Double Misfire Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) 2020's General's Handbook and first big FAQ are still a long way off, and so I figured what better way to start the year than with a feedback thread to discuss what matched play profile and points changes people would like to see, and (hopefully) point in the direction of the AoS rules team. I've created this thread purely for matched play profile and points change suggestions, and not a new battletome, so please only provide feedback concerning those, if you've got allegiance abilities or other rules you'd like to see changed or added, or new units you'd like to wishlist, please start another thread, we've just had a new book and aren't likely to get another anytime soon. I'm keeping this OP relatively trim in order to potentially collate and edit in the board's most popular suggestions for ease of viewing for anyone from GW who happens to stumble across it, and will post my own suggestions below. The comparative merit of various CoS units in shared roles is a popular subject around here, so I'm sure there will be some lively discussion and great suggestions! EDIT: I've updated the OP with the most commonly agreed on suggestions from the thread 24/2/20: Phoenix Guard going up by 10-20 points, possibly losing the horde discount, as they're on a par with Tzangor and much better than the other CoS elite infantry options. Either Freeguild Handgunners going up by 10 points or Freeguild Crossbowmen going down by 10, as both compete for the same spot, and the Handgunners are the more popular/commonly perceived as better unit. Scourgerunner Chariots are universally agreed on as a bit good, and should go up by 10-20. Longbeards and Ironbreakers going down by 10-20 points each, as apparently they're quite immobile and don't do a lot of damage. Dark Riders going down by 10 points to compete for the role they share with Pistoliers and Outriders. Flagellants and Black Arc Corsairs dropping 10-20 points a piece if it doesn't mean too cheap a source of conditional battleline. The Helblaster Volley Gun and Helstorm Rocket Battery both struggle to compete with the same points worth of non artillery shooting (with and without requisite hero buffs), and could either go down 10-30 points a piece or see the price of other shooters pushed up. The Assassin getting a significant points drop, possibly as many as 40, as he's cute, but entirely useless. The Sorceress on Black Dragon and Battlemage on Griffon dropping 20-40 points, as they don't see use over either monster's martial equivalent, or other kinds of wizard. The Whitefire Retinue battalion getting a significant points increase, possibly as many as 80, as it's currently a no brainer for Hallowheart players, and even at 220 points a lot of them would probably still use it. The Charwind Beasthunters, Phoenix Flight, and Viridian Pathfinders battalions dropping by 40 or so points, as they don't see a lot of use, and Anvilgard and the Phoenicum are commonly perceived as two of the weaker city allegiances. Edited February 24, 2020 by Double Misfire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Misfire Posted January 8, 2020 Author Share Posted January 8, 2020 Here's all the feedback I managed to come up with while the forum was down. Outside of obvious discrepancies (oh hi Phoenix Guard) I've only really commented on units I'm familiar with through playing with or against - the CoS roster is so huge I doubt many people would be able to accurately give feedback for every unit. Each entry gives the unit or battalion's name, with it's original points and/or battlefield role conditions followed by what I think they should be changed to, and a quick explanation of why I think this is the case. Sorceress - 90 points > 100 points The Sorceress currently comes in at exactly the same cost as the Battlemage, both are taken to cast spells, typically the endless ones CoS seem to have a knack at. Sorceresses are always going to be accompanied by a minimum of 10 Bleakswords to give a +2 casting bonus that almost guarantees most endless spells, allowing you to build your lists around them (Bleakswords also handily taking up a battleline slot, acting as backfield objective holders and a wizard screen, meaning they're not much of a tax), making Sorceress a no brainer over Battlemages in most situations. Yes, the Battlemage has a lot of different spells to choose from, but after you've factored in allegiance ability spells, and that you'd be crazy not to be throwing endless spells around in a CoS list, the Sorceress is the clear winner. 