Kragnos discussion

[Rors]

560 seems reasonable to me but who knows, sometimes it feels like they Spin a wheel for points costs.

[Marcvs]

8 minutes ago, Rors said:

560 seems reasonable to me but who knows, sometimes it feels like they Spin a wheel for points costs.

Oh I agree with the "reasonable" (even too much), but I don't think he will be pointed so low. Whether for a matter of "perception" (a demi-god can't be pointed so low) or of wrong assumptions about his power, I would bet on 600+ points

[Rors]

6 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Oh I agree with the "reasonable" (even too much), but I don't think he will be pointed so low. Whether for a matter of "perception" (a demi-god can't be pointed so low) or of wrong assumptions about his power, I would bet on 600+ points

I think at 560 he'd be expensive but not unusable. Not something I'd take to a tournament if the goal was to win at any cost but possible viable with the right list, skill and maybe some luck. 600+ points and he really needs a faction mechanic from broken realms.

[Pitloze]

690 is a mind boggling number. More expensive than Teclis...  1vs1 Kragnos might demolish him but in a battle Teclis is just so much better. If Kragnos gave his magic immunity to other destruction units things might change. His broken realms rules need to be BROKEN for him to be worth 690. Which I don't think it will.

People already brought up the point of him not fitting in a SoB army. Gordrakk does fit pts wise but can't be allied in... so why can't Kragnos at least be..? It just... I don't know... Why market him as being able to fit into ANY Destro army without actually making sure he can lol.

I'm tempted to skip him and just get a mega tbh.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Pitloze

[Scurvydog]

11 minutes ago, Pitloze said:

690 is a mind boggling number. More expensive than Teclis...  1vs1 Kragnos might demolish him but in a battle Teclis is just so much better. If Kragnos gave his magic immunity to other destruction units things might change. His broken realms rules need to be BROKEN for him to be worth 690. Which I don't think it will.

People already brought up the point of him not fitting in a SoB army. Gordrakk does fit pts wise but can't be allied in... so why can't Kragnos at least be..? It just... I don't know... Why market him as being able to fit into ANY Destro army without actually making sure he can lol.

I'm tempted to skip him and just get a mega tbh.

I don't know what they were thinking with that Warscroll, he brings nothing to the forces around him except +1 bravery, and even that is compromised by the fact he might damage ANYONE near him if he takes in damage in a phase. Unless you want your boyz or gargants to suffer mortal wounds after Kragnos eats some MW spamming X archers fire, then he requires some awkward 6" bubble clear around him, but within 12" if you need that +1 bravery. That is basically the only rules he has, and they conflict with each other!

His charge damage is strong, but as everything is just beatstick stuff, he is just defined by the point cost at that point, there is no force multiplier in him, which is the entire purpose of all the other god level characters. They define their armies, he does not at all.

Also the god of earthquakes makes no earthquakes at all, super boring. At least it saves me 125 EUR...

[C0deb1ue]

4 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

I don't know what they were thinking with that Warscroll, he brings nothing to the forces around him except +1 bravery, and even that is compromised by the fact he might damage ANYONE near him if he takes in damage in a phase. Unless you want your boyz or gargants to suffer mortal wounds after Kragnos eats some MW spamming X archers fire, then he requires some awkward 6" bubble clear around him, but within 12" if you need that +1 bravery. That is basically the only rules he has, and they conflict with each other!

His charge damage is strong, but as everything is just beatstick stuff, he is just defined by the point cost at that point, there is no force multiplier in him, which is the entire purpose of all the other god level characters. They define their armies, he does not at all.

Also the god of earthquakes makes no earthquakes at all, super boring. At least it saves me 125 EUR...

I unfortunately agree with most of this. I think the design for the "god" could have brought something different/nuanced or actually supportive... He is just like a slightly more hitty stonehorn....but actually lacks all the good bits of a stonehorn.

Design-wise he is just really boring as a convoluted way of calculating mortal wounds on the charge is not interesting and it's selling point of 36 mortal wounds is just a non-event in reality....

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by C0deb1ue

[Pitloze]

4 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

I don't know what they were thinking with that Warscroll, he brings nothing to the forces around him except +1 bravery, and even that is compromised by the fact he might damage ANYONE near him if he takes in damage in a phase. Unless you want your boyz or gargants to suffer mortal wounds after Kragnos eats some MW spamming X archers fire, then he requires some awkward 6" bubble clear around him, but within 12" if you need that +1 bravery. That is basically the only rules he has, and they conflict with each other!

His charge damage is strong, but as everything is just beatstick stuff, he is just defined by the point cost at that point, there is no force multiplier in him, which is the entire purpose of all the other god level characters. They define their armies, he does not at all.

