Warhammer - The Old World

[Ogregut]

3 minutes ago, Hollow said:

I've been reading similar comment across the interwebs and I find it interesting (and a little frustrating) that so many folk just do not seem to understand the absolute MASSIVE difference in resources required to produce resin kits compared to a plastic kits. Resin kits can be created for hundreds of pounds (a few thousand when you take labour costs into consideration) They can be created for miniature runs that may only sell a few hundred each. The ROI on a resin miniature is if that model sells a few hundred kits. A plastic kits costs 10's of thousands of pounds to create. The ROI for plastic kits is far far longer and the kit needs to sell thousands before it reaches the stage of profitability. 

Resin miniatures allow for esoteric and low run miniatures to be created that would never be created in plastic. Unless/until ToW has proven to be (and continues to be) a huge financial success, then we are not going to see a huge amount of new plastic kits for ranges that already have models which can be bolstered by a handful of resin models. 

I also find it interesting that people just don't seem to be able to (or willing to) read between the lines. The Battlion boxes are basically ToW answer to 40k's Combat Patrols or AoS (Spearheads) with a chunk re-released plastic troppers that have long since moved into profitability. 

These boxes are the cash injection (I know some people don't like the idea that GW is trying to make money) for the SDS to show significant profitability in it's first 4 quarters. It's why I am still convinced that we will see the majority of the 9 core factions released over the next 9 months. (If not all of them) The only real big question mark for me is how AoS is going to deal with BoC. It will either be a hard chop with the release of AoS 4 in the summer (Paving the way for ToW BoC to be released in Autumn) or a soft chop with the faction being one of the first on the block for a complete redesign soon after AoS releases. (Paving the way for ToW BoC to be released in Winter) 

High Elf Realms, Wood Elf Realms, Dwarfen Moutnian Holds, Warriors of Chaos & Empire of Man are all going to be getting releases very similar to this one. They have entire existing ranges which will be re-released and will get a smattering of new Resin models. There might be a plastic kit here or there if there isn't a half-decent existing kit for unit entries, but looking through all of the faction lists and what they can take, they all have existing kits that can be used. 

The positive and hopeful aspect of this is, that there are CAD sculpts for new factions and units waiting in the wings ready for their injection mould plates to be made. Standing back and looking at the big picture. IF you only have the possibility to breate say 20 new plastic kits for the system over a 3 year period. Would you rather they were split across the 9 core factions as exisitng to upgrade existing models (of which there is clearly a market for) or use those resources to release entirely new factions like Kislev, Grand Cathay, Araby or Moot? 

PS: sorry for coming across a bit grumpy, I've not had my coffee yet. 😅

 

This! 

What you say makes sense to me. 

I would love to see new common goblins (not a fan of the current ones) and a new plastic boar chariot (to bring the boars in line with the new ones) but can understand why they haven't been done. 

Now, if they make the Kev Adams night goblins available in made to order the orc and goblin release would be perfect! 

[HorticulusTGA]

34 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

The Trebuchet is resin because the mould broke years ago. Otherwise it would have been metal.

Maybe for the trebuchet. But then it was already made in Finecast back in the day (granted, the new FW resin kit is also a reworked kit).

But for the Rock Lobba : it was in Finecast, and now they are releasing it in metal. 

Vers strange...

20 minutes ago, Ogregut said:

Why waste resources producing them when most people will use the new ones? 

I agree but the same could be said for half the AOS ranges perfectly usable in ToW which they are not re-using, instead pouring ressources in proceeding back more or less cool equivalent. I.e. for O&G there will be available from GW : 

• Plastic - AOS Stone Trolls (and other AOS Trolls)
• Plastic - River Trolls (from WFB)
• Metal - Online Only - Common Trolls (lookalikes the one in Skull Pass)
• Metal - Made To Order - Old Stone Trolls / Old river Trolls. 

Also, why use ressource to remake the Orc and Goblin Giant in resin, while the WFB Plastic Giant still exist, while making the Old Old Giant Metal MTO ?

