Sons of Behemat Discussion 👣

[Dankboss]

Just now, Nezzhil said:

They aren't efficient being merc, the cost a lot of points and you lose too much bodies, and the Gargants don't do enough damage to break the game in your favour.

I think in some armies they could work. I like Grunnock for the massive -1 to hit he projects.

[Reuben Parker]

Yeah I’m going to run the army as is but also planning to fit the chaos merc into my chaos dwarves. They lack a high rend beat stick and his -1 stomp aura will combine nicely with the -1 trait on the general. 
 

army has ranged and great chaff killing 12 fireborn average 40 damage but all at rend 0 so his high rend will definitely come in handy. 

[robotnik_taco]

As longshanks currently works you can't even walk over a one row deep screen of models on 25mm bases with the stomper and krakeneater, and can squeeze it in by a few tenths of a mm with the other guy. I know there's been a few underwhelming battletomes here and there but if one ever needed a day one patch......

[Moogypies]

12 minutes ago, Dankboss said:

I think in some armies they could work. I like Grunnock for the massive -1 to hit he projects.

Im thinking they're not too bad in a Big Waaagh list that runs Gordrakk who can give them that tasty +1 to hit, combined with the -1 to hit probably at least half decent.

[Emperor of Zhong]

22 minutes ago, robotnik_taco said:

As longshanks currently works you can't even walk over a one row deep screen of models on 25mm bases with the stomper and krakeneater, and can squeeze it in by a few tenths of a mm with the other guy. I know there's been a few underwhelming battletomes here and there but if one ever needed a day one patch......

I mean if you allowed to move out of combat without retreating Longshanks let’s you cycle charge. 

But that's another confusing RAW argument. 

[Mebig]

I know that I am not an active writer on the forms but a long time lurker. I just gave this to Games Workshop. 

 

With the lazy rules and overly prices models you (Games Workshop) should be ashamed. 0 Wargear options, 0 Mega Gargant Customization, 0 Batallions, 0 EFFORT! You (Games Workshop) advertised that the mega gargants were going to be the Biggest!!! yet they are under 7 inches tall. You are charging $195 USD for this and it pales in comparison to other big kits for the 2X price hike. I know there are extra bits but really... Whomever approved this design concept needs to be reprimanded.

 

If I get any response I will post it.

[novakai]

7 minutes ago, Mebig said:

I know that I am not an active writer on the forms but a long time lurker. I just gave this to Games Workshop. 

 

With the lazy rules and overly prices models you (Games Workshop) should be ashamed. 0 Wargear options, 0 Mega Gargant Customization, 0 Batallions, 0 EFFORT! You (Games Workshop) advertised that the mega gargants were going to be the Biggest!!! yet they are under 7 inches tall. You are charging $195 USD for this and it pales in comparison to other big kits for the 2X price hike. I know there are extra bits but really... Whomever approved this design concept needs to be reprimanded.

 

If I get any response I will post it.

Ummm i don't think you will, your aggressive tone and berating an unknown employee is not going to help you or getting any response.

if you wanted a response you should have wrote it more professionally , be polite, and added your criticism in a more constructive manner. this come out as hate mail.

 

[Sttufe]

24 minutes ago, Mebig said:

I know that I am not an active writer on the forms but a long time lurker. I just gave this to Games Workshop. 

 

With the lazy rules and overly prices models you (Games Workshop) should be ashamed. 0 Wargear options, 0 Mega Gargant Customization, 0 Batallions, 0 EFFORT! You (Games Workshop) advertised that the mega gargants were going to be the Biggest!!! yet they are under 7 inches tall. You are charging $195 USD for this and it pales in comparison to other big kits for the 2X price hike. I know there are extra bits but really... Whomever approved this design concept needs to be reprimanded.

 

If I get any response I will post it.

I would say if you want any response back you might want to start off by eliminating exclamation marks and capitalized letters, it makes you sound like a whining child. I agree with the points, but would definitely want to not send that in order to get a response. As novakai said, make it more professional in order to get a response from a GW employee rather than a glance and a trash from their relatively competent customer support.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Sttufe

[Lord Krungharr]

Do the merc Megas count as multiple models for objective purposes?  That would make them worth it for some armies, like an army full of Bullgors for example.  But even if they don't, the can storm an objective and conquer it in many cases.  At least the 2 of them hit on 3+; the gatecrasher though only on a 4+?  That sucks.