Also the god of earthquakes makes no earthquakes at all, super boring. At least it saves me 125 EUR...

I'm not 100% sure they did this for the other BR books since as a destro player I skipped all of them. But did they review rules for those leading up to pre-order? I feel it's kinda weird that they released his full warscoll but not a peep about his own faction.

[PainfullyMediocre]

8 minutes ago, Pitloze said:

I'm not 100% sure they did this for the other BR books since as a destro player I skipped all of them. But did they review rules for those leading up to pre-order? I feel it's kinda weird that they released his full warscoll but not a peep about his own faction.

I think they released his rules just to tempt people in. The other BR books were updated characters and warscrolls, so the community had a frame of reference for it, we didn't really have much to go on from Kragnos. Destruction guy with shield and club was about it

[Maogrim]

Teclis didn't really change for Broken Realms: Teclis...apart from gaining six new spells. His cost stayed exactly the same. 

[Lord Krungharr]

I went ahead and prepaid/preordered a Kragnos.  I do like the model, and am hoping we'll be pleasantly surprised at his points cost and/or BR rules accompaniments.  However my model purchases are often like my stock picks, they perform like ****** once I buy them.  Guess I shoulda gotten like 14 more Leadbelchers to make an Underguts army.

Oh well, at least AMC stonk is up!

[C0deb1ue]

Rumours are he costs 760 and there is no subfaction in the BR book... yikes

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by C0deb1ue

[Chumphammer]

19 minutes ago, C0deb1ue said:

Rumours are he costs 760 and there is no subfaction in the BR book... yikes

 

If hes 760 and no subfaction he can ****** right off lol

Id buy him if 500 or less. Maybe 600. But 760...thats a lot of squigs

[Reuben Parker]

Wait until we see a screenshot as I’ve heard different people saying price points all over the range. 
 

I will not understand it if he’s that high as he would so obviously be unplayable and one of the most expensive models in the game whilst having zero utility, fly, ignore instant death, shrug, keywords etc etc. And dies relatively easily. 

[LuminethMage]

20 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Yep I'm thinking strictly in terms of competitive lists.  I'm sure Kragnos will be fine (or even dominant) on the mid tables or garagehammer.

Not sure how accurate that is...the first thing I see on there is Matty Manzl finishing 1st of 70 players at Vic GT, which is definitely not correct because I drew with him in Round 3 (Knife to the Heart).  Seraphon (Fangs of Sotek) won that event.

Looks like Pat's already doing well running 40 Sentinels, and Josh McKinley 30.  Assuming you don't get off Lambent Light, but do get off Sunmetal Weapons, 30 should still be enough to do him in two turns (although you could easily fail Sunmetal once in which case you need to spike a little or do a few wounds from another source). 

A month before that Ryan Chamley finished 5th at Summer Smash (I beat him in Round 3 on his way to 4-1 since you ask!), and in fairness he only had 20 Sentinels from memory.  Hopefully (from my viewpoint) max 20 does becomes the norm - if they're just there to zap little support heroes without worrying about LOS, then 20 is plenty.  

I am seeing more lists tending toward Sentinel spam in competitive Australian conversations, but I obviously accept that's purely anecdotal unless and until we see it on the tabletop though.

Fair.

Thanks for clarifying : ). I also don't know 100% about the accuracy of course. Yeah, in strictly competitive lists, 30 plus Sentinels are more common. And sadly, with all the new high save stuff coming out, it likely won't get less. I still think most list will be 20 to 30 - it becomes just very restrictive to play with more. Your whole list depends on them. Still who knows how AoS3 goes, if a high Sentinel build turns out the most successful build, then you'll see a lot of them in competitive list of course.  

If the new Hurakan units turn out to be good, then it would be far less I'm sure. There are some people of course who love to play with a lot of ranked archers, but judging from the LRL Reddit/Discord/Facebook groups I think most people rather would not use a lot of them if they have a choice. I usually play with 20 - but I don't play on a competitive level. 

30 with Power of Hysh can do some work, even without Lambent Light, that's true. But if you manage to get him into the LRL before he dies at least he'll do some work, as we have no chaf. : ) . Let's see. And congrats on winning that match : )

[zilberfrid]

Casting level 5 means only 1 in 9 will fail.

Now if it needed to be cast on the target with some 12" range, it would be better.

[DestructionFranz]

Kragnos 760 

Ahahhahahahaahhaahaaha. They are drunk. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Boingrot Bouncer]

It feels like Kragnos is dead on arrival, 760 points will give me 35 Boingrots, a command point and 10 points to spend on something else. And I also have to spend MSP 125 euro to buy it to replace something in my Squig or Troll-army.

