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How have Gw price rises affected your purchasing habits?


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12 minutes ago, Moldek said:

Well it can be a way to start collecting some of those armies. I’m sure it will expand to include more as time goes by...

I'm really hoping for a cities warband (Underworld or Warcry), but am not holding my breath.

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For me personally I started the hobby 17 years ago when a nice character model was about 8 euro and a big box like a battalion about 40 or 50 if I am not mistaken. However, back then a purchase would

The notable move towards monopose models is also a contributing factor to my increasing unwillingness to drop fat stacks on plastic crack. Having shelled out a fair bit for Chainrasps in 2018, I now h

I misread the title and thought this was a thread about "How have Gw price rises affected your purchasing hobbits?" I don't play LOTR, so not really effected. 

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1 hour ago, XReN said:

Warcry isn't a way to get into aos as it only supports a small amount of armies.

I fully expect Warcry to eventually support all armies. It might even be that the odd split we've got now is a result of the next book having Reapers in it and GW having to delay it until after the Reapers hit the shelves for sale. 

The big question will be if GW sticks with Warcry (which looks likely) and lets skirmish settle to one side or if they try running both; which might be a bit messy. Skirmish is still supported in the Battletomes, it clearly "WAS" the intended and could still be; but Warcry has really taken that Killteam slot and made it its own. Plus with the way they setup boards, terrain and objectives and such with cards it really makes it very accessible to new players and to quick setups. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if we see GW adopt a similar strategy for Killteam; perhaps a V2 of Killteam. 

 

It really helps sell terrain kits from GW when they are reasonably priced and almost like buying a game in a box on its own. 

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12 minutes ago, chord said:

I play skirmish over warcry and even use that as an intro to AOS, as it leads into army building in a much more natural way.

Do you use any house rules? What scenarios do you play?

If they keep warcry as the small skirmish option maybe they could take the meeting engagement approach and create an AoS mode balanced around something like 500 points? Enough for the core rules to work but a lower cost of entry for new players

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1 hour ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

I misread the title and thought this was a thread about "How have Gw price rises affected your purchasing hobbits?"

I don't play LOTR, so not really effected. 

I think I'm actually purchasing more hobbits than I was, because unlike AoS models, the Lord of the Rings stuff is still relatively cheap. Most of the old metal LOTR blisters are still reasonable, its only the newer plastic kits, and some of the stuff that was released along with the hobbit movies that is getting a bit pricey.

Interestingly I think the gradual price increases across the board may be de-senstising me to some of the higher prices. I remember back when the Hobbit sets came out, that the step up in price for what I was used to in LOTR and Warhammer was a step too far, and I hardly bought any of them (In fact that was what made me really dive into WFB, after not quite getting into it before). Now everything has increased to the point that the Hobbit range is in line with everything else, and LOTR looks quite cheap by comparison. Buying AoS models has clearly warped my sense of what is value for money more than I realised!

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6 hours ago, Moldek said:

Do you use any house rules? What scenarios do you play?

If they keep warcry as the small skirmish option maybe they could take the meeting engagement approach and create an AoS mode balanced around something like 500 points? Enough for the core rules to work but a lower cost of entry for new players

No house rules, but we just play don't bring broken stuff.  Cause that would not be fun.  Play the scenarios GW provided as well as the ones in the Files section of TGA.

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On 10/26/2019 at 7:19 PM, Battlefury said:

Even now I can not afford to build up a new army, but there would be options. The hobby itself feels a little like "For rich kidds only, where mommy & daddy pay all the stuff to shut up the annoying kid." now.

I resent that... I'm just plenty rich myself.

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I can honestly say that GW's pricing models have not directly affected me in the past year or so.  Granted, a large part of that is that I have been playing a couple other games lately have been holding my interest and fitting my budget and schedule better.

The last GW kit I purchased was two of the Slaves to Darkness Battleforces last year, and I have barely worked on them at all since.  Yes, the price increases have killed some of my enthusiasm for Age of Sigmar, but that's not my reason for moving on to other games.  My issue is the release schedule - too many new armies and units coming out for me to keep up with them.  As it stands these days, I just get overwhelmed with the sheer amount of models and books that are available to use in the game.  If I did not have the commute, I would probably be able to keep up with more of the new releases, but I just don't have the resources for it anymore.  More options is definitely a good thing for all the players of the game, but not for me.

Plus it also doesn't help that I went from being 25% of the local AoS players to 50% in the last year.  That really hurt.  And with the fact that my closest FLGS is a 45 minute drive away, I am just not able to try and build up the community like I was hoping to in years past.

Time issues aside, I still would probably be looking to other games for new model purchases, as I can spend $320 USD on two Battleforces to get a decent AoS army, or I can spend that on another game and have 3 large armies for that system.  Yes, the prices for GW models go up over time, but so do the costs for everything.  When I do plan out GW armies, I shop around and wait for the Start Collecting or Holiday bundles for those armies, and focus on making a cool, thematic army, and not try to chase the meta or be competitive.