 

 

[Reuben Parker]

 Breaker Tribe breakdown. 
 

I thought I would do a little write up on the breaker tribe as I see on this forum and other sources them being rated often as the worst tribe. 
 

I have them second behind stomper but with being more consistent as stomper may have lists where no units of 10+ models exist. 
 

+1 damage vs units in cover. People will rightly say that this will never kick in and that’s correct as your opponent won’t let it. In essence the rule reads opponents don’t get the benefit of cover to their save and that’s pretty strong as a passive buff. A number of heroes and also re roll save units love to sit in cover. 
 

The smaller giants destroying terrain is meh as the gatebreaker does it so much easier anyway and it’s not going to be super common. 
 

+1 to hit should be taken vs either heroes and wizards or command models as this will cover the most units. 
 

heroes is Normally a smaller % of your opponents army but a lot of lists fall apart without buff heroes. It also works well with gatebreaker very powerful ranged attacks. 2 gatebreaker with a blob of 3 giants throwing rocks will kill a support hero a turn on average. 
 

general upgrades my go to will be +2 attacks trait and 6+++ shrug. Although I could see going shrug and +5 wounds as then it takes on average 48 wounds to kill him. 
 

Running breakers you get to run the mega with the most native damage output and is the only sub faction that buffs the damage of its mega. Going from 4+ to 3+ on the flail will be a 33% damage increase. 
 

I would run a double gatebreaker 3x1 1x3 setup and I think it will be a strong build for SoB. Giving strong character sniping a tough to kill general and very high -3 rend output. 

[Melcavuk]

14 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

 Breaker Tribe breakdown. 
 

I thought I would do a little write up on the breaker tribe as I see on this forum and other sources them being rated often as the worst tribe. 
 

I have them second behind stomper but with being more consistent as stomper may have lists where no units of 10+ models exist. 
 

+1 damage vs units in cover. People will rightly say that this will never kick in and that’s correct as your opponent won’t let it. In essence the rule reads opponents don’t get the benefit of cover to their save and that’s pretty strong as a passive buff. A number of heroes and also re roll save units love to sit in cover. 
 

The smaller giants destroying terrain is meh as the gatebreaker does it so much easier anyway and it’s not going to be super common. 
 

+1 to hit should be taken vs either heroes and wizards or command models as this will cover the most units. 
 

heroes is Normally a smaller % of your opponents army but a lot of lists fall apart without buff heroes. It also works well with gatebreaker very powerful ranged attacks. 2 gatebreaker with a blob of 3 giants throwing rocks will kill a support hero a turn on average. 
 

general upgrades my go to will be +2 attacks trait and 6+++ shrug. Although I could see going shrug and +5 wounds as then it takes on average 48 wounds to kill him. 
 

Running breakers you get to run the mega with the most native damage output and is the only sub faction that buffs the damage of its mega. Going from 4+ to 3+ on the flail will be a 33% damage increase. 
 

I would run a double gatebreaker 3x1 1x3 setup and I think it will be a strong build for SoB. Giving strong character sniping a tough to kill general and very high -3 rend output. 

This is the list I’m intending to run, there has been some debate as to whether the Aqshy artefact for exploding 6s could be of use but it’s something I’ll work out in testing 

[Spiky Norman]

Have anyone got any thoughts on including a Mega-Gargant in a Big Waaagh (or Ironjawz) army that includes Gordrakk, who can buff the gargant?

Would it make much of a difference? Enough to make a Mega-gargant vial as a Mercenary in that allegiance?

[Pitloze]

31 minutes ago, Spiky Norman said:

Have anyone got any thoughts on including a Mega-Gargant in a Big Waaagh (or Ironjawz) army that includes Gordrakk, who can buff the gargant?

Would it make much of a difference? Enough to make a Mega-gargant vial as a Mercenary in that allegiance?

That is almost 1000 points before battleline comes into play. Rogue Idol does more almost the same points.

[PlasticCraic]

Excellent analysis @Reuben Parker!  I'm currently doing my own write up on Breakers and I agree with almost every word you've written. 

