Sons of Behemat Discussion 👣

[Tropical Ghost General]

1 minute ago, C0deb1ue said:

these guys  just have to take it to the face. 

a 40pt, cast 5, shackles, can be placed in a triangle and wrap the base of a mega gargant. This completely immobilises it with the current rules.

Warp lighting vortex, can wrap multiple models.

[Beliman]

2 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Why is no one discussing the fact that this army has no interaction with endless spells?

Ben Johnson said that SoB can throw Endless Spells. Talk with your OT or with your oponent to do play as AoS designers want. If that's not the case, then just wait for the FAQ.

Another option could be to use an Aborrant Archregent as Mercenary to throw some Endless Spells (I know that there are people that will say that it's not legal because they were "updated with GHB2019" but I find that argument a bit poor to believe).

 

[Tropical Ghost General]

Just now, Beliman said:

Ben Johnson said that SoB can throw Endless Spells

He also famously made comments about skull cannons on the official GW podcast, which drove sales and was then FAQ'd a few weeks later.

[Beliman]

3 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

He also famously made comments about skull cannons on the official GW podcast, which drove sales and was then FAQ'd a few weeks later.

Well, you don't have any other option until they release SoB FAQ, so, it's up to you. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Beliman

[C0deb1ue]

5 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

He also famously made comments about skull cannons on the official GW podcast, which drove sales and was then FAQ'd a few weeks later.

Yeah, I think you wait for FAQs if you can as GW is literally only about sales. Gargants are already their price model pushed to the max.

Edited October 12, 2020 by C0deb1ue

[Tropical Ghost General]

I'm just surprised that they didn't give them something like a 5+ ignore spell shrug, if they were going to make them basically a non-magical army, that has almost no counter to any magic. As stated before, it's a headscratcher. 

[C0deb1ue]

Yeah, strange to have a bunch of Behemat's sons being essentially non-magic creatures... like maybe some sort of waaaagh style thing or just "Spirit of Ghyr"... who knows, anything would have been fine... they feel so incomplete in a lot of ways.

It seems like they think their moderate survivability and wound count is the be-all answer to everything at the moment.

Edited October 12, 2020 by C0deb1ue

[EasyArmy]

I wonder if a table like the Big Name table on the Ogre Tyrant warscroll could have been added to create a bit more customization to such a large and interesting model?

[Mutton]

I don't know why they think 35 wounds is going to stand up to much in this game. Magic and mortals are the meta and a single unit of competent horde infantry can bring a mega down in 2 combat phases. I think most games with SoB are going to end by the third battle round, usually with the gargants getting whomped by combined arms. Any kind of shrug would have helped immensely.

Either that or they'll just get mucked up with crappy 5-man units. I'm really hoping their Longshanks lets them walk away from combat (but I doubt it will).

[Reuben Parker]

59 minutes ago, Mutton said:

I don't know why they think 35 wounds is going to stand up to much in this game. Magic and mortals are the meta and a single unit of competent horde infantry can bring a mega down in 2 combat phases. I think most games with SoB are going to end by the third battle round, usually with the gargants getting whomped by combined arms. Any kind of shrug would have helped immensely.

Either that or they'll just get mucked up with crappy 5-man units. I'm really hoping their Longshanks lets them walk away from combat (but I doubt it will).

FLoSH are seen as competitive and they’re 13/14 wounds on 3+ 5+++ shrug (Equivalent to roughly 21 wounds)so considerably less tanky per point than a mega especially vs mortals. If your worried about hordes then that’s where stomper tribe excels or breaker taking +1 to hit vs command models.

stomper tribe has a re roll saves item and breaker has 6+++ shrug item.  
 

against shooting / magic SoB are going to be 140 odd wounds however it’s built and fast with some ok ranged sniping. Apart from things like endless spell locking which may well get FAQ for longshanks they’re not really anymore vulnerable to it than other melee armies. Also it’s easy for SoB to space out so spells don’t hit multiple units and they can take advantage of shrug terrain better than any other army. 
 

Their offence and defence when broken down seems actually perfectly fine. It’s more screening etc where they’re at a huge disadvantage. 
 

maybe some points tweaks may happen (180 for a maneater seems high) but at most I expect SoB to be able to fit in one extra maneater. 