I still love Age of Sigmar, and I do hope it succeeds and continues to grow and do well over the coming years.  The models are awesome, the rules are good, and the fluff was solid when I last looked into it.  But for the time being, I'll probably be focusing more on historicals and smaller-scale sci-fi/fantasy games.

And who knows, when my youngest kids get older, they may pull me back into AoS :)

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For me the price increases have really reign in any impulse buying or buying into an army before I really understand if it's one I'll enjoy or not, it just isn't sustainable especially since I'm paying Australian prices. My budget is also especially limited for the next year so any purchases I make from this point on have to be ones I'm not going to regret and actually see some use. I mean I don't want another Lotaan, such a cool model but so so bad on the tabletop. The price increases will also probably mean that I'll have to space out my purchases way further than I was buying at before, which I'm actually kind of ok with since it means more time for painting but it also means they'll be sitting on the self longer before I can actually play them.

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The price changes early this year forced my hand on a couple of big purchases I was planning for later in the year, but the same amount of plastic has changed hands in the end. I do find myself questioning every purchase now though, I have not bought much at all in the last 6 months, where as 3 years ago I had stacks of plastic waiting to be painted, now instead I have a long list of 'to buy' which never seems to get bought. I will never give this hobby up, but it has got to the point where buying GW models is a special occasion rather than a routine hobby purchase. I still love it.  

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26 minutes ago, Leviadon said:

The price changes early this year forced my hand on a couple of big purchases I was planning for later in the year, but the same amount of plastic has changed hands in the end. I do find myself questioning every purchase now though, I have not bought much at all in the last 6 months, where as 3 years ago I had stacks of plastic waiting to be painted, now instead I have a long list of 'to buy' which never seems to get bought. I will never give this hobby up, but it has got to the point where buying GW models is a special occasion rather than a routine hobby purchase. I still love it.  

See to me at least that’s almost a positive. Probably not what GW intended... I find stacks of unpainted sprue to be pretty depressing, but the prices make it easier for me to restrain from impulse purchases and « earn » them by painting enough models before...

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On 10/31/2019 at 3:22 PM, CentralKarma said:

Exactly, I'm a grown ass man that wants to play with and paint toy soldiers.  

Joking aside, I have found myself buying more used models with the price creep. Something I never did before.  

Same. I try to give my FLGS as much business as possible but its getting harder and harder, especially with the newer models.

Lets use Sylvaneth as an example. Spites and Dryads are both battleline troops in the neighborhood of 10pts per model. 

Dryads are $35 USD for 16 models. You can get 48 of them for ~$105.

Spite Revenants are $40 for 5 models. To get 50 you would pay ~$400.

I don't think this kind of price creep is sustainable. 

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Before descending into doom and gloom about current price increases, I reckoned that a little analytics would present a different story to current pricing and whether this was indeed still a good value hobby. 

So I focused on the Start Collecting sets, and worked backwards, making sure I was valuing the start collecting sets compared to individual sets, the points value, and even a hobby value based on the age of the sculpts and the size of the bases (the bigger the base, the bigger the hobby value such as assembly and paint job 😉).  

This isn’t an exact science, so there may be a few minor inaccuracies (some may say the same for GW pricing) but I thought this would give an idea about pricing approaches and what is to come:

 

Kharadron Overlords Start Collecting

This 2018 boxset released was for AoS 2.0, but with AoS 1.0 models

Contents (price individually/points in Pitched Battle):

Endrinmaster                                        £17.50/120pts

5 Grundstok Thunderers               £25/90 pts

3 Skywardens/3 Endriggers          £25/100 or 120 pts

Grundstok Gunhauler                     £30/130 pts

 

Total saving on individual spend:

£97.50 - £60 = £37.50 saved

Total army points value: 440/460 pts

 

Hobby value:

5xunit models on 32mm bases

1x hero on 32mm base

3xcavalry unit on 32mm bases

1xartillery unit on 105mm base

Hobby comments: A slim box with not a lot of plastic, and low model count (10). Gunhauler isn’t bad though, and these are Age of Sigmar sculpts, not Oldhammer.

 

Overall comment:

A decent saving of £37.50 masks problems of pricing. The Grundstok Thunderers are massively overpriced individually (£25 for 5 models/ 1 model on 32mm bases at £5 per model/ or 3.6pts for £1). The Gunhauler is better value (4.3 pts per £1), but it isn’t brilliant. The hero is of good value for points (6.9pts per £1). The cavalry is almost standard but you get only 3 (better than the Grundstok Thunderers value, but not the best out there). Overall, the set is not great value for the hobbyist, even with some eye-catching models, and is basic value for the gamer (7.3 pts per £1), set against absurd prices individually. Overall, a slim boxset masking problems of over-pricing for individual boxes and poor hobby value overall.