10 points is a lot when it means you're just shy of fitting your favourite monster into a list, and would be enough for most people to stop and consider a Battlemage. Assassin - 80 points > 40-60 points Even if you set him up in such a way as to not be within range of his target and pile in 3" without delaying any of your other units from striking, the Assassin isn't likely to do much more than scratch and then set himself up to get smacked in the face by anything he's let loose on. Even if artefacts could fix him they'd sill feel like a waste. Only good for unlocking Dark Rider and Shadow Warrior battleline, this guy is modern AoS's Witch Hunter and should be pointed accordingly. Dark Riders - 110 points > 100 points Despite being more durable and having a higher move value, Dark Riders still feel outclassed by Pistoliers and Outriders. Maybe if they cost the same points they'd feel like more of a viable option, and not pointy ear tax. Freeguild Pistoliers - CoS army, Tempest's Eye general conditional battleline > CoS army, Freeguild general conditional battleline Tempest's Eye has already got an awful lot going for it, and is way up there with Hallowheart as one of the two preeminent competitive city choices, so why not spread the wealth. The other cities stand to gain more from battleline Pistoliers and Outriders than Tempest's Eye would loose, and if you're taking Pistoliers in a Tempest's Eye list, you're probably running them as part of the battalion that means you're going to have the bloke on griffon as your general providing a Hawk-eyed bubble for them anyway. Plus, with the arrival of the arrival of the Endrinmaster in Dirgable suit, Tempest's Eye have just gained a pair of zippy new conditional battleline options in Skywardens and Endrinriggers that the rest of the cities have to ally in if they want to use at all. Freeguild Outriders - CoS army, Tempest's Eye general conditional battleline > CoS army, Freeguild general conditional battleline See Pistoliers. Phoenix Guard - 160/420 > 170-180 (+ horde discount), CoS army + Cos army, Phoenix Temple general conditional battleline > CoS army, Phoenicium general conditional battleline What's effectively an extra wound (outside of the very rare chance of being drawn against a very rare breed of orc), 2" reach, and battleshock immunity and rerolling hits and wounds (using the command point you would have spent on battleshock immunity) through the Anointed - even already costing more slightly than the other CoS elite infantry units, Phoenix Guard are still a complete no brainer, and should be pointed closer to Chaos Warriors than the mere mortals they walk among in CoS lists. The Phoenicium, along with Greywater Fastness and Anvilgard (poor Anvilgard, more on you later) are generally regarded as the inferior of the seven city options. The Phoenix Guard, who should be the Phoenicium's signature unit are currently much better off fighting for almost any other city; why not fix both Phoenix Guard being a bit too good and the Phoenicium being a bit bad by maxing Phoenix Guard a battleline option exclusively in Phoenix Temple lists? Gyrocopters - > CoS army, Greywater Fastness general conditional battleline in units of 3 While I'll never play as another city, Greywater Fastness is also a bit bad, and typically outshot by Tempest's Eye and even teleporting Hallowheart armies, so why not encourage/allow GWF players to have as much fun running as many Ironweld contraptions as they like? Helblaster Volley Gun - > CoS army, Greywater Fastness general conditional battleline This one would warrant more playtesting/caution than my other conditional battleline suggestions, but should be fine in theory, as Helblasters + a Cogsmith and Lord-Ordinator aren't going to do a lot more damage than roughly the same points spent on Handgunners + a Freeguild General. Scourgerunner Chariot - CoS army, Scourge Privateers general conditional battleline > CoS army, Anvilgard general conditional battleline I've no real experience of Anvilgard, but hear it's terrible. If this is actually the case and not garden variety Dark Elf player whining, a step towards fixing this might be giving them what's anecdotally the most OP unit in the game as an exclusive battleline choice. Also it makes no sense that a guy not in a chariot should unlock an army of chariots. 🤷♂️ Charrwind Beasthunters - 120 points > 60-80 points This battalion's special rule is unlikely to even come into play against a lot of lists, - if Anvilgard's half as milquetoast is it's supposed to be, then letting them load up on drops, command points, artefacts and Drakeblood Curses in abundance could be an easy band aid. Gryph-hounds - 140 points > 110 points Ok, not a true CoS unit, but they're cute and I'd like be able to justify using them. 😥 Ally selection - Daughters of Khaine, Fyreslayers, Idoneth Deepkin, Kharadron Overlords, Sylvaneth > Any Order (like Stormcast Eternals) This one'probably seems a little redundant, as as it stands, CoS can currently ally in any Order battletomes they can't take as part of their main army or are Seraphon. Barak-Thryng armies in the new Kharadron Overlords battletome can continue to ally in Fyreslayer, Dispossessed, and Ironweld Arsenal duardin after being given the option to take them as part of their main force, and the background in the CoS book specifically mentions Seraphon maintaining strongholds in several Free Cities, so half my argument for changing this is consistency. The other half would be to allow CoS players with older collections to still be able to ally in and field in their Skycutters, Excelsior Warpriests and whatever for the time being, albeit in a restricted manner. It does seem odd that most adjacent order armies can currently ally in our discontinued units while we're unable to. 