[Latty]

3 hours ago, Reuben Parker said:

however I will push back on saying they hit like wet noodles. On page 42 someone has done a breakdown of their expected damage vs 4+ saves. In summary 

kraken 9.27

stomper 12.3

breaker 13.34

maneater 5.03

and they compared to FLoSH (a feared hero on monster and sees competitive play) 12.82

 

Good breakdown. I think a bigger problem to consider is their durability, especially how they could stand up against heavy shooting builds like flamer spam. Suffice it to say it doesn't look great.

 

[decker_cky]

The list is ~140 wounds. Not super tough, but not exactly fragile. 

However, because of how Sons models count as 10+ models until they die, the army is more resilient in terms of objectives than many 160+ wound armies. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

So listened to the brutal HWG AoS monday episode tonight review of the battletome. 

A few points to note:

- army can't cast endless spells, as krakeneater artefact doesn't give the wizard keyword. Same for dispelling endless spells. 

- warstomper, with 1 big and 9 small is probably the strongest build. 

- due to an FAQ on allowed publications, the 2 merc companies from Forbidden Power are currently matched play legal. So ally in an archregent for a double caster to get those endless spells casts/dispels, plus summoning 20 ghouls for backline objective holding/screens. 

- Longshanks ability doesn't allow you to move over units in standard movement. Base of mega-garant is 130mm + 3" stay out of range of opponent + 25mm minimum base size of opposing unit + another 3" stay out of range of opponent from otherside of their base = 12.10", so it only works retreating or running. It can't be used during the charge phase or piling in, as they aren't normal moves. Without run and charge, it's not great and very situational, as retreating or running means no charges. (this info is from the plastic craic review) 

There is lots of other info from the HWG episode and they hit a lot of points home. Highly recommend listening to it. 

I still plan to do the army, but at least now I'm not going into it with rose tinted titanic warclubs 😂

[Trout]

7 hours ago, Kasper said:

I have been semi tempted at jumping at the SoB but one thing that kept me from it was painting such huge models. This seems rather easy and very doable for someone like me. Im sure the paintjob could have been done better, but it looks imo great and I would happily throw that bad boy on the table and stomp some guys.

I've actually found that larger models are easier to paint. Painting tiny straps, belts, necklaces, teeth, and other minutiae on regular sized models is what I find most challenging since staying within the lines can be so difficult when you're dealing with tiny things like that. You don't run into that issue as much with larger models; you get a lot more room to move the brush around even if you have shaky hands or sub-par fine motor skills.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Trout

[Trout]

22 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

So listened to the brutal HWG AoS monday episode tonight review of the battletome. 

A few points to note:

- army can't cast endless spells, as krakeneater artefact doesn't give the wizard keyword. Same for dispelling endless spells. 

- warstomper, with 1 big and 9 small is probably the strongest build. 

- due to an FAQ on allowed publications, the 2 merc companies from Forbidden Power are currently matched play legal. So ally in an archregent for a double caster to get those endless spells casts/dispels, plus summoning 20 ghouls for backline objective holding/screens. 

- Longshanks ability doesn't allow you to move over units in standard movement. Base of mega-garant is 130mm + 3" stay out of range of opponent + 25mm minimum base size of opposing unit + another 3" stay out of range of opponent from otherside of their base = 12.10", so it only works retreating or running. It can't be used during the charge phase or piling in, as they aren't normal moves. Without run and charge, it's not great and very situational, as retreating or running means no charges. (this info is from the plastic craic review) 

There is lots of other info from the HWG episode and they hit a lot of points home. Highly recommend listening to it. 

I still plan to do the army, but at least now I'm not going into it with rose tinted titanic warclubs 😂

Where can I find this episode?

 

Personally, I never expected it to be a competitive army. I'm looking forward to having a fun army that lets me play games where I don't have to think too much or keep track of too many things. I used to have an army like that, my Beastclaw Raiders, and then they released a battletome that completely changed the way they play. It'll be nice to have an army where I can just stomp around without having to keep track of a bunch of things again.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Trout

[Nezzhil]

37 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

So listened to the brutal HWG AoS monday episode tonight review of the battletome. 

A few points to note:

- army can't cast endless spells, as krakeneater artefact doesn't give the wizard keyword. Same for dispelling endless spells. 

- warstomper, with 1 big and 9 small is probably the strongest build. 