 

Seraphon Start Collecting:

This 2016 boxset was released for AoS 1.0 using Oldhammer models

Contents (price individually/points in Pitched Battle):

Oldblood on Carnosaur     £50/240 pts

8 Saurus Knights                £22.50/ 80pts for 5 (both only have 8 knights)

12 Saurus Warriors          £25 (for 20)/ 90pts for 10

 

Total saving on individual spend:

£97.50 - £55 = £42.50

Total Army value (based on complete units): 410 pts

Total Skirmish value (based on models): 476 pts

 

Hobby value:

1xbehemoth hero on 120mm oval base

12xunit models on 32mm bases

8xcavalry models on 60mm Oval bases

Hobby comments: big box of plastic, with a centrepiece model in the carnosaur. Lots of accessories too. Sure, they’re Oldhammer sculpts, but they stand up very well compared to the recent ones.

 

Overall comment:

Annoyingly incomplete boxset for matched play (5 extra models or 2 incomplete units), but good for Skirmish or combined with other SC boxes. And you can’t go wrong with the hobby side with a massive model in the carnosaur which is £50 on its own. Points wise, not bad at all (9.5 pts per £1), against individual costs of 4.8 pts for £1 (Carnosaur) and 7.2 pts for £1(warriors). Pricing for Seraphon seem good both individually (although pricey for the carnosaur in Matched Play) and balanced in this boxset both for gamer and the hobbyist.

 

Beastclaw Riders Start Collecting:

This 2016 boxset was released for AoS 1.0 using Oldhammer models

Contents (price individually/points in Matched Play):

1 Stonehorn                          £37.5/400 pts

4 Mournfang Pack               £40/280pts 

  

Total saving on individual spend:

£77.50 - £55 = £22.50

Total Army value: 680 pts

 

Hobby value:

1xbehemoth hero on 120mm oval base

4x large cavalry unit models on 90mm Oval bases

Hobby comments: Despite only 5 models, this is a big box of plastic, with a centrepiece model in the Stonehorn.

 

Overall comment:

A baffling boxset in some ways. You only save £22.50 on individual prices, but you get plenty in terms of hobby and gaming. The best value Start Collecting set around, with 680pts to play with (12.4 pts per £1), one centrepiece model for the hobbyists, and four large models that also look good. What is odd about this, is that in terms of value, individually Beastclaw units are priced fairly. Invidually, the Stonehorn is great value both for the points and for the model. However, you still get some savings on SC box, so it’s worth it.

  

Greywater Fastness Start Collecting:

This 2019 was boxset released for AoS 2.0, using mostly Oldhammer models

Contents (price individually/points in Matched Play):

1 Warden King                     £15/110 pts

1 Cogsmith                           £15/60pts

10 Ironbreakers                   £30/130 pts

1 Gyrobomber                      £30/80 pts

 

Total saving on individual spend:

£90 - £60 = £30

Total Army value: 380 pts

 

Hobby value:

1xhero on 32mm base

1xhero on 25mm base

10xunit models on 25mm bases

1xartillery model on 50mm base

Hobby comments: 13 models, 2 heroes on small bases and an artillery piece from mostly old sculpts. Hardly spectacular, and it shows in the slim box size – half the size of Beastclaw and Seraphon start collecting boxes.

Overall comment:

You’d be forgiven in thinking ‘what the heck?’ when looking at this start collecting set. 380 pts for £60 is awful value (6.3pts per £1). Worse than the Kharadron set, and masks the terrible value of individual prices but only just. The gyrobomber is ok as a model, but individually at £30, is nowhere near worth it (2.6pts per £1), both for the model, and for the points. And the Start Collecting boxset hardly makes up for that poor value. The heroes are lacklustre choices. Even thematically, this could have been so much better for Greywater Fastness (including a hellblaster volley gun?) The fact this has been priced as a ‘premium’ start collecting set (not £55 but £60) beggars belief for what are mostly old sculpts. This is at best £50s worth of models for £60, and I'm being charitable there.

 

Summary:

I was hoping to show some rhyme and reason in the recent pricing that I had somehow overlooked, but couldn’t, alas. If that doesn’t show what a mess pricing is, I don’t think anything will.

Games Workshop are pricing products arbitrarily; not in terms of points value, hobby value, new sculpts nor materials value – their pricing is all over the place. 

To then apply price increases feels even more absurd given the baseline prices reflect no sensible (or transparent) reasoning whatsoever. If the most recent Start Collecting sets (as in Greywater Fastness) represents GWs approach for future sets, and by extension, individual boxes, then I suspect any pricing increases in the future will also not reflect any reason other than a requirement to improve their profits by some alchemical or byzantine process. 

So going from a point of optimism, I now despair (a little). Perhaps I will find more sanity in pricing from eBay resellers from now on?

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Just one thought the math may not reflect consumer value issues as much as fixed production costs that are then spread across expected number of sales they expect to see.

We know in the past GW has said that the costs to produce a plastic mold are very high the last number I recall quoted (albeight a  long time ago) was 100,000 pounds for a new mold.  If sales of a model produced from a mold are low (character models where you might need one per army or an unpopular army)  the fixed costs that they are distributing amongst the individual units sold ends up being pretty high per sale.    If you've got a kit where you expect to sell lots the fixed costs are low per sale is low (edited to add some words to this sentence.) 

On the other hand they may look at some kits as loss leaders - the starter boxes for all their games tend to be