TGA Cities of Sigmar GHB 2020 Feedback Thread EDIT: OP updated with popular suggestions 24/2/20

[Double Misfire]

4 hours ago, hughwyeth said:

It's more having so many casts that fit into a battalion you'll almost always take with essentially guaranteed casting with empowered endless spells. Sorceress is good (and her spell is good) but the +2 to cast isn't really needed in Hallowheart if you're getting +1/+2+d6 to cast every turn. It's entirely reasonable that 6 hallowheart wizards could shut down almost any army (or at least remove all their 5/6 wound characters) turn 1 with all the spells in the hallowheart allegiance plus endless spells. 

Wizards are a tough act to balance between cities when they're basically twice as effective in Hallowheart lists. I know I wouldn't pay 110 points for one in a Greywater Fastness list. I think @dekay's got the right idea putting the Whitefire Council up, if you're gonna tax Hallowheart at least tax the thing only they can take, at 200 points most people would still go for it.

 

10 hours ago, Myrdin said:

*Black Arc Corsairs 80 > 70 /240

IF they had the hand Xbow as part of their dual wielding profile I think 80 would be ok. As they are now, they deserve a price drop.

I like this. Cheaper than standard minimum battleline is a good incentive to take a Fleetmaster general.

Quote

*Flagellants 80 > 60 / 220

These guys.... does anyone even use these ? They die like flies, they hit like wet noodle and their abilities trigger only after a bunch of them has died (because make no mistake a bunch of the WILL die if anything but sneezes their way). They should be MUCH cheaper. Essentially a Chaff unit or a big cheap sacrificial unit to toss at the enemy.

I'd forgotten Flagellents even existed still... 😧

Kind of in two minds about this suggestion. Part of me's dubious because they unlock as battleline with a human general and would put minimum sized Freeguild Guard units out of commission, but rest of me would love to paint a couple of small units of them and free up more points to spend on stuff I actually want.

 

5 hours ago, dekay said:

Charrwind beasthunters - battalion benefit is too situational and its structure is restrictive as it is. It deserves a drop.

Viridian pathfinders - no one ever uses is and the units it includes are on the weaker side. 

- Whitefire retinue - no one has ever in history of Hallowheart built a list without it. If it was more expensive, they still wouldn't.

Agree 100% on these. Does anyone use the Phoenix Flight battalion either?

[JackStreicher]

I love CoS but the pricing of some units is wildly off (usually too high)
My two cents:

 

Phoenix Guard up to 170/180

executioners down to 110/120 - 300 for a horde

black guard -  130 horde for 330

All Siege weapons down to 110

Drakespawn chariots down to 70, 180 for 3

Scourgerunners up to 70, 190 for 3

General on Griffon 280/300

Mage on Griffon 280 + 1 spell

sorceress on griffon 280 + 1 spell

Lord on black dragon 290

Fleetmaster 50

Corsairs - crossbows and only one melee weapon with 2 attacks.

Dwarven Infantry down by 10-20 points due to their short feet.

gyros - down by 20 each

Kharibdyss down by 10-20

hydra down by 10

Assassin - inbuild executioner‘s sword of Ulgu and stealing of cp.

Hurricanum up by 20-30

luminark down by 20

Cogsmith down to 40 (does nothing but buff overpriced warmachines

Demigryphs down by 10

Drakespawn knights down to 120

wild riders to 120

rangers to 110/120

Handgunners Up to 110 with horde discount

Greatswords down to 150 horde for 400

General change:

For 1cp at the start of the game endless spells do not cost a spell slot.

Anvilgard:

Relentless Coordination:

The Soldiers of Anvilgard coordinate their fighting styles to fall in line with the ferocity of their monstrous battle companions.

At the start of the combat phase Units wholly within 12“ of an Anvilgard monster gain one of the following effects until the start of their next herophase (or until the Monster is slain):

Hydra: 6s generate another hit (melee only)

Kharibdyss: reroll hit rolls of 1

black dragon: 6s to wound grant +1 damage.

Griffon: Immune to battleshock, +1 to run rolls.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by JackStreicher

[Zadolix]

I'd like to see Crossbowmen come down in points, maybe to 80. I have two boxes that I really want to build as crossbowmen because I just like the look of them more but for the same points as handgunners I feel like I'd be losing out on a lot.