🤨 And that's my feedback. Enjoy shredding it, I look forward to reading yours! 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prochuvi Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) Dreadlord on black dragon: 300>260 Only have damage and the breath is a joke,other factions similar units cost around 250 Sorceress on black dragon: 300>260 How is posible that a verminlord with same save,but with more damage,a special save of 5++ and cast two spells cost 280 and a sorceres on dragon cost 300 with worse stats,worse save and only one spell is a big balance problem that a 5 years old kid can see a first glimpse Hammerers: 140>120 Same stats than every other elite unit,but only have 1" range and have 50% less move than the others elite,so no reason to have same cost than units with more move and more range Ironbreakers: 130>100 A unit that was nerfed into the oblivion with cos,loosing ignore rend,ignore spells,ignore moral test. 130 points for a unit with 10 wounds and nothing special with 0 damage is a nonsense, at 100 points they gonna have the same save and points per wounds than liberators that arent very strong..... Irondrakes:160>140 Many others shooting units have same or better points per wound done but havent the short range of 16" of irondrakes or the stupid rule of dont move Longbeards: 110>80 How is posible that a unit with 10 attacks of 4\3\0 1 damage cost 110 is beyond me and stupid overcosted Runelord:90>80 Have only two prayers that both are less usefull that the spells of cos book and having battlemage casting 2 spells(at holowhearth) for same cost that only one prayer is stupid Wardenking: 110>90 Worse stats than a runefather that cost 100 Girobombers: 80>50 Too much low wounds and a joke damage output for 80 points Gyrocopter: 70>40 4 wounds with save 4 for 70 when sharks have 10 wounds with save 4 for only 100 points and have same role. Every verminlord: a increase of 20-40 points Keeper of secret: increase of 40 points Bonereapers:remove the sept\house\special alegiance (i dont know the name) of +1 save but this wont happen so a increase of 10\20 % in every unit would be more realistic Edited January 8, 2020 by prochuvi 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddpainting Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) Having been playing a huge Scourgerunner Chariot army, and also with all them Dragons+Spearguys i made 30 Drakespawn Knights and i have a Dreadlord on Dragon. I also been playing Battlemages, Celestial Hurricanum, Shadow Warriors, and Fleetmaster. i have only been playing 7 units non stop out of CoS for a bit now sometimes multiple times a day. 100% for sure feel these are fair. Scourgerunner chariots: 80 per 1 - 210 per 3 Drakespawn Knights 120 per 5 Dreadlorde on Black Dragon: 260pts Edited January 9, 2020 by Maddpainting 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeblasky Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 I was actually thinking about may be giving a sorceress on a dragon a personal free artifact choice - you can have one of 2 Witch books equipped. One gives -1 to cast, but +1 to save(maaay be with a condition that sorceress successfully casted something this turn, but better not), another gives +2 to cast, but -1 to save(and -1 save for sure should be active only if she casted successfully). Or you could take no book at all. It's just that her save is so bad for a dragon, it pains me to see it, when dreadlord dragon can go 4+/3+ and dreadlord himself is actually quite a competent fighter, especially with Lance on charge. Sorceress is a caster too, sure, I'm not forgetting about that, but she's just so squshy... And while cost buffs for Black Dragons would be welcome, I'm not sure that they are that bad. Dreadlord can even somewhat compete with durthu in damage department on a charge with Lance, while being much more mobile and having a breath attack, even if less tanky. I would also request a healing ability buff for a Living city - so it could heal 1 wound OR bring a single wound model back to the unit. Because right now this ability heavily promotes taking as much tanky single entity units as possible, while doing nothing for usual infantry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddpainting Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Well i think Durthu is to much too tho, i think a lot of Sylvaneth is to costly (or they need an ability buff), they have 3 playable units 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeblasky Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 6 hours ago, Maddpainting said: Well i think Durthu is to much too tho, i think a lot of Sylvaneth is to costly (or they need an ability buff), they have 3 playable units He just recently had -40 point cost reduction though. Oh man, powercreep is one hell of a drug. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrdin Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) Ok since this is just a price adjustment thread, lets keep it that way. I wont go into rules alteration and such. As far as I am concerned CoS is fairly well balanced in most parts, however there are some things I do agree with the comments above and will second and some I would add as well. Most of the changes are just slight price adjustments, nothing drastic. I`ll go down the Unit roster as presented in the Pitched Battle Profiles: *Hellstorm Rocket Battery 130>110/100 *Hellblaster Volley Gun 120>100/90 I really dont think these should be so expensive. They used to be more reliable back in the day, but with our current ranged option the Artillery pieces dont have much to offer, especially with the extra tax of a mandatory Cogsmith included... *Freeguild Crossbowmen 100 > 90 Personally I just dont see the use for these guys. Handgunners are better and Outriders have the mobility thus having the same range. Hellblaster can also deliver a lot of pain for slightly higher price. *Duardin units > A general drop in price by -10 to -15pts for Infantry with bulk purchase price, and -10pts for characters. *Gyrocopters 70 > 60/160 *Gyrobombers 80 > 70 /180 *Assassin 80 > 50 This guy is really not good. Squishy and the damage does not justify the price. In short > even if they pop up somewhere, they are far from being scary. This unit could use a Warscroll buff, but we are discussing price adjustments here. *Nomad Prince 120 > 100 As far as the regular CoS infantry heroes go, this one is decently good, but not having a mounted version to run alongside fairly plentifull cavalry options Wanderers and this army in general has, nor a dedicated range weapon options hurts a lot. Should be same price as FG General. *Freeguild General on Gryfon 320 > 300 *Battlemage on Gryfon 300 > 280 *Dreadlord on Black Dragon > 260 *Sorceress on Black Dragon 300 > 260 I second the opinion regarding the Black Dragon mounted heroes and add in Mage on Gryf. Spell caster mounter of ferocious beast dont really do that much in my opinion, and unlike combat characters you rarely want them in combat, nor is their spell casting getting better with the mount. So you are just taxing yourself with expensive as hell mount to get the mobility just because our army for some reason forgot to rider smaller mounted creatures apparently. *Luminark of Hysh and Luminark with White mage > -20pts Luminark vs Hurricanum.... Yes, the current -10 pts doesnt change the no brainer choice. With another -20 shaved off it might be a tad bit more attractive. *Black Arc Corsairs 80 > 70 /240 IF they had the hand Xbow as part of their dual wielding profile I think 80 would be ok. As they are now, they deserve a price drop. *Black Guard /380 Introduction of a bulk discount would be pretty ok for these guys I think. *Dark Riders 110 > 100 I agree with the reasoning stated in the comments above for this *Drakespawn Knights 150 > 140 Even after the first price drop they are still to expensive. Without a Warscroll update they should be bit more cheaper. At 140 they are close to Wildwood Riders who are essentially they less armored but punchy variant. *Executioners 130 > 120 /310 Slight drop in price and -20pts decrease in bulk purchase as well. To me these guys are just a different version of Bestigors (though better with the 3+to hit tbh). They should be priced slightly less than they currently are. *Flagellants 80 > 60 / 220 These guys.... does anyone even use these ? They die like flies, they hit like wet noodle and their abilities trigger only after a bunch of them has died (because make no mistake a bunch of the WILL die if anything but sneezes their way). They should be MUCH cheaper. Essentially a Chaff unit or a big cheap sacrificial unit to toss at the enemy. *Greatswords 160 > 150 /400 Slight price drop would be golden. I really like the Greatswords but for the price I just avoid them more than I`d like to do. They look great on the paper and they can be horrifying in battle, but they are rather slow and very expensive for 1w Infantry model. I have 40 of them and they have yet to see table in any real capacity.... *Phoenix Guard 160 > 170 Slight price hike. They remind me a lot of Tzaangors. Difference being those are 2W each with worse saves and variable weapon load outs. Phoenix guard are tough as nails and hit decently hard when unbuffed. Extra 10 points wont hurt them much in the long run. *Scourgerunner Chariots 60 > 70 Lets be honest, these things are amazing for 60 pts. They would still be good