SBGL problem fighting the Lum RL.

[Microwavedhamster]

Here is the thing, ive been fighting the Lumineth Realm Lords for a while, and when the Sevireth or the Hurakan spirit of the wind appear  on the battle ive concluded that i am in big trouble.

When it comes to magic nothing in the SBGL magic arsenal causes enough damage and you need a lot in prder to cast since LRL can unbind pretty much all the time, then well no range so thats out of the question, then i think melee but this creatures cant be melee'd because theu can retreat the moment shooting phase is over, so charges are avoided obviously ambush wont help cus its after movement phase and unearth from.graveyard and charge wont cus also the same thing, it can be completly avoided, and also the damage on the is massive by range so they are perfect to counter and snipe pretty much any hero wizard overlord monster behemoth etc.

Sevireth and 4 Spirit of the wind and 3 battleline if possible sentinel to shoot down and mortal wounds on fives, SBGL cant win its impossible there is nothing in this faction that can beat that.

[Sharklone]

If you are playing for fun, I'd be asking your opponent if they can run a more interactive army. While you may be able to win against that army with some clever positioning, I am yet to have a good time doing so.

[RuneBrush]

+++ MOD HAT +++ Just moved this into the Soulblight area of TGA as you'll likely get more focused responses

[JackStreicher]

Yes, the wind spirits need a nerf concerning their movement in every shooting phase. You could try to catch one with an endless spell?

[Liquidsteel]

Nagash can dust them, and is very difficult to kill. Especially if you also have lifeswarm to keep him topped up.

4 wind spirits will not have good casting, once you move forward you can deny things like power of hysh, speed of hysh and lambent light.

[Microwavedhamster]

3 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Nagash can dust them, and is very difficult to kill. Especially if you also have lifeswarm to keep him topped up.

4 wind spirits will not have good casting, once you move forward you can deny things like power of hysh, speed of hysh and lambent light.

Lets say he gets first round. 9W with 3+sv, 50% of failing a total slain unit spell + the chance of getting it unbind, 3 maybe 60 %chance of casting Arcane bolt prob 2 MW tops each one, (they have 8W) and pretty mediocre melee, he wasnt intended to fight tbh. very situational character that cost 900 points and can be easily be murdered by 200 pt characters.

VS (regardind the 4 spirit)

They get first turn aetherquartz each one plus Sevireth 4 shots 2+ 2+ 3rend d3 damage each 18/17 shots average = 36 wounds average... good luck saving that even with a 4+ ward save.

[Microwavedhamster]

5 hours ago, Sharklone said:

If you are playing for fun, I'd be asking your opponent if they can run a more interactive army. While you may be able to win against that army with some clever positioning, I am yet to have a good time doing so.

I cant, I play competitive, and to ask him that is like asking for mercy, i want to bath in elve blood.

[Microwavedhamster]

4 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Yes, the wind spirits need a nerf concerning their movement in every shooting phase. You could try to catch one with an endless spell?

Tried it all.endeless prison soulpike, nothing works to fast to far to hard to much bravery to powerfull and cheap

[Hamicron]

Yes multiple Spirits of the Wind present a problem for any army without much shooting, their armour is made of paper but that’s no help if you can’t get to them. Lumineth are pretty overtooled and lack any real weaknesses besides having relatively few bodies.

 

Ive been noodling around a list using multiple Mortis Engines. Like 4. Not exactly reliable weapons of war but they might have some legs with fewer big units around..

[Sception]

You could maybe try using some combination of gravesite deployment, deep striking vargheists, fast threats like Manny/Vlozd/Venga with pinions, and outflanking blood knights via LoNight or Kastelai rules to try to surround them?  Can't jump out of charge range of /everything/ if the entire table is within charge range of /something/.

It's a bit of a stretch though, admittedly.  Honestly, they're kind of dumb, and I do personally prefer the casual/narrative answer of just saying 'please don't run four'.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

14 hours ago, Microwavedhamster said:

Sevireth and 4 Spirit of the wind and 3 battleline if possible sentinel to shoot down and mortal wounds on fives, SBGL cant win its impossible there is nothing in this faction that can beat that.

The weakness of that list is that it only deals high-quality damage, but can't beat raw number of wounds.

G-Lords have great meat-tank battleline. 4 Sprits of the Wind and Sevireth are 1405 points. Kill on average 18.5 zombies per shooting phase. They can't even wipe 10 Direwolves in a single shooting phase. Both of those units are also summonable and have a very good chance to come back for free at some point.

The foxes also can't break a 3+ save character model on their own. Put a model on a 2+ ignore rend 1 with the Amulet of Destiny and they deal ~5 damage to it per shooting phase.