 

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Remember the Hasting rumour about new plastic Orc boyz and a plastic boss on wyvern ? You can throw that rumour out the window, both old kits are returning, it's not gonna happen.

[Doko]

11 minutes ago, Hollow said:

Would you rather they were split across the 9 core factions to upgrade existing models (of which there is clearly a market for) or use those resources to release entirely new factions like Kislev, Grand Cathay, Araby or Moot? 

i preffer first option. 

this actual release have killed all the hype in my club of new players waiting for their favorite army to be released while old players are happy because they can finish their army without pay the price of second hand.

so with actual release and only in my club they wont get any new player and only 1 or 2 units sold to old players to finish their old collection, i think is a faill.

if they would have done the same than kemri and bretonian then we had around 7 new guys hyped for their army release and was going to do 7 new full armys and also those same old players were getting the new kits and finishing the old collection also.

 

so.......i think they have done a huge error,release new units for every army and sell well each army and then with time release these new armys was a better option than actual option of bad sells of core armys but hope for good sales of the new armys with the game allready dead

[Pizzaprez]

Was great to see the Warhammer Forge stuff is coming back

Makes me wonder if GW meshing together their main site and the FW site into one catalogue was to help fight against the "forgeworld isn't official!" bias ive seen off and on online over the years 

[JerekKruger]

14 hours ago, Bosskelot said:

Not very encouraging when my GW preorder is still listed as Processing on their site.

Wayland Games by any chance?

[Hollow]

9 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Vers strange...

It's not strange when you consider that Finecast, Forgeworld Resign & Metal acompletely different materials requiring completely different moulds.

11 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Plastic - AOS Stone Trolls (and other AOS Trolls)

They have AoS specific details on them and there is a clear market for the older stone trolls. Take a few minutes and look back over the last few years at the crazy second hand market for these minis. Also. Again. There will be no official cross compatability between ToW and AoS. Zero, None, Nadda, Ziltch. Two different systems, Two different games. Two different studios, Two different balance sheets. 

14 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Also, why use ressource to remake the Orc and Goblin Giant in resin, while the WFB Plastic Giant still exist, while making the Old Old Giant Metal MTO ?

Because there is a market for them? They will sell and make money? The plastic Giant is an AoS product. The Metal MTO Giant will sell and make money. It's that simple. 

 

13 minutes ago, Doko said:

while old players are happy

 literally ToWs primary market. ToW is not about recruiting new players. AoS is about recruiting new players into the GW ecosystem. They literally stated that in black and white. It's why there is no "starter set". You might not like that, you might think that is wrong, but it is as clear as crystal that is how GW sees this. 

16 minutes ago, Doko said:

.i think they have done a huge error,release new units for every army and sell well each army and then with time release these new armys was a better option than actual option of bad sells of core armys but hope for good sales of the new armys with the game allready dead

As a gamer I would have loved to have seen completely new plastic ranges for every ToW faction. As a bean counter I think they are playing an absolute blinder. It's actually pretty amazing what GW has been able to do from a purely buisness stand point. They took an IP that was a bloated loss leader. Blew it up and replaced it with an entirely new system. They have built that system to be many more times as successful than what went before. Kept the old IP alive through a wildly successful computer game series. Then, they have relaunched the old system with it's two previsouly most unsuccessful factions, using old models that weren't selling 10 years ago and completely sold out. (I bet you Tomb Kings and Bretonnians have made more money this month than the last several years of Fantasy combined) with minimal investment. All this in under a decade! It's a money making masterclass. 

[Kitsumy]

.... they just kill oldworld with this notice. ( to clarify this since people minditstood). it killed the game as a growing one with masive hipe and new players. it will remain as gw wanted it, a game for old players without not much new, only to destroy the second hand market.

 

sure old players that allready played other edittions of fantasy wont care since they allready had them and now can get them far cheaper.

or those weird guys who only like the uglier and older the miniature the better, and since they are shado ****** they also prefer metal and resin above plastic.

but most of those guys will go back to those old edittions. for same reason they played it instead the oficial last one.