for 70. Increase the price of individual models while keep the bulk discount to limit the unit in movement and ground control when you want to capitalize on the damage output. Still a good choice even with 10 more points slapped onto the unit. *Sister of Thorns 130 > 120/110 And honestly I still think they should be cheaper. They are far from being as shooty as Outriders, nor can they cast as well as Doomfire Warlocks. Whats worse their utility is extremely limited with their signature spell affecting only Wanderers. I like the Sister, but as they are now. Personally I`d say 110 is where they should be, as that would make them decent chaff / chaff hunters even with their limitations. *Wildwood Rangers /330-310 I like Wildwood Rangers a lot. They bring terror to the terrors of the night (big gribbly monsters). But I think they could use a bulk discount tbh in order for them to stay competitive with our own roster. A solid bulk discount would be nice to see, even though I run them as MSU. *Battalions -20 pts A full scale decrease on the battalion pricing would be welcome. Edited February 11, 2020 by Myrdin Playtesting a bit more of our artillery I find them quite lacking when compared to other ranged options. Thus the edit 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Misfire Posted January 9, 2020 Author Share Posted January 9, 2020 13 hours ago, prochuvi said: Ironbreakers: 130>100 A unit that was nerfed into the oblivion with cos,loosing ignore rend,ignore spells,ignore moral test. 130 points for a unit with 10 wounds and nothing special with 0 damage is a nonsense, at 100 points they gonna have the same save and points per wounds than liberators that arent very strong..... You do realise they lost ignore -1 rend and gained a point of save, right? 🤨 Quote Longbeards: 110>80 How is posible that a unit with 10 attacks of 4\3\0 1 damage cost 110 is beyond me and stupid overcosted Their a grumbles make at least a small unit a must take option in any Dispossessed focused list, and a unit armed with hand weapons (the loadout you've described) gets a 3+ save in combat, something almost unheard of in non hero or behemoth units. Quote Runelord:90>80 Have only two prayers that both are less usefull that the spells of cos book and having battlemage casting 2 spells(at holowhearth) for same cost that only one prayer is stupid His prayers are both crazy useful with the right application (-1 rend on Irondrakes early game then Hammerers late, I've lost track of how many times I've held onto an objective thanks to the 6+ ward one), cast more reliably than mage spells and can't be dispelled; being able to reliably dispel an endless spell without giving anything up is also huge, offensively and defensively (you can use him to dispel your own endless spell the following turn, allowing it to be cast again for twice the use). Hallowheart wizards can cast two spells a turn, but Greywater Fastness Runelords can cast two prayers. Evens out. 😉🤷♂️ Quote Wardenking: 110>90 Worse stats than a runefather that cost 100 I think it's probably the Warden King's amazing command ability and battleshock immunity set his price, and not his ability as 5 wound frontline combat piece. 2 hours ago, Myrdin said: *Duardin units > A general drop in price by -10 to -15pts for Infantry with bulk purchase price, and -10pts for characters. *Gyrocopters 70 > 60/160 *Gyrobombers 80 > 70 /180 Interesting that bringing the cost down on Gyrocopters and Dispossessed stuff seems to be popluar. I've not had any trouble using either under the new book, but haven't thought to compare their costs to equivalent units in other armies. Do feel like there's not much on paper reason to use them over cheap Freeguild Guard and Handgunners or elite, fast Phoenix Guard though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prochuvi Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Double Misfire said: You do realise they lost ignore -1 rend and gained a point of save, right? 🤨 Their a grumbles make at least a small unit a must take option in any Dispossessed focused list, and a unit armed with hand weapons (the loadout you've described) gets a 3+ save in combat, something almost unheard of in non hero or behemoth units. The save gained is for the lost reroll saves of the shield,the ignore spells and rend was a free steal nerf. Sorry but you are very wrong about longbeards,if you are bringing a unit with 0 damage potential for the grudges then you are 100% better bringing a mague that can dispell endless spells also and use better buffs with less cost 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Misfire Posted January 9, 2020 Author Share Posted January 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, prochuvi said: The save gained is for the lost reroll saves of the shield,the ignore spells and rend was a free steal nerf. Sorry but you are very wrong about longbeards,if you are bringing a unit with 0 damage potential for the grudges then you are 100% better bringing a mague that can dispell endless spells also and use better buffs with less cost Mages can't screen and don't take up a battleline slot; I also can't think of any spells that allow every unit nearby to reroll 1s to wound, and even if they did it wouldn't be guaranteed... If you're that wound up about damage output, just give them Great Weapons? Most people seem to, and I recently had a unit of 20 take down a Keeper of Secrets in a single round. 