[hughwyeth]

2 minutes ago, Zadolix said:

I'd like to see Crossbowmen come down in points, maybe to 80. I have two boxes that I really want to build as crossbowmen because I just like the look of them more but for the same points as handgunners I feel like I'd be losing out on a lot.

A mix of handgunners and crossbowmen is useful as you get that extra range.

[Zeblasky]

Oh, I almost forgot - Sisters of the watch could definetly use 2/4 extra range. They are good, but being so heavily outranged by crossbows does not feel nice.

 

[Myrdin]

Guys please keep in mind when posting suggestions that we are talking only about Points adjustments.
Any change to a unit other than that, requires a Warscroll update, and thats not something the GHB updates tend to feature much if at all.

I am sure people have lot of great suggestion however as far as I understand it seems that Double Misfire is trying to collect a general consensus data regarding the change in points so please try to stick to that if possible.

I am interested in the outcome and where people opinions tend to overlap and agree with each other, as those can then be compiled into an email for GW  

[Joseph Mackay]

Dispossessed
-Warden King down to 90pts (comparable Fyreslayer heroes are cheaper and do more damage/have better abilities)
-Runelord down to 80pts
-Longbeards down to 80/200pts, no longer battleline
-Irondrakes down to 120pts, loss conditional battleline
-Ironbreakers down to 100/270pts
-Hammerers down to 120pts
Order Serpentis
-Drakespawn Knights down to 120pts (for what it’s worth, I don’t think points can fix them. The spears need 2 attacks minimum)
-Dreadlord on Dragon down to 280pts

[Debello90]

In my opinion

Helblaster 100

Helstorm 120

Bleaksword/Dreadspear 80

Eternal Guard 120

Ironbreakers 120/300

Longbeards 100/250

Luminarch 180

Hurricanum 240

Steam Tank 150 (new warscroll please)

Assassin 60

Cogsmith 50

Sorceress 100

Battlemage on Griffon 240

Dreadlord on Black Dragon 280

Freeguild General on Griffon 280

Sorceress on Black Dragon 240

Steam Tank with Commander 200

Black Guard 130/330

Dark riders 100

Demidryph 160

Drakenspawn Chariots 100

Drakenspawn Knights 120

Executioners 110/280

Flagellants 60/210

Freeguild Greatsword 150/400

Irondrakes 130

Phoenix Guard 170

Scourgerunners Charriot 70

Shadow Warrios 120

Sisters of the Thorn 120

Sisters of the Watch 150

Wild Riders 120

Wildwood Rangers 130/330

Battallion

Hammerhal 120

Tempest eye 80

Anvilgard 60

 

 

 

[hughwyeth]

2x CIties of Sigmar armies in top 10 (5th and 9th, and "Best Order") at Hammer and Bolter. Believe they're both Hallowheart if they're playing the same list as Brotherhood. 

Edited February 10, 2020 by hughwyeth

[Double Misfire]

Ok, revisiting this thread after it's lain dormant for a while, the most commonly agreed on changes seem to be:

• Phoenix Guard going up by 10-20 points, possibly losing the horde discount, as they're on a par with Tzangor and much better than the other CoS elite infantry options.
• Either Freeguild Handgunners going up by 10 points or Freeguild Crossbowmen going down by 10, as both compete for the same spot, and the Handgunners are the more popular/commonly perceived as better unit.
• Scourgerunner Chariots are universally agreed on as a bit good, and should go up by 10-20.
• Longbeards and Ironbreakers going down by 10-20 points each, as apparently they're quite immobile and don't do a lot of damage.
• Dark Riders going down by 10 points to compete for the role they share with Pistoliers and Outriders.
• Flagellants and Black Arc Corsairs dropping 10-20 points a piece if it doesn't mean too cheap a source of conditional battleline.
• The Helblaster Volley Gun and Helstorm Rocket Battery both struggle to compete with the same points worth of non artillery shooting (with and without requisite hero buffs), and could either go down 10-30 points a piece or see the price of other shooters pushed up.
• The Assassin getting a significant points drop, possibly as many as 40, as he's cute, but entirely useless.
• The Sorceress on Black Dragon and Battlemage on Griffon dropping 20-40 points, as they don't see use over either monster's martial equivalent, or other kinds of wizard.
• The Whitefire Retinue battalion getting a significant points increase, possibly as many as 80, as it's currently a no brainer for Hallowheart players, and even at 220 points a lot of them would probably still use it.
• The Charwind Beasthunters, Phoenix Flight, and Viridian Pathfinders battalions dropping by 40 or so points, as they don't see a lot of use, and Anvilgard and the Phoenicum are commonly perceived as two of the weaker city allegiances.