 

and game will remain dead ( only will be a niche game not a wroging one) since no new player will buy 20+ years miniatures, with lot of metal and resin in there.

brettonian and kemry were a masive hype because they had new unit and some heros with even 1 bigg one. this one..... 2 small resin heros?? and more metal kits than plastic one. not so appealing

Edited January 20 by Kitsumy

[Hollow]

1 minute ago, Kitsumy said:

and game will remain dead, since no new player will buy 20+ years miniatures, with lot of metal and resin in there.

You have just witnessed both Tomb King and Bretonnian ranges (with a lot of metal and resin in there) sell out. It's literally a demonstrable fact that there is a significant market for them. 

[Jator]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

i wont be a hater.......i only gonna say this reveal is very dissapointint and not what i was expecting getting for each faction.

a new box with 0 new unit or heroe.

the box dont have nothing extra as rulesbook etc

the box is only around 5 old units and for sure with less disscount that khemri and bret(i hope this box cost around 99/100 € with the units that bring)

 

I prefer this approach to boxes. People can buy more than one without paying for repeated heroes they may not need or extra rulebooks, which no one wants.

That being said, this one looks pretty dull.

[Souleater]

How do the ‘get them before they’re gone’ Underworld Warbands fit into the idea that plastics aren’t viable for small runs?  Do we really see them being reused in combat boxes or something like Hachette’s Partworks? 
 

Not trying to be snarky. I’m genuinely puzzled by this. 

[Ejecutor]

1 minute ago, Souleater said:

How do the ‘get them before they’re gone’ Underworld Warbands fit into the idea that plastics aren’t viable for small runs?  Do we really see them being reused in combat boxes or something like Hachette’s Partworks? 
 

Not trying to be snarky. I’m genuinely puzzled by this. 

Stormbringer is full of Underworlds bands, as well as Mortal Realms had at least 5-6 of them

[Marcvs]

3 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

.... they just kill oldworld with this notice.

 

sure old players that allready played other edittions of fantasy wont care since they allready had them and now can get them far cheaper.

or those weird guys who only like the uglier and older the miniature the better, and since they are shado ****** they also prefer metal and resin above plastic.

but most of those guys will go back to those old edittions. for same reason they played it instead the oficial last one.

 

and game will remain dead, since no new player will buy 20+ years miniatures, with lot of metal and resin in there.

brettonian and kemry were a masive hype because they had new unit and some heros with even 1 bigg one. this one..... 2 small resin heros?? and more metal kits than plastic one. not thanks

I think a lot of critiques are very fair about the whole OW strategy. That having been said, I think when formulating those one should try to have bit of nuance in light of sold out products and queues in front of WHW. There seems to be a market for it and we should not discount the pull effect of so many community "leaders" (from local to internet level) having fond memories for WHFB (because it was their first miniature game).

I was not interested in it at first, but with 6 players in my relatively small club being very excited and ready to play, of course I'll get into it. Again, we should not underestimate the effect of the "old guard" in smaller realities -and these are all people who also play AoS and other systems, not some sort of dusty relics, just to be clear

[Clan's Cynic]

It's funny that two weeks after pretty much everything plastic and resin on the webstore selling out, we're already back to "TOW will flop" talk.

Surprised we've not circled all the way back around to "TOW won't even be on squares!" while we're at it.

Edited January 20 by Clan's Cynic

[Hollow]

16 minutes ago, Souleater said:

How do the ‘get them before they’re gone’ Underworld Warbands fit into the idea that plastics aren’t viable for small runs?  Do we really see them being reused in combat boxes or something like Hachette’s Partworks? 
 

Not trying to be snarky. I’m genuinely puzzled by this. 

 

Take everything I'm about to say with a huge pinch of salt, because at the end of the day, I do not know the facts. This is my take. 

Underworlds as a system and product is designed primarily for 2 reasons. 

1 - To act as a small "competitive" tournament style game, allowing for GamesWorkshop to have a dog within that market. It is about disrupting an existing market and exposing individuals to the GW eco-system. The entire system might not even turn a profit, but can act as a loss-leader to generate revenue from individuals who are exposed to the GW eco-system. You like this warband? We have an entire range of similar models that you can buy. Like those models? There is an entire eco-system of other games you can enjoy. It's about market penetration and revenue generated by exposure and customer aquisition. 