Let us know how you get on if you run this army?  Would love to hear some batreps.

Edited October 13, 2020 by PlasticCraic

[Equinox]

Am I the only one that feels like Sons, Lumineth and to a lesser degree OBR are partial releases and we will see another wave of models early into the new edition?  In particular, I feel like Sons is only a 1/2 release and we can expect another release in the next 18-24 months.  Just seems like there isn't enough stuff to justify a full faction and what comes with one (battalions, minimal options, etc...).  Would like to have seen a second mega-G kit that was focused on magic and shooting.  The option for a mega-G wizard that doesn't burn trait/artifact/etc., would have complimented the overall faction without being broken (barring goofy new rules for the model).

All that said, my biggest struggle is whether I am going to assemble and paint my single model to fit with my destruction or death armies.  I am leaning towards death because I have a fun narrative using the Gatebreaker as the supreme judge and my nighthaunts as the jury and executioners (literally and figuratively).  Figure I will decide this weekend when I bring the model home and begin working on it.

[Ganigumo]

3 minutes ago, Equinox said:

Am I the only one that feels like Sons, Lumineth and to a lesser degree OBR are partial releases and we will see another wave of models early into the new edition?  In particular, I feel like Sons is only a 1/2 release and we can expect another release in the next 18-24 months.  Just seems like there isn't enough stuff to justify a full faction and what comes with one (battalions, minimal options, etc...).  Would like to have seen a second mega-G kit that was focused on magic and shooting.  The option for a mega-G wizard that doesn't burn trait/artifact/etc., would have complimented the overall faction without being broken (barring goofy new rules for the model).

All that said, my biggest struggle is whether I am going to assemble and paint my single model to fit with my destruction or death armies.  I am leaning towards death because I have a fun narrative using the Gatebreaker as the supreme judge and my nighthaunts as the jury and executioners (literally and figuratively).  Figure I will decide this weekend when I bring the model home and begin working on it.

Unlike other factions it doesn't feel as though sons of behemat can expand as naturally, it would basically just be new variants of gargant rather than a new concept.

That said I wouldn't be surprised to see a Brodd model or upgrade kit at some point, or possibly a new smaller gargant to go alongside the mancrushers but I don't see it in the near future the same way lumineth is being set up for.

[Reuben Parker]

38 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Excellent analysis @Reuben Parker!  I'm currently doing my own write up on Breakers and I agree with almost every word you've written. 

Let us know how you get on if you run this army?  Would love to hear some batreps.

I’m hopeful for the weekend after release for a game or two but I have the pre order coming to my house so it kind of depends when it arrives as to if I have time to build them or not. I find sometimes pre orders to home can come in midweek. 

[KingBrodd]

45 minutes ago, Equinox said:

Am I the only one that feels like Sons, Lumineth and to a lesser degree OBR are partial releases and we will see another wave of models early into the new edition?  In particular, I feel like Sons is only a 1/2 release and we can expect another release in the next 18-24 months.  Just seems like there isn't enough stuff to justify a full faction and what comes with one (battalions, minimal options, etc...).  Would like to have seen a second mega-G kit that was focused on magic and shooting.  The option for a mega-G wizard that doesn't burn trait/artifact/etc., would have complimented the overall faction without being broken (barring goofy new rules for the model).

All that said, my biggest struggle is whether I am going to assemble and paint my single model to fit with my destruction or death armies.  I am leaning towards death because I have a fun narrative using the Gatebreaker as the supreme judge and my nighthaunts as the jury and executioners (literally and figuratively).  Figure I will decide this weekend when I bring the model home and begin working on it.

I would be more suprised if the Sons didnt get a second kit with their 3.0 Tome. I would say another 3 option kit with the options of King Brodd/Leader and Shaman. That being said their 3.0 BT will most likely be the last to be updated so I wouldn't expect another kit for 2-3 years. I'd love to be wrong though.