 

Would everyone agree that this is a favourable consensus?  

Edited February 23, 2020 by Double Misfire

[Aelfric]

36 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

The Sorceress on Black Dragon and Battlemage on Griffon dropping 20-40 points, as they don't see use over either monster's martial equivalent, or other kinds of wizard.

I would rather they became double casters than drop in points, but that would involve a warscroll change so looks like points it is.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Aelfric

[Myrdin]

I think our artillery needs to make whatever list that is being send to GW, with a quite solid drop in points (straight -30 should be good enough) adjustment.

Spoiler

Dont really wanna derail this thread hence the Spoiler tab.

I had a talk with SCE player who also has Khorne and Sylvaneth as his secondary armies, and when I showed him our artillery pieces, after properly taking a look at them he asked me why not always take Celestral Balista if I want an artillery piece, since its superior in every conceivable way, cheaper, and for most lists using SCE, available in 2+ (1 for every 4 units). I could not answer his question, because there is really no way to answer that other than to agree. The high price and low damage output make it really not worth it. He went quite deep into the reasoning. Had also some other players voice their opinion on it and the thing that came up quite often other than the Balista was, why use artillery when I can get more mileage from other ranged units we have, like Shadow Warriors who have essentially "limitless range" with their hidden deployment for example. Again a very valid point. Our artillery pieces cant really compete even with our non artillery shooting, even if you run the optimal build with buffs, since those always get more out of your regular forces then the artillery options. I mean, this is not an evidence or anything, just some opinions being voiced.

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Myrdin

[Double Misfire]

Good call @Myrdin, I'll edit it in (though as an 'artillery guy' I'm hesitant to say my favourite units need a point drop )

[Double Misfire]

Are there any other units you guys feel should get a points hike? The current selection feels like a wishlist only three very obvious options marked for an increase. 😕

[dekay]

Phoenix guard, Frostheart Anointed, Hurricanum with mage (as incentive to take the cheaper option ;)), handgunners (10 pts, to make crossbows better?), Whitefire Retinue, Irondrakes, maybe? They kinda outclass our other shooters in many lists. Scourgerunners (opinions vary if single or horde price ;))?

[zilberfrid]

40 minutes ago, dekay said:

Phoenix guard, Frostheart Anointed, Hurricanum with mage (as incentive to take the cheaper option ;)), handgunners (10 pts, to make crossbows better?), Whitefire Retinue, Irondrakes, maybe? They kinda outclass our other shooters in many lists. Scourgerunners (opinions vary if single or horde price ;))?

I think Sisters are still the best shooters. Scourgerunners could expect a points rise.

[Gecktron]

3 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Are there any other units you guys feel should get a points hike? The current selection feels like a wishlist only three very obvious options marked for an increase. 😕

I havent tried everything yet, so my list isnt complete but I feel like there are a few units that deserve a points hike.

Phoenix Guard most obviously, the Hurricanum (a no-brainer compared to the Luminark), Shadow Warriors could also go up 10 points without much problem.

Then there are two units that are very similar, but one is just plain better. Handgunners and Crossbowmen shouldnt cost the same. Same goes for Pistolliers and Outriders. Outriders require a lot of prep work to make them good, contrasted with the Pistolliers which can be used as they are without much problem. 

 

[zilberfrid]

19 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

I havent tried everything yet, so my list isnt complete but I feel like there are a few units that deserve a points hike.

Phoenix Guard most obviously, the Hurricanum (a no-brainer compared to the Luminark), Shadow Warriors could also go up 10 points without much problem.