🤷♂️ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekay Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 24 minutes ago, prochuvi said: The save gained is for the lost reroll saves of the shield,the ignore spells and rend was a free steal nerf. While I agree that they should be a bit cheaper, remember that they also gained an easy access to spell support and things like hurricanum/luminark auras. While not a direct buff, it makes it impossible to compare them directly to old disposessed faction version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughwyeth Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Always find these kind of threads interesting because they show how variable the meta must be in different AoS communities. I can't see Cities getting many points reductions really. I imagine battlemages will go up to 100/110 because battlemage spam in Hallowheart is so potent. Dark elf stuff will likely go down a bit because they're so underused everywhere. But I find the scale of points decreases suggested here a bit laughable. Cities is top 3 right now, no way are they going to make it more powerful. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomParry84 Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Demi-Gryphs should be 160/170 instead of 180, feel a bit expensive atm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Misfire Posted January 9, 2020 Author Share Posted January 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, hughwyeth said: Always find these kind of threads interesting because they show how variable the meta must be in different AoS communities. I can't see Cities getting many points reductions really. I imagine battlemages will go up to 100/110 because battlemage spam in Hallowheart is so potent. Dark elf stuff will likely go down a bit because they're so underused everywhere. But I find the scale of points decreases suggested here a bit laughable. Cities is top 3 right now, no way are they going to make it more powerful. Is that battlemages taking advantage of the Hurricanum's aura + Whitefire Council for +2 to cast? Surely Whitefire Sorceresses with +3 to cast is more potent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughwyeth Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Double Misfire said: Is that battlemages taking advantage of the Hurricanum's aura + Whitefire Council for +2 to cast? Surely Whitefire Sorceresses with +3 to cast is more potent? It's more having so many casts that fit into a battalion you'll almost always take with essentially guaranteed casting with empowered endless spells. Sorceress is good (and her spell is good) but the +2 to cast isn't really needed in Hallowheart if you're getting +1/+2+d6 to cast every turn. It's entirely reasonable that 6 hallowheart wizards could shut down almost any army (or at least remove all their 5/6 wound characters) turn 1 with all the spells in the hallowheart allegiance plus endless spells. Edited January 9, 2020 by hughwyeth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimbok Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Most CoS inits are overcosted, that’s the main problem, in an otherwise great book. My win rate is 25% buts it’s not that far away in adjustments to go towards 50%. Main problrem is too few wounds. I use Longbeards, 11 points per wound is way too expensive. There is no damage output in them. Phoenix Guard is the only point efficient unit in my army, but they are not overly powerful, just really good. I would still take them at 170, maybe 180, but it’s thereabouts. I also use Demigryphs and Wild Riders, they seem slighty overcosted, but otherwise fine units. I actually find the Freeguild General og Griffon the most overcosted, in no way is 320 well costed. Many fine units, great book, just about 10 % overcosted most of the warscrolls. Grimbok 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekay Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Just to give a bit of my own feedback, too. It's pretty conservative, I wouldn't want anything to become too cheap, but there are some things that could really use a price drop while some might be too cheap. Mage on Griffon - no one ever uses him, really. Sorceress on dragon -same problem as griffon - her durability is lacking compared to the combat version. At least she gets some use due to unique command ability, but she really deserves a drop. Assassin - i want to like him, but he's too expensive. Dark