If your opponent wants a substantial number of Sentinels on top of the foxes, there is literally one way to do it: 2x10 Wardens and 20 Sentinels. That puts the list on 1995 points. No support heroes means that you will probably be able to unbind the spells the sentinels need a good number of times, making them a lot more managable. And even then, the whole Lumineth army (with Lambent Light and Power of Hysh) focus firing a kitted-out VLoZD (Amulet+All-Out Defense) does not even kill it on average. The list is absurdly pillow fisted.

Literally just ignore the foxes and win by points in round 3.

[Liquidsteel]

59 minutes ago, Microwavedhamster said:

Lets say he gets first round. 9W with 3+sv, 50% of failing a total slain unit spell + the chance of getting it unbind, 3 maybe 60 %chance of casting Arcane bolt prob 2 MW tops each one, (they have 8W) and pretty mediocre melee, he wasnt intended to fight tbh. very situational character that cost 900 points and can be easily be murdered by 200 pt characters.

VS (regardind the 4 spirit)

They get first turn aetherquartz each one plus Sevireth 4 shots 2+ 2+ 3rend d3 damage each 18/17 shots average = 36 wounds average... good luck saving that even with a 4+ ward save.

They can't Aetherquartz each one, in Syar two can receive it otherwise it's 1, but they're probably Helon with this build.

But anyway they are 2s and 3s so no pluses to hit required, and only Sevireth can be 2s and 2s with Finest Hour and maybe another with Inspired if they take the triumph.

You can give Nagash Finest Hour turn 1 and also All out Defence so +2 to save.

The "average" damage of 4x Wind Spirit and 1x Sevireth (under Finest Hour) is 9.72 damage against Finest Hour and All Out Defence Nagash (with 6+ ward).

Sentinels are only battle line if they take another unit of wardens. Being Helon they can also consider Windchargers.

Furthermore 4 x spirit build cannot be 1 drop, and Nagash can be 1 drop, so you can dictate first turn. Only way they get 1 drop is Sevireth and 2 x Spirit, which I have played against.

You can do Nagash, Necromancer and chaff in Legion of Night and it's actually a decent game, they can struggle to remove hordes unless they charge in, which the zombie 6" pile in can then work around, somewhat. Not being in combat gives you opportunities to Rally.

Of course, it's an uphill battle, but it's not totally unwinnable, in my opinion.

[Landohammer]

We have a similar issue with a LRL list dominating our meta. Its mostly just 30 sentinels + teclis though so its not as impossible as your situation. 

This is a bit of a stretch, but have you considered taking some allied shooting? 

Nighthaunt has two units with a surprising amount of ranged output. Specifically Olynder and Chainghasts.  Olynder is particularly effective vs Lumineth since her scream targets leadership, her vale doesn't have to roll to hit, and her grave sands can only target characters. Its just a matter of getting her close enough since she isn't super fast. She also is a 2 caster and has a respectable melee profile. 

Chainghasts aren't exactly pro snipers, but they are cheap and also fight pretty decently. A squad of 4 might give you the pressure you need to keep the foxes from doing whatever they want.  

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Microwavedhamster said:

They get first turn aetherquartz each one plus Sevireth 4 shots 2+ 2+ 3rend d3 damage each 18/17 shots average = 36 wounds average... good luck saving that even with a 4+ ward save.

The damage of Sevireth plus 4 Spirits is actually much lower.

Sevireth has a profile of 4 attacks, 2+/3+/-3/d3

A Spirit of the Wind has 4 attacks, 2+/3+/-2/d3. So overall 20 attacks.

As a rule of thumb, 2+/3+ is a ~55% conversion rate. You can buff Sevireth to 2+/2+ once, but the rest of the foxes seems to be stuck at 2+/3+ unless I am missing something. So we are looking at 20*0,55*2 damage before saves on average. That's ~22, which is awful for 1405 points.

Here are the numbers against different armour saves:

Save	5 Foxes
2+	11.85
3+	15.56
4+	19.26
5+	22.22
6+	22.22
-	22.22

And again with Deathless Minions factored in:

Save	5 Foxes (6+ ward)
2+	9.88
3+	12.96
4+	16.05
5+	18.52
6+	18.52
-	18.52

I really don't think the five foxes list looks very good. The Teclis+Sentinels list seems way more threatening.

[chosen_of_khaine]

I play both Lumineth and Soulblight, and Soulblight is in a great spot vs Lumineth. As stated above, Lumineth are great at throwing out high quality attacks, but don't have the quantity of attacks to be dealing with tons of bodies. Sevireth and Spirits of the Wind don't really put out that much damage for their points, and being able to fly around the board isn't as useful when each objective has 20+ bodies sitting on them. Zombies can also ignore unleash hell with their pile in shenanigans, gravesites allow huge board control vs Teclis based castle lists...the tools are there.

