Warhammer - The Old World

[Noserenda]

Yeah they are promising dozens of factions for this which is clearly doing the necromunda thing and showing us what they are planning for the next decade or so rather than on release. Im constantly amazed at how these articles show so little but consistently seem to promise so much! 

Id expect something like Empire (Its a civil war dont y'know? saves on sprues!)  and maybe Orcs on release and then the rest dribble out over years and years.

 

[EntMan]

18 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Id expect something like Empire (Its a civil war dont y'know? saves on sprues!)  and maybe Orcs on release

Just like Blood Bowl second edition!

[Gaz Taylor]

Spotted this on War of Sigmar https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/6426

Mixed thoughts if this is true (and chances are, they are as Hastings has been a rumour dropper for years). I think if done right, this will be good but I would rather have new models

[Baron Klatz]

Yeah, it matches his report during the Sylvaneth expansion:

“for those of you interested in The Old World project, a I can tell you that Bret and Tomb King plastic kits are going back into production, ready to be available when the project launches.”

“Only these two ranges as far as I understand, because many people mourned their loss from the new setting, and GW can make a quick $ off the nostalgia hype and have ZERO dev costs to put into getting them into production again.

As far as I understand a LARGE part of the Old World stuff will be resin.”

“No sorry, I mean the WHOLE of the Old World stuff, including the new stuff, very large amount of resin kits.”

 

Some returning greenskins under FW make sense as those boar boys were released near the End Times and an easy remake & sell to go with the zero cost TK & Brets.

How funny this might end up looking. Old plastics but New Resins on the rest.

A curling Orruk’s paw indeed.  

Edited October 16, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Twisted Firaun]

15 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Spotted this on War of Sigmar https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/6426

Mixed thoughts if this is true (and chances are, they are as Hastings has been a rumour dropper for years). I think if done right, this will be good but I would rather have new models

Maybe he means the 8th edition kits?

[mojojojo101]

Personally I think putting old kits back into production is a bad idea, they are just going to be way, way behind the standard expected from plastic kits these days, especially kits from GW.

The only reason I could see why they would do it is to try and get ahead of 3rd party manufacturers getting in on a space they can't fill, but that is going to happen either way.

I expect the Old World to come out with just a couple of armies of new plastic alongside a basic set of rules so you can play with your old stuff.

I'm also going to predict that this will also come with a significant backlash because from the little I've been paying attention a lot of WHFB stans have really whipped themselves into a frenzy about TOW that can't possibly follow through.

Edited October 16, 2022 by mojojojo101

[Baron Klatz]

8 minutes ago, mojojojo101 said:

I expect the Old World to come out with just a couple of armies of new plastic alongside a basic set of rules so you can play with your old stuff.

 

If what Hastings says pans out and it’s a set of new Resin armies on the Forge World site I think we’ll hit salt fallout that even the AoS launch couldn’t manage.

 

🍿👀

[madmac]

3 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

If what Hastings says pans out and it’s a set of new Resin armies on the Forge World site I think we’ll hit salt fallout that even the AoS launch couldn’t manage.

 

🍿👀

I think he's right. The thing is they can't possibly do anything else. Doing all of the WHFB armies (plus extra!) in plastic would be a project that would take more than a decade to complete even if they had the resources of AoS and 40K combined. If it's resin, then it's at least vaguely in the realm of possible. Of course, they'll do plastic too, HH gets new plastic models once or twice every edition, as far as I can tell.

[EccentricCircle]

I think of the TK stuff, the Sphynxes, snake riders, and tomb guard are all basically fine. They don't look like modern models, but that's a case of art style and aesthetic more than actual quality. A few of the old resin kits are also really nice sculpts (Khalida, Apophis, the Shabti etc). They just don't have the look and feel which a lot of people are used to in their models nowadays.
The chariots and infantry though aren't great. Anything with those old skeleton horses isn't going to hold up. I love them dearly and still like to get my Tomb Kings on the table, but they don't hold up.

I would buy more sphynxes and Shabti in a heartbeat if they came back, maybe more tomb guard, the rest I'd make do with what I've got. (Which to be fair is 2000 points of old models, not everyone will have them).

I've never collected Brets or O&G, so don't know if those are in a similar boat.

Really to properly update Tomb Kings they need:

1) Infantry kit: Builds Archers, Spearmen , and Swordsmen. Have scarab swarms on the same sprue ala necrons.

2) Chariot add on sprue, make it so spearmen can slot into the chariots, they were essentially the same models anyway. Ditch the riders, they didn't have rideable horses in ancient Egypt anyway).

3) Ushabti: plastic kit with melee and ranged variants.

4) Hero kit. I'm envisioning a multi part kit like the witch hunters or battlemages, which can make loads of different characters in different combinations. Have a male and female body, and then options to equipthem as tomb king/queen, liche priest, necrotect etc.

5) Screaming Skull Catapult.

 

That's a lot. And likely isn't going to happen, but combined with enough of the old kits it would make a range.