Riders - price for the horde is fine, but they are too expensive in small units. They could cost the same as outriders. Longbeards - Grumbling is a fun rule but they are lacking compared to other duardin. Black guard- they are good, but could use a horde discount of some sort. Executioners - you've seen the thread ; ). Not useless, but we need some extra incentive to field them. Wildwood rangers - worst of our elite infantry. Not bad by design, but too expensive. Steam tank - common consensus is that it's not particularily strong. Drakespawn - still too expensive. Charrwind beasthunters - battalion benefit is too situational and its structure is restrictive as it is. It deserves a drop. Viridian pathfinders - no one ever uses is and the units it includes are on the weaker side. Things that could go up: - Scourgerunner. Price for 3 is fine, but horde of single scourgerunners is probably too strong. - Phoenix Guard. It's our best unit and outclasses most other infantry options. Or just take away their horde discount. - Whitefire retinue - no one has ever in history of Hallowheart built a list without it. If it was more expensive, they still wouldn't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prochuvi Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 58 minutes ago, hughwyeth said: Always find these kind of threads interesting because they show how variable the meta must be in different AoS communities. I can't see Cities getting many points reductions really. I imagine battlemages will go up to 100/110 because battlemage spam in Hallowheart is so potent. Dark elf stuff will likely go down a bit because they're so underused everywhere. But I find the scale of points decreases suggested here a bit laughable. Cities is top 3 right now, no way are they going to make it more powerful. Good joke dude,saying a army with 46% win rate is top3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilberfrid Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) Much of CoS is good. I would like to see a few adjustments in units that I like to use (but don't know everything about units I don't use): Nerfs: - Up the cost of Phoenix Guards by 20 pts. These are quite a bit undercosted for the damage and staying power they bring. - Up the cost of the Hurricanum by 20 pts. It's in every list. If it's no longer a choice, that's bad. - Up the cost of Scourgerunner Chariot by 10 points. It overperforms its point cost. Buffs: - Up the range of Guards with Halberds to 2". Halberds are longer than spears, this may take the wound back to the rest. - Give Guards with Spears -2 rend vs units that charged (this will make them better than halberds vs units that charged, and not as good vs others). - Lower the cost of Executioners by 10 pts, these are overcosted for what they bring. - Lower the cost of Drakespawn by another 10 points. - Lower the cost of Sorcerer and Battlemages on mounts by 20 points Just adjustments: - Change the name of the Freeguild General to Freeguild Captain (to avoid confusion, and this model already was named captain). - Change the name of the Freeguild General on Griffin to Freeguild to Colonel (again to avoid confusion). Add one single unit: - Hero on horse (with bits that can make it Aelf/Human or Duardin) with 6 wounds, 4+ save, 10 speed and a command ability to Cities units regardless of subfaction (preferably Rend). Edited January 9, 2020 by zilberfrid 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughwyeth Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 49 minutes ago, prochuvi said: Good joke dude,saying a army with 46% win rate is top3 Looking at win rate 3 months after a battletome launches that only uses old fantasy models isn't a reliable way to determine power level. Edit: 10 of the lists at brotherhood next weekend are cities list- all are Living City or Hallowheart, many taken by top 10 UK players. Edited January 9, 2020 by hughwyeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prochuvi Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 So we have a web with stats from tournaments and have two tables, one is win rate where cos have 46% win rate at 17th position(and math show that relatives data is the best to determine things as absolutes aren reliably),and other table in 5+ wins that as economist i allways ignore because have absolute 0 relation with power levels(per example a army that is a 10\10 have one dude going to tournaments and only have 1 chance to get 5wins but other army with 4\10 rating have 200 dudes going to tournaments......it is easy to see that even if one army is so much better than other gonna have less wins for raw numbers) but even in this table cos is 11. Where are you getting data to say that cos is top3? When we have other army release at the same time(orks) that have 60 win rate per example. Cos is a mid tier with luck and under armys with old tomes as idoneths,top3 together slanesh,bonereapers and skaven?that isnt even a