- due to an FAQ on allowed publications, the 2 merc companies from Forbidden Power are currently matched play legal. So ally in an archregent for a double caster to get those endless spells casts/dispels, plus summoning 20 ghouls for backline objective holding/screens. 

- Longshanks ability doesn't allow you to move over units in standard movement. Base of mega-garant is 130mm + 3" stay out of range of opponent + 25mm minimum base size of opposing unit + another 3" stay out of range of opponent from otherside of their base = 12.10", so it only works retreating or running. It can't be used during the charge phase or piling in, as they aren't normal moves. Without run and charge, it's not great and very situational, as retreating or running means no charges. (this info is from the plastic craic review) 

There is lots of other info from the HWG episode and they hit a lot of points home. Highly recommend listening to it. 

I still plan to do the army, but at least now I'm not going into it with rose tinted titanic warclubs 😂

One point: Ben, the designer, said in Twitter that they can cast endless with the artefact. It is an errata.

[Reuben Parker]

46 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

So listened to the brutal HWG AoS monday episode tonight review of the battletome. 

A few points to note:

- army can't cast endless spells, as krakeneater artefact doesn't give the wizard keyword. Same for dispelling endless spells. 

- warstomper, with 1 big and 9 small is probably the strongest build. 

- due to an FAQ on allowed publications, the 2 merc companies from Forbidden Power are currently matched play legal. So ally in an archregent for a double caster to get those endless spells casts/dispels, plus summoning 20 ghouls for backline objective holding/screens. 

- Longshanks ability doesn't allow you to move over units in standard movement. Base of mega-garant is 130mm + 3" stay out of range of opponent + 25mm minimum base size of opposing unit + another 3" stay out of range of opponent from otherside of their base = 12.10", so it only works retreating or running. It can't be used during the charge phase or piling in, as they aren't normal moves. Without run and charge, it's not great and very situational, as retreating or running means no charges. (this info is from the plastic craic review) 

There is lots of other info from the HWG episode and they hit a lot of points home. Highly recommend listening to it. 

I still plan to do the army, but at least now I'm not going into it with rose tinted titanic warclubs 😂

These are good points my take :

wait for faq on longshanks for endless spells and Also casting them see if it gets added or not. 
 

the 1 big 9 small does seem good, personally I haven’t gone that route mainly as it makes leader role scoring missions a real uphill struggle.  Then in terms of rule of cool I want a couple of Mega. 

forbidden power is interesting with the merc companies do you have to take a leader role or could you say take 2 grimwrath berserkers?

I was wondering if longshanks wouldn’t make it over a base due to the huge pie plate so nice to see someone math it. The rule still has applications either clipping a base or coming within 3” as part of a move somewhere. 

———

I agree the army is going to have its issues maybe FAQ and some slight tweaks to points may solve it to a degree. All that aside an army with zero screening will always have a relatively low ceiling in competitive play. However for me I really enjoy using and trying to make work armies that are weaker and non meta. 
 

I would love to see a minimal points tweak to allow 3 gatebreaker and 3x1 Mancrusher or evening slightly larger points tweaks to allow 2 mega 2x3 Mancrusher 1 Mancrusher. 
 

 

[Tropical Ghost General]

46 minutes ago, Trout said:

Where can I find this episode?

http://www.twitch.tv/thehonestwargamer/v/768422429?sr=a&t=8935s

[Frowny]

They seem pretty reasonable to me in terms of power level Some fun tricks. I don't think their be too weak either. For example, 4 megas would be 140 wounds at a 4+ save. That is actually quite respectable for a whole army. Each one hits almost as hard as a Stonehorn while being substantially sturdier against all attacks. 

I don't think they'll be the strongest but I think they will be appropriately competitive for the fact that you are playing a handful of giants!

I'm thinking warstomper, gate breaker, 6xancrushers in the stomper tribe will be the strongest list. They already count for 10 models so counting for more won't be that necessary, bit the extra hitting power on the mancrushers is incredible.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Frowny

[Baron Klatz]

Been watching youtube reports on them and i'm super sold on a Taker Tribe. I already loved it's design and was taking it as a merc for my Order forces (especially my Deepkin it goes hand-in-hand with) but I like the objective taking playstyle and wizard tricks he adds.

On Endless Spells i'll only go narrative for now until an official errata hits their facebook.(honestly can't see why not. Big lads need big spells after all! )

2 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

due to an FAQ on allowed publications, the 2 merc companies from Forbidden Power are currently matched play legal. So ally in an archregent for a double caster to get those endless spells casts/dispels, plus summoning 20 ghouls for backline objective holding/screens. 