 

Compare necromunda where each faction has an infantry kit, an upgrade sprue, an elite sprue, and they are now rolling out a vehicle kit for each of them. It's taken maybe five years to get to that though?

 

Edit: Of course if they do just want to bring back old models that don't quite hold up that would actually be fine on one condition

Make them cheap!
I'm not going to pay £40 for a box of old goblin wolf riders, but sell them to me for a tenner? Super, I'd got for that for sure.

Edited October 16, 2022 by EccentricCircle

[Noserenda]

Hehe yeah i looked into a Wolf Rider army in 8th because it sounded fun, but it cost 4 or 5 times the cost of any other cavalry themed army! 

 

[EccentricCircle]

They always claim their exorbitant prices are because they make premium models whatever that means. If they want us to buy 20 year old models then it follows the price should be proportionally lower. Otherwise their whole pricing system is clearly unjustified.

That won't happen. But we can dream.

[Noserenda]

To be fair last time i looked into some old plastics for making conversions, White Lions were well over £100 a box and Bret men at arms were headed that way, even with inflation adjusted prices they are still a saving 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Noserenda

[EccentricCircle]

2 hours ago, Noserenda said:

To be fair last time i looked into some old plastics for making conversions, White Lions were well over £100 a box and Bret men at arms were headed that way, even with inflation adjusted prices they are still a saving 

True. Oop minis are said to be a better investment than gold. I can well see GW wanting a piece of that action. I'm always dubious that the things priced insanely high on ebay etc actually sell for hundreds though. I'm sure I've seen some of the same. CHaos Dwarf listings not sell for years and years, while cheaper listings of the same thing come and go.

[Noserenda]

Oh yeah ebay is mostly a retail store these days, but ive seen White Lions go for £103, thats what put me off! 

[Blueraven84]

I'm just thinking logistics of it all, how most gamestores are gonna find shelf space for fantasy battle products. Maybe re-launch of fb will be more like horus heresy year one instead of hh 2.0 that we currently have...

[Beliman]

2 minutes ago, Blueraven84 said:

I'm just thinking logistics of it all, how most gamestores are gonna find shelf space for fantasy battle products. Maybe re-launch of fb will be more like horus heresy year one instead of hh 2.0 that we currently have...

GW has some options here:

• Rotary Production (Like middle-earth)
• Made to order
• New box-set (Horus Heresy) and the main thing that needs support over time.
• Pick models from other games.

After reading Hasting's rumors, I think that we will see a mix of all of this.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

28 minutes ago, Blueraven84 said:

I'm just thinking logistics of it all, how most gamestores are gonna find shelf space for fantasy battle products. Maybe re-launch of fb will be more like horus heresy year one instead of hh 2.0 that we currently have...

I kind of feel like putting all the old Fantasy models back into production and on store shelves is out of the question when even most of the current Cities of Sigmar range is webstore exclusive.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Easiest way would be to have some sort of start collecting/vanguard box for factions that they can stock those, especially if they're great to keep buying more of to expand the army.

[KingKull]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I kind of feel like putting all the old Fantasy models back into production and on store shelves is out of the question when even most of the current Cities of Sigmar range is webstore exclusive.

Honestly, I don't see this as a problem at all. A lot of Age of Sigmar non-legacy (i.e. non-CoS) armies have old WHFB models (some reaching 20+ years) as their regularly-stocked baseline troops, not to mention "special" units and monsters. Examples that come to mind: Sylvaneth, Gloomspite Gitz, Skaven, Ogres, Beasts of Chaos, Lizardmen.

If ToW armies retained old plastic sculpts in a similar manner and had the rest filled out with 1-2 bespoke plastic kits and 1-2 bespoke resin kits (plus a smattering of characters in both/resin), I'd be perfectly fine with that - like AoS players already seem to be.

All of those could be replaced down the road if/when the game takes off, like GW (probably) intends to replace those skinks, stabbas and dryads for AoS sometime in the future.

Like someone mentioned, the only case I can't see GW keeping *all* the plastic sculpts is tomb kings and their atrocious skeleton archers/spearmen, cavalry and chariots. However, they could address the issue by axing the cavalry (good riddance), make a dual plastic kit for skeletons and another one for chariots, and rounding it out with a couple of resin kits (sphinx, TG, and those snakey boys already look a charm and I'd buy them in a heartbeat).

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

33 minutes ago, KingKull said:

Honestly, I don't see this as a problem at all. A lot of Age of Sigmar non-legacy (i.e. non-CoS) armies have old WHFB models (some reaching 20+ years) as their regularly-stocked baseline troops, not to mention "special" units and monsters. Examples that come to mind: Sylvaneth, Gloomspite Gitz, Skaven, Ogres, Beasts of Chaos, Lizardmen.

If ToW armies retained old plastic sculpts in a similar manner and had the rest filled out with 1-2 bespoke plastic kits and 1-2 bespoke resin kits (plus a smattering of characters in both/resin), I'd be perfectly fine with that - like AoS players already seem to be.

All of those could be replaced down the road if/when the game takes off, like GW (probably) intends to replace those skinks, stabbas and dryads for AoS sometime in the future.