joke,is as if i say that old dispossesed were a top1 army because i can even if data show otherwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeblasky Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 hour ago, hughwyeth said: . I imagine battlemages will go up to 100/110 because battlemage spam in Hallowheart is so potent. Good thing I already take Sisters of Thorn instead, haha. Much better in units of 5 than battlemages - can shoot, stab and quite more tanky. Just don't understand while people think them bad, they are amazing. Sure Warlocks have +1 to cast/dispell and a bit better in combat, but they are +30 points and in a different faction. But I would have certainly loved if Sisters would have been more skirmish oriented instead of being a hybrid unit. Something like "at the end of a shooting phase if there are no enemy units within 3, this unit can move 4/6 , if it ends his movement more that 9 away from enemy units". So they could be casters and kiting skirmishers if needed. 49 minutes ago, dekay said: Sorceress on dragon -same problem as griffon - her durability is lacking compared to the combat version. At least she gets some use due to unique command ability, but she really deserves a drop. Viridian pathfinders - no one ever uses is and the units it includes are on the weaker side. - Whitefire retinue - no one has ever in history of Hallowheart built a list without it. If it was more expensive, they still wouldn't. Sorceress on a dragon - agree, that 5+ save really hurts her. But she's a great target for Arcane Channeling though. Virdian parthfinders - roster needs to be more flexible and charge bonuses should be bigger and more combat oriented, like at least +1 to hit on a charge. Whitefire retinue - my 4x5 Sisters of thorn disagree, hehe, but my build is very special anyway, heh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughwyeth Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, prochuvi said: Where are you getting data to say that cos is top3? When we have other army release at the same time(orks) that have 60 win rate per example. Cos is a mid tier with luck and under armys with old tomes as idoneths,top3 together slanesh,bonereapers and skaven?that isnt even a joke,is as if i say that old dispossesed were a top1 army because i can even if data show otherwise There's not much point in going on about this- we'll find out whether they're good or not anyway. But orks are popular and both Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz were AoS armies before the new battletome. People had fully painted armies that they could play right away with the new books. Cities is not that at all. Some people had mixed order, but most of those models didn't make it into Cities. Cities requires people to buy old Fantasy models (already that will put off a majority of people) and build a whole army- that takes time. People are now bringing the power lists to tournaments and I think you'll see high win rate with those. There are only a couple of lists that are power lists in the battletome, but those are extremely powerful. Quoting HW stats is the best way to compare armies, but only if you're comparing like for like- different armies gain popularity and ranking differently, and 3 months after Cities release isn't enough time. Ossiarch is 2 months old, but a lot of people got them and they are the second most powerful army (perhaps most powerful post slaanesh faq, havent seen enough games to give an opinion really). From the points change people are asking for it seems like people aren't playing the power lists- either because they don't have those models and are playing with their old dispossessed/dark elf stuff or because they want more interesting mixed lists. It's like someone complaining that Tzeentch isn't powerful because Kairic Acolytes aren't that great. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddpainting Posted January 9, 2020 Share Posted January 9, 2020 Some of you keep saying Scourgerunner Chariots "horde price is good but singles needs to go up" NO ONE TAKES SINGLES, when you take 3 not only do you get the discount but you also get the very important +1 to hit, this is important b.c the Hurricanum buff is models within 10". After playing Chariots and 2 Hurricanum's you will never take them in singles and you need that extra 1 to have +1 to hit, so you can do this H=Hurricanum C=Chariot L=Leader Chariot Hurricanum aura length ....|-------------|.... L..C..C..H..C..C..L Now you can have all models gain the +1 to hit And having them in unis of 3 also means you can get the discounts to take 6 in allies which is actually very strong, 6 or 7 can fit in an IDK army, (and i had IDK and played it, its very strong for them, it gives them time to trigger their buffs, and handles units like Screens so they can always get their 3" MW bomb in range). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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