Edited October 13, 2020 by KingBrodd

[novakai]

The only thing I can think of as an expansion is either the matriarch Gargants (even though they are called sons of Behemat) as mention in the book or they go chaos Gargants like they did with renegade knights

[HiddenElephant]

I dunno..... they got opportunities.  The Warstomper is a pretty basic giant with almost no glitziness about him aside from a theme of defeating the champions of others, while the Gatebreaker carries executioner themes and ruins of civlization, and the Krakeneater is more of a coastal or sea giant.  Those are pretty disparate themes, with nothing in common, which means that giants could be anything.  You could have a type of giant known for traveling the realms far and wide, with like bits of caravans for details, or a giant with some sort of plant theme, like a giant bean stalk, or have a storm-based giant with the ability to throw lightning, or a type of giant that hunts really large monsters, and is festooned with their hides, or a giant artisan who carves massive boulders into monuments of giant-kind.  The possibilities are vast.

Although the thing I want to see the most is an upgraded base Gargant kit.  It's showing its age, standing next to the big  boys.  Maybe a three-variant kit, with the basic Mancrusher (stompy), the Aleguzzler (very swingy), and a Boulder-lobber (chucks rocks more), with appropriate details.  Like, better clubs and more armor for the Mancrusher, lots of booze barrels for the Aleguzzler, and a sack of rocks for the Boulder-lobber.

Edited October 14, 2020 by HiddenElephant

[Tropical Ghost General]

You know an army is good when people are wishlisting what they want in the next book before the first one is even out yet 😂

[Scurvydog]

14 hours ago, Nezzhil said:

With all my respects to designers, the book seems the first take a look in the development of a product.

Well it was the same guy who wrote the Warclans book and I have still not forgiven him for that hot mess, also known as the "Warchanter book". That book suffers from many of the same issues of bland warscrolls, an inability to internally balance as few as a handful of warscrolls and a bare minimum of artifacts and sub factions that does nothing unique or interesting for the overall playstyle. 

The review from HWG is pretty much spot on I think and while Rob is being rough with the book, I think it is largely deserved. It seems like the rules are an afterthought and as they state as well, this is not just about the book being a competitive banger, most did not expect this anyway, but that it clearly lacks FUN. 

The mercenary rules are some of the closest to this, which originally hyped me a bit, like Whalebiters fight last but reroll to hit sounded thematic and gave some kind of interesting choice to make. This was the only such rules besides the kraken eaters kick objectives rule, everything else is just bland. Yes the flavor text can be pretty fun, but the actual rules are not. Just because you make an entire table of funny sounding grudges, they are still just bland +1 to hit buffs, it is all the same!

At least being so bad I can bring the Warstomper in my StD armies to play friendly club games, it will be a cool looking thematic handicap, so very handy to tone down lists for casual play or playing against new players.

[Tropical Ghost General]

I run regular local events and I'm all in on the big lads, 3 big and 9 small (not all GW as that would be a mental and monopose looking army 😂), as these guys are a perfect TO ringer/spare player army.

Games will be quick enough and you'll have way less to do in game than with other factions, that you can dip in and out of the game as you do all the TO stuff. 

And it means that you don't have to worry about bringing along a list that is too strong against even fluffy tournament players. 

I am excited to be able to use these at my events. 

[C0deb1ue]

1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

I run regular local events and I'm all in on the big lads, 3 big and 9 small (not all GW as that would be a mental and monopose looking army 😂), as these guys are a perfect TO ringer/spare player army.

Games will be quick enough and you'll have way less to do in game than with other factions, that you can dip in and out of the game as you do all the TO stuff. 

And it means that you don't have to worry about bringing along a list that is too strong against even fluffy tournament players. 

I am excited to be able to use these at my events. 

I’ve bought the book but there’s a bunch of non-GW giant models online and a bunch of videos about conversion! Will be way cheaper and some actually giant models... so it least I can hobby it a bit

[robotnik_taco]

Thinking about quick, paragraph or less rules page way to fix the army without touching warscrolls, I think I have an idea. Rather than what ever mega is your general determining your armies tribe, what if for each type you brought, gave the army all of those tribe specific abilities. Just a warstomper? Than your 9 mancrushers get just those abilities. Bring the stomped and the kraken eater? Than your 6 or so man crushers get both tribes buffs. And so on. This is balanced out by the fact that for each mega you take, you get fewer little dudes to even benefit from the traits, but gives multiple mega armies a reasonable functionality they lack otherwise.  Thoughts?