Like someone mentioned, the only case I can't see GW keeping *all* the plastic sculpts is tomb kings and their atrocious skeleton archers/spearmen, cavalry and chariots. However, they could address the issue by axing the cavalry (good riddance), make a dual plastic kit for skeletons and another one for chariots, and rounding it out with a couple of resin kits (sphinx, TG, and those snakey boys already look a charm and I'd buy them in a heartbeat).

I agree with you in so far that I don't think this kind of solution is absolutely impossible. But I am still finding it difficult to reconcile GW's past decisions with their stated goals for The Old World.

Last we heard, TOW will be full 28mm scale, square bases and all Fantasy armies are supposed to be (eventually) playable, including two new factions (Kislev, Cathay) and a bunch of squatted ones (Tomb Kings, Bretonnia, Orks and Goblins). We know GW does not like to sell rules without models.

We also know the speed of their release schedule for AoS (mostly single models, maybe 2-3 more substantial releases per year) and what they think is worth shelf space in their stores (not Cities). And we currently see a trend of eliminating old Fantasy kits (high elves in favour of Lumineth, ostensibly the old empire models in favour of a reimagined Freeguild), without regard towards compatibility of the new lines with Old World.

It really feels like for this whole situation to be workable in a way that makes any financial sense for GW, something will have to give. I just find it hard to imagine that GW is suddenly convinced that putting Bretonnians, the worst selling line of Fantasy models, back on sale in physical stores without updating the models will suddenly be profitable now when it was not 10 years ago. And I find it even harder to believe they will find a way to do it for all Fantasy armies plus a bunch of new ones.

In my opinion, the Old World release will have to initially be limited to only a few factions and will probably be largely webstore exclusive. I think the most likely case is that physical stores will get a starter box with new models and a rule book, and the rest of the minis that are not already being sold for use in AoS will go on some kind of made to order rotation. Otherwise, I feel like the scope GW is suggesting just seems too large to be feasible.

[Beliman]

24 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

We know GW does not like to sell rules without models.

If we take HH 2.0 as an example of a possible outcome, just think that there are a lot of units without models and a supplement with units that you need to proxy or convert (they even have pics to how can you kitbash them).

[EccentricCircle]

It would be more accurate to say AoS and 40k don't like to sell rules without models. In addition to 30k, necromunda often release profiles well ahead of the minis, Middle Earth print all the rules but rotate which models are available. So there are options. 

[Sunshine]

I do prefer the aesthetic of round bases and do not miss the the jigsaw of units on square bases. The ASOIAF route would be my preference. 

It will be interesting to see what they do. They have already said that they will go with square bases but will they really expect people to rebase their miniatures again? There will also be a lot of cross compatibility between AoS and TOW, and people will want to use some of their miniatures across both systems.

[Fulcanelli]

On 10/19/2022 at 11:19 AM, Sunshine said:

I do prefer the aesthetic of round bases and do not miss the the jigsaw of units on square bases. The ASOIAF route would be my preference. 

It will be interesting to see what they do. They have already said that they will go with square bases but will they really expect people to rebase their miniatures again? There will also be a lot of cross compatibility between AoS and TOW, and people will want to use some of their miniatures across both systems.

I agree. I expect GW will sell new adaptable trays to fit the round bases. One more thing to sell us!

Actually I'm not sure if it's perfectly the same in terms of regiment size (square vs round alignment), but still... I can accept a little handicap, I really don't want to rebase an entire army.

[Neverchosen]

So I haven't really been following this thread and I am going to ask a really silly question that I has piqued my interest. Since learning a little about Horus Heresy and how it might impact the rules development of Old World.

So here are my confusing thoughts, which I have tried to word as well as I can. But I will understand when this gets countless confused face reactions as I am probably explaining these ideas very poorly after a long day of work. Please forgive my ignorance of Horus Heresy and any specific Old World rumours, rules or announcements about Old World Rules I may have missed. 

So is it the case that all Horus Heresy units share a basic set of profiles for unit types, then the player determines their specific allegiance (Traitor or Loyalist) then their Chapter? If that is the case would we potentially see a similar sort of army dynamic in old world such as a set of profiles for Humans, Orcs, Elves, Beasts, Skaven, Dwarves, Lizardmen and the all important Halflings?

Taking Elves as the example you could then have a set of profiles and weapons that would apply to all elven units then you could choose to have them be Wood Elves and gain certain benefits lets say deep striking, or Dark Elves and gain other benefits lets say bonus offences? Alternatively you could make a human army and then decide due to your focus on Cavalry, you should make them Brettoinans or Araby for special rules for heavy or light cavalry respectively. But you could still use the rules for Empire, Kislev or Norsca if you so choose, so long as they fit your theme and maybe have benefits to magic or shooting making them a nice alternative?

Sorry, if my whole idea is way off base but I think that would be an interesting approach to the game, but likely would involve loosing some truly characterful units. For example War Hydras don't have an easy fit in Wood Elves and High Elves and Steam Tanks seem very specific to Empire. 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Neverchosen