2- To act as a "feeder-system" to the GW eco system (AoS primarily) and market saturation. Similar to the first point, it's about exposure, it is also a direct answer to the many different game systems that have popped up over the last decade or so. GW wants to be in every single wargame sphere. It also allows for a small testing system for sculpts and ideas that can (and do) lead to greater development within AoS. If a warband sells out, is reprinted and sells out again, you can bet your bottom dollar that creative avenue will be explored in greater depth within AoS. 

Games Workshop is all about complete and utter market domination. Underworlds is just a part of that. 

Edited January 20 by Hollow

[Ogregut]

51 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Maybe for the trebuchet. But then it was already made in Finecast back in the day (granted, the new FW resin kit is also a reworked kit).

But for the Rock Lobba : it was in Finecast, and now they are releasing it in metal. 

Vers strange...

I agree but the same could be said for half the AOS ranges perfectly usable in ToW which they are not re-using, instead pouring ressources in proceeding back more or less cool equivalent. I.e. for O&G there will be available from GW : 

• Plastic - AOS Stone Trolls (and other AOS Trolls)
• Plastic - River Trolls (from WFB)
• Metal - Online Only - Common Trolls (lookalikes the one in Skull Pass)
• Metal - Made To Order - Old Stone Trolls / Old river Trolls. 

Also, why use ressource to remake the Orc and Goblin Giant in resin, while the WFB Plastic Giant still exist, while making the Old Old Giant Metal MTO ?

 

I may be wrong but the made to order products will be only available for a limited time meaning for the long run the only river and stone trolls available will be the plastic ones. 

As for the old mauader giant, I think that will be hugely popular not just with o&g players but painters and collectors in general, he goes for silly prices 2nd hand. 

[Ogregut]

3 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

It's funny that two weeks after pretty much everything plastic and resin on the webstore selling out, we're already back to "TOW will flop" talk.

Surprised we've not circled all the way back around to "TOW won't even be on squares!" while we're at it.

I hear they'll be changing to triangle bases next year!! 🤣🤣

[LordSolarMach]

Got an email from my local (in Canada) that due to weather issues at the Memphis warehouse there's delays across North America, and they're not expecting TOW stuff in until later this week.

Edited January 20 by LordSolarMach

[return_of_grom]

4 hours ago, Ogregut said:

And the war wryven. We are in golden times my friends!! 

this guy looks amazing!  A lot of weight balancing on one foot though and a small base 😅. Hope they at least increased its base size (edit: the base size for wyverns is now 50x100 mm).

Any predictions when these will come out?

Edited January 20 by return_of_grom

[Lavieth]

I'd love to know if the MESBG community is overloaded with the same level of doom and gloom, like many of the people here feel. Many of their old kits are just fine and they seem to be happy to have a game to play, regardless of the miniatures that are made available for them, and they have to deal with range rotations. 

I don't understand why so many people undervalue the appeal that some of those older kits have. I remember when that orc warboss on Wyvern model came out in 6th. It's just as good looking now as it was then. Not to mention that those older kits look excellent ranked up. Sure some of the AoS kits are newer, but not all of them would look good on squares and in ranks like those orc Boyz do. I know I'm getting more excited for my high elves return from today's article than I was before. Knowing they are re-releasing that 1993 Wyvern as made to order brought me so much joy. I want one so bad and will order one. Now I have some optimism that they could release the older Imrik (pre 6th ed) and a few of the other older kits. I won't have to watch people gouging on ebay for them. 

I also fully agree with @Hallow with regards to how to utilize resources. Use the demand for current kits to fund the growth of the game to introduce new factions like Kislev, Cathty and (I sure hope warmaster will be referenced) Araby. 

If you are going to be so let down to play a game because of old kits being used, check your motivations for why you are playing it at all. All these "this just killed the old world" commentary really is dragging down the thread for those of us who are excited. 

[Kronos]

OMFG THEY’RE BRINGING BACK THE WARHAMMER FORGE MINIS!!!