As others have said (and really this advice goes for a LOT of folks who complain about a certain match-up) go hard on the objectives - I beat a Sylvaneth player the other week without wiping a single one of his units off the table. I'm by no means saying it's an easy win, but Soulblight is in a great spot to be beating Lumineth.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

So I have been looking into how the five foxes list is supposed to win. The piece of the puzzle that was missing for me before is this:

Instead of hanging around outside of melee range the whole game, the foxes are supposed to charge your guys and pin them in. Their Helon "pile-in in any direction" shenennigans and "reduce pile-in distance by 2" keep them mostly safe from melee damage. And then they move out of combat with their "move in the shooting phase" ability on your turn before you get to really hit them back.

It seems to me that Gravelords are still in a fairly good position here, though. We have enough 6" pile in available to negate that part of the strategy. Blood Knights get their Riders of Ruin, so they can't easily be pinned. Big monsters like the VLoZD are fast enough to retreat out of combat and still get where they need to go (possibly capturing for 14 models in Vyrkos). Gravesite deployment makes it easier to start further up the board.

Overall, I think Gravelords are in a good place to combat the fox spam list, especially for a melee army.

[Pyrescribe]

Unsympathetic, aloof Lumineth player here...

Just play the Objectives and secure your Battle Tactics.

[Alfascozzesi]

On 9/17/2021 at 2:29 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

So I have been looking into how the five foxes list is supposed to win. The piece of the puzzle that was missing for me before is this:

Instead of hanging around outside of melee range the whole game, the foxes are supposed to charge your guys and pin them in. Their Helon "pile-in in any direction" shenennigans and "reduce pile-in distance by 2" keep them mostly safe from melee damage. And then they move out of combat with their "move in the shooting phase" ability on your turn before you get to really hit them back.

It seems to me that Gravelords are still in a fairly good position here, though. We have enough 6" pile in available to negate that part of the strategy. Blood Knights get their Riders of Ruin, so they can't easily be pinned. Big monsters like the VLoZD are fast enough to retreat out of combat and still get where they need to go (possibly capturing for 14 models in Vyrkos). Gravesite deployment makes it easier to start further up the board.

Overall, I think Gravelords are in a good place to combat the fox spam list, especially for a melee army.

Played the five fox army at the weekend and they were used to charge in / retreat 2.9” away and reduce my pile in to 1” so I couldn’t get into melee.

Won by ignoring them, taking out his battle line and playing tactics and objectives.

They can’t touch 2+ saves healing and I was running two dragons and Manny. They had a very low model count for objectives as did I but I had monsters.

 

 

 

[Skreech Verminking]

I’m personally more of a skaven player, and it is true that foxes are very hard to get rid of.

And they may as well just shoot your heroes of the table, yet, If your one of those players who love using lots of bodies, you actually have a good chance of take-stealing victory.

Against lumineth I personally often use a huge unit of clanrats which hidden in it there are 3Warpfire thrower weapon teams, who are able to remove all of his infantry turn1, if I wanted to do so.

at that point I basically won the objective game, since my opponent would now  need to get more the a 100bodies of the table to retake the objectives.

and that isn’t going to be easy with only 4foxes.

[Honk]

3 hours ago, Alfascozzesi said:

they were used to charge in / retreat 2.9” away and reduce my pile in to 1” so I couldn’t get into melee.

How did they successfully charge and then end up retreating to 2.9“ away? .5“ is successful charge and the pile in needs to end same or closer?

or is it some unknown cheese?

[Gery81]

5 hours ago, Honk said:

How did they successfully charge and then end up retreating to 2.9“ away? .5“ is successful charge and the pile in needs to end same or closer?

or is it some unknown cheese?

They can move during pile-in in any direction. Maybe it is Helon specific, but it's part of their strategy.

[Honk]

18 hours ago, Gery81 said:

They can move during pile-in in any direction

Sorry, I forgot LRL don’t do core rules 🤣

[Jaxler]

Wolves. 30-60 wolves. take gorslav and hide him behind terrain. start regenerating endless boys. His CP ability stacks with your base summoning, so you get the same number of guys per dead unit.

If he shoots the neccassry stuff to kill slav turn one (you need 14 wounds), take it as a victory, he's only 75 points.

Then take more annoying bodies if you want. I'd suggest 40-60 man zombie blobs because more board presence. I'd take the beast because wolves, too. A vampire lord on dummy dragon with +3 save is a good meme too. Maybe sneaky beaky a necromancer in. Just slide into objectives and pick your nose, bubble wrapping characters. In the list i built i have 50 calv bases and 80 infantry ones, you can deny some space. Just sit there, eat glue, and ask them if they're enjoying some quality interactive game play. Honestly, if you wanna hard counter them, convert the zombie dragon into more wolves n zombies. 

 

[Sonnenspeer]

Is this the "how-to-have-no-fun-at-all-cost" conversation?! 🤣

[Yondaime]

Feel you mate

 

Played ironjawz vs foxes, it was literally unplayable

 

Lumineth needs a serious nerfhammer