screens, holding backfield objectives or keeping away deepstrikers. If I wasn't always making my hunter my general and losing the command trait I would take him without a doubt.

Limitations breed creativity. I think the current system is fine. As a counterpoint, obr petrifex elite have basically the best subfaction ability and command ability already and it actually decreases choice. Literally nothing else is ever taken. Making it totally free to pick would likely just enable that across the board. You are advocating for the supermarket bread isle approach endless choice but not really providing any more value. The game is in a remarkably good spot right now I think, with a very small number of disable exceptuons. Let's not mess it up with something horribly annoying like psychic awakening and it's rules bloat.

Has anyone used any of the big kharadron ships in tempests eye? The allure of +1 to hit and wound on an ironclad is tempting.... And +1 hit and wound on endrinriggers seems solid as well... Moreover you could put the general inside it, maybe with his advisor making them very very hard to snipe. You'd need a lot of small units to enable the 1 in 4 things.

I played this in a series of 1k games and it is absolutely brutal. I was undefeated for ages and my club was going to bring it to adepticon until everything happened.its incredibly hard to deal with at 1k points since it is fast, killy but also takes and holds objectives like a champ. And 3 drops is very low at 1k points so you can often give up turn one to capture your home objectives anyway

Does that imply that people are leaning towards a single ironclad over 1 or 2 frigates? I'm still worried that it would get killed and then my army would be pretty much dead right there. All those wounds with a 3+ rerollable, possible 6++ and some heals should be pretty hard to kill though Has anyone tried 2ironclads? The points are a little tight ...

Steam tank is a good pick. Just kinda bad at everything. Such a cool model too. I wish I could play the steam tank list. Thundertusks beastriders are just awful. 300 pts, for low damage and terrible shooting. Awful.

Does cavalry imply horses are other riders ok? There are many good cavalry armies but your choices are limited with true horses. Ironjawz, ogors, idoneth, slaanesh, khorne, nurgle and tzeentch all have riders which see competitive play. Even moonclan grots can do a good squig cavalry army. For true cavalry with horses, your best bet is Slaves to darkness (knights and marauder horsemen) Cities of sigmar tempests eye ( pistoliers are quite good) Legion of blood (blood knights)