Sure, if I fight a monster he would be good, but most of times you don't fight monster...and 35 Boingrots (or whatever I take instead) will give a lot more board controll and chance to control objectives.

 

[Pitloze]

760 pts was him laying on the ground bleeding. Having no subfaction is the killshot.

 

[Scurvydog]

760 pts with only 18 wounds and no save to mitigate mortal wounds etc is insanely bad. Who in their right mind could consider that balanced at all. He has no synergies or allegiance abilities and his only really unique rule is to have a chart to see if he cries when hurt... I am just mindblown at how bad this turned out. 

Not even any other new rules for anything destruction related... guess this is just in the bin and wait for AoS 3.0

[C0deb1ue]

2 hours ago, Boingrot Bouncer said:

It feels like Kragnos is dead on arrival, 760 points will give me 35 Boingrots, a command point and 10 points to spend on something else. And I also have to spend MSP 125 euro to buy it to replace something in my Squig or Troll-army.

Sure, if I fight a monster he would be good, but most of times you don't fight monster...and 35 Boingrots (or whatever I take instead) will give a lot more board controll and chance to control objectives.

 

600 points of boingrots would do 15 MW on the charge (avg) which is more than Kragnos vs monsters or not... and they can actually get there and count for 30 models.... and they don't explode your own models but wait.... no 200 point +1 bravery aura.... thats why he is so expensive

Edited May 28, 2021 by C0deb1ue

[Boingrot Bouncer]

3 minutes ago, C0deb1ue said:

600 points of boingrots would do 15 MW on the charge (avg) which is more that Kragnos Average vs monsters or not... and they can actually get there and count for 30 models.... and they don't explode your own models but wait.... no 200 point +1 bravery aura.... thats why he is so expensive

Yes, that needs to be wholly within 12, but not within 6 since then his shout will do 1D3 MW which will negate the +1 bravery.

[PainfullyMediocre]

I had a read of Platic Craic's blog on Kragnos, would he even be able to benefit from GA:Destruction's Big Waagh ability?

[Dejnar]

All may not be lost!

[OrcaLullaby]

2 hours ago, C0deb1ue said:

600 points of boingrots would do 15 MW on the charge (avg) which is more than Kragnos vs monsters or not... and they can actually get there and count for 30 models.... and they don't explode your own models but wait.... no 200 point +1 bravery aura.... thats why he is so expensive

I think that to compare it with non heroes is not fair as non heroes units are always more point efficient.

 

A correct thing to do will be to compare it with a similar center piece like for instance arhchaon. Let's see. Archaon is 800 points and what do we get with this extra 40 points? a similar stat ines. a 3+ save which is worst but a 20 wounds count which is better and can heal himself. Also it has far better mobility as it can fly and move 14" at full bracket. It does not mortal wounds on charge but it has a breath attack that causes mortal wounds and can heal himself. Also it has far better synergy. A +2 bravery aura which is twice as good as the Kragnos +1 aura. It has 2 command abilities and can cast and unbind 2 spells. Kragnos only beat him with magic protection but not for far as Archaon can auto dispel endless spells and can unbind 2 spells.

 

Yes I do think that unless something really special happen in aos 3.0. he is over costed for good margin.

[Boingrot Bouncer]

10 minutes ago, OrcaLullaby said:

I think that to compare it with non heroes is not fair as non heroes units are always more point efficient.

 

A correct thing to do will be to compare it with a similar center piece like for instance arhchaon. Let's see. Archaon is 800 points and what do we get with this extra 40 points? a similar stat ines. a 3+ save which is worst but a 20 wounds count which is better and can heal himself. Also it has far better mobility as it can fly and move 14" at full bracket. It does not mortal wounds on charge but it has a breath attack that causes mortal wounds and can heal himself. Also it has far better synergy. A +2 bravery aura which is twice as good as the Kragnos +1 aura. It has 2 command abilities and can cast and unbind 2 spells. Kragnos only beat him with magic protection but not for far as Archaon can auto dispel endless spells and can unbind 2 spells.

 

Yes I do think that unless something really special happen in aos 3.0. he is over costed for good margin.

Yes, in a way it is unfair to do so, but when the buffs you get from the hero pretty much amount to nothing (+1 bravery but risk of MW to your own unit) what use is that hero but to do damage.

But as you also show very nicely in your comparison with Archaon he is pretty bad as a hero. Right now the only hope for Kragnos is something in the battletome or the coming destruction battletome, but the people peordering him must have shrunked a lot when the points was leaked.