Even if its only a few!!! Best Warhammer news I’ve seen in Years!!
 

🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳

[Swamp Trogg]

Hum, looks like I've found my third Swamp Calla Shaman 🤔

He will make an excellent link between my Kruleboyz and their Troggoth allies. Exquisite 😁👌

 

On a other subject, all these returing metal models makes me a little sad about GW's decision not to bring back Chaos Dwarves : it would have been a very good way to get those old blunderbusses and metal characters 😅😢

[Jator]

2 hours ago, Hollow said:

The positive and hopeful aspect of this is, that there are CAD sculpts for new factions and units waiting in the wings ready for their injection mould plates to be made. Standing back and looking at the big picture. IF you only have the possibility to create 20 new plastic kits for the system over a 3 year period. Would you rather they were split across the 9 core factions to upgrade existing models (of which there is clearly a market for) or use those resources to release entirely new factions like Kislev, Grand Cathay, Araby or Moot? 

Although this makes sense (new units/armies usually sell better that revamped ones), and would be good for the game, I'm kinda bummed out by the fact that all the obvious possible new armies are just regular pseudohistorical humans.  Except the Moot, of course, which I can only see GW doing if they really want to spit on Mantic and their halfling army...and I doubt they care so much.

To be clear, I don't mind Kislev, which makes pperfect sense within the Old World itself and it's narrative, but more than that I find so boring...

Then again, the only fantasy race that comes to my mind when I think about new factions are fimirs, and we know GW won't to touch them with abargue-pole (although they'd have plenty of room to retconn whatever they want and came with new stuff).

That being said, I'll welcome any new addition to the Old World.

[Ogregut]

33 minutes ago, Lavieth said:

I'd love to know if the MESBG community is overloaded with the same level of doom and gloom, like many of the people here feel. Many of their old kits are just fine and they seem to be happy to have a game to play, regardless of the miniatures that are made available for them, and they have to deal with range rotations. 

I don't understand why so many people undervalue the appeal that some of those older kits have. I remember when that orc warboss on Wyvern model came out in 6th. It's just as good looking now as it was then. Not to mention that those older kits look excellent ranked up. Sure some of the AoS kits are newer, but not all of them would look good on squares and in ranks like those orc Boyz do. I know I'm getting more excited for my high elves return from today's article than I was before. Knowing they are re-releasing that 1993 Wyvern as made to order brought me so much joy. I want one so bad and will order one. Now I have some optimism that they could release the older Imrik (pre 6th ed) and a few of the other older kits. I won't have to watch people gouging on ebay for them. 

I also fully agree with @Hallow with regards to how to utilize resources. Use the demand for current kits to fund the growth of the game to introduce new factions like Kislev, Cathty and (I sure hope warmaster will be referenced) Araby. 

If you are going to be so let down to play a game because of old kits being used, check your motivations for why you are playing it at all. All these "this just killed the old world" commentary really is dragging down the thread for those of us who are excited. 

I think the majority of people are happy and enthusiastic about TOW and aside from the distrubution issues with players not getting there stuff in time and selling out I'll say the game is off and running with a bright future. 

There will always be people who say every game and edition is dead on arrival like those who say GW is going out of business after every financial report. 

And in other news, the postman has finally done his rounds and a heavy box was delivered! 

[Hollow]

2 minutes ago, Jator said:

I'm kinda bummed out by the fact that all the obvious possible new armies are just regular pseudohistorical humans.

The Old World is literally a fantasy pseudohistorical take on the real world though. 😅 It's what the setting is. I think there is a pretty significant cross-over between Warhammer fantasy rank n flank and historical wargamers. Combined with the data sets from Creative Assmebly and the Total War franchise, I think the popularity of Kislev and Grand Cathay cannot be denied. 

Hopefully ToW continues to do well and over the coming years we get to not only explore Kislev, Cathay, Moot and Araby, but stuff like the Zamesi Tribes, Hobgobla-khans, The Kingon of Ind, The Hinterlands of Khuresh and the various Pirate Coasts. That would be cool.