Then there are two units that are very similar, but one is just plain better. Handgunners and Crossbowmen shouldnt cost the same. Same goes for Pistolliers and Outriders. Outriders require a lot of prep work to make them good, contrasted with the Pistolliers which can be used as they are without much problem. 

I don't think Crossbowmen and Outriders should go to 90, neither that Handgunners and Pistoleers should go to 110. 5 increments should work better here (so 95/105).

This never happened before afaik, but there should be a reason we don't divide every number by 10 right?

Edited February 23, 2020 by zilberfrid

[hughwyeth]

21 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

 

• The Whitefire Retinue battalion getting a significant points increase, possibly as many as 80, as it's currently a no brainer for Hallowheart players, and even at 220 points a lot of them would probably still use it.

I would say being a "no-brainer" isn't a reason for a points increase. It's thematic and is the only hallowheart battalion. +1 to cast and unbind is good, but 220pts means no-one would take it. 

[Rune]

5 hours ago, hughwyeth said:

I would say being a "no-brainer" isn't a reason for a points increase. It's thematic and is the only hallowheart battalion. +1 to cast and unbind is good, but 220pts means no-one would take it. 

I've played a lot of Hallowheart, and the latest build I'm not using the batallion. Depending on your build you don't need the extra command point, and the artifacts are not very strong.

So I agree. While many builds benefits from the batallion to lower the drop size, it's definitely not a must. I think it's at a good place.

[Myrdin]

Regarding price hike > I think Scourge runners are a no brainer. 10pts, possibly 20, but no more.

The thing with this tome is that things need to be priced in a way, so that there is competition. We have some 50+ unit profiles, if all of them had to be separated by always increasing price tiers, and nothing could have the same price as another article in the book, then the units that now compete with another similar unit would be treated like the worse one, despite it not being so. Because now with the price gap they are competing with a unit that is one tier higher than it. What I mean is it would slide a lot of units down the ladder into "worse unit" territory, when currently they are just fine.

I really dont see an issue with Outriders/Pistollers and Handgunners/Xbowmen. They are essentially the same unit, doing the same thing, in two different ways. None is better than the other especially with the additive bonuses. Therefore its a foolish thinking trying to split them up with a price gap will do them justice.

If anything Xbowmen should go down by 10pts. But upping either to 110 puts them into the Shadow Warriors territory and those are vastly superior to either since they require much less buffing to be just as efficient (essentially all you need is a piece of cover...). Same with the cavalry. 10 points puts them into the Darkriders zone and at that point there is the argument of why not just run those instead since they are much faster and can still shoot and even fight if charging.

Regarding Hurricanum.... slight price hike on the hero version might be logical. But upping the points to much... I mean the issue is not with the price of Hurricanum, the issue is that Luminark is over-costed for what it does since its effects are much less contributing to the army`s overall performance. And at the end of the day, a support piece is still a support piece. Driving its price into the level where there are things slowly starting to appear, that can single handedly wipe out units, is not something a support piece should be aiming for.

[Alessio]

Drakespawnknights going down by 20-30p

[dekay]

18 hours ago, Myrdin said:

I really dont see an issue with Outriders/Pistollers and Handgunners/Xbowmen. They are essentially the same unit, doing the same thing, in two different ways. None is better than the other especially with the additive bonuses. Therefore its a foolish thinking trying to split them up with a price gap will do them justice.

If anything Xbowmen should go down by 10pts. But upping either to 110 puts them into the Shadow Warriors territory and those are vastly superior to either since they require much less buffing to be just as efficient (essentially all you need is a piece of cover...). Same with the cavalry. 10 points puts them into the Darkriders zone and at that point there is the argument of why not just run those instead since they are much faster and can still shoot and even fight if charging.

Point conceded, you are right. 110 for either of those is too much.

[Maddpainting]

I see a lot of talk about Shadow Warriors, also remember that they have 0 Musicians/Banners. Just something to think about when comparing them as we normally think those models are always there, or they don't contribute to points but they are not always there and they do add into the points factor.

Also, spawn Drakespawn Knight points with Scourgerunner, BOOM both are perfect now.

[Forrix]

Definitely, a points drop for Ironbreakers. They're not terrible but it feels like I'm just hurting myself taking them over Longbeards or pretty much any other similar unit, especially PG (though people seem to agree that those need a points increase).