Ohh, that's big news!

I know it's not optimal but I'm thinking Fyreslayer mercs. Mine can switch back and forth with who's doing the mercing, I can make a fun Aqshy sea & fried fish theme out of it and the Flamespitter Magmic Invocation can be useful anti-horde artillery to keep the Takers from being held up.

 

[Scythian]

Ironically, this very pricey army is actually a phenomenal starter army for kids. Children love big stompy monsters and with a low model count, they’d definitely be good for kids to focus on. And yet, once you add up the actual cost, it’s probably no worse than your average 2k army that a kid may get into. 

[Baron Klatz]

I feel that's helpful with their mercenary focus.

Get one big boi, a cheap army to build around it like Easy to Build Stormcasts or NightHaunt, which also come in boardgames like Crypt Hunter or Stormvault that can be found at places like wal-mart or Barnes and Noble that kids can enjoy, and build up over time from there as you save up your money for more biggins down the road.

[Kasper]

6 hours ago, Trout said:

I've actually found that larger models are easier to paint. Painting tiny straps, belts, necklaces, teeth, and other minutiae on regular sized models is what I find most challenging since staying within the lines can be so difficult when you're dealing with tiny things like that. You don't run into that issue as much with larger models; you get a lot more room to move the brush around even if you have shaky hands or sub-par fine motor skills.

That is maybe true. For smaller models the expectation of the paintjob isnt high, especially for Hordes. Nobody really care how well you painted a Clanrat because there will likely be 40 if not 100 or more side by side. You dont really notice it. On a model like Archaon it is a huge centerpiece model, so I feel like the expectations of the paintjob is much, much bigger. You can cut corners on small chaff models because it is tiny and you wont see it, but you will on Archaon. 

[Baron Klatz]

I haven't seen this posted yet but great vid by Dark Artisan on getting more leverage on one kit. (His Mega-gargant battle reports are fun too)

 

[Scurvydog]

From what I have seen the Warstomper seems to be the more fighty and versatile choice overall, both in a SoB army and as a merc. The merc edition -1 to be hit after jump and down is rather nice and can be really annoying if you get it stuck in somewhere good, as it reduces the hit chance of enemy units, rather than just being the gargant that is harder to hit.

For a SoB army the reroll saves artifact seems to be the highest survivability value, combined with the d3 command points trait, as the gargants are incredibly starved for this and the stomper tribe makes them better. The Stomper tribe +1/+2 damage against large units can also nearly triple the output of mancrushers and will be mandatory to stand a chance dealing with a large amount of army types, anything from Clanrats and grots to Mortek guard and Phoenix guard, without this extra damage they will not punch hard enough. Would you rather kill 30 clanrats with 3 mancrushers and grab that objective, or kill 10 and grab it due to scoring with taker tribe? I'd prefer just to kill them and in turn reduce incoming damage as well.

With Stomper tribe commands you can also pull of some tricks, like auto 6 to run on multiple units, and they can run+charge, or have a bunch of mancrushers throw rocks if you really need to get that dude dead.

The Gatebreaker gargant and tribe seems to be the worst by far, although it will be very annoying for Sylvaneth players to play against, but even if the possible +1 to hit is nice, they just got far less options and utility and also the worst traits and artifacts. The merc also has the worst ability.

Common for all the SoB armies is that running a second mega gargant seems less impressive, the trait and artifact combo seems important for them to be worth their points, and the special abilities from the mercs just barely makes up for anything as is. Running only 1 hero is very risky though. 

My preferred build if I expand to a full SoB army instead of just a merc, would probably be a Stomper tribe with of course a stomper general, then a kraken eater to punt objectives and be annoying and probably 1x3 mancrushers and a 2 man crusher and 1 lone crusher. The lone guys job will be to zone out deepstrikers, hold a backline objective or simply stand in front of something more important.

It does puzzle me that they did not add much more customization though, I thought that would have been given considering the few models. Sticking to 3 artifacts for 2 of the tribes is just ridiculous, at least that should have been a small point to customize. But considering Ben wrote the book that does not surprise me, I have not forgiven him for the Warclans book yet.

On a positive note the lore is really cool and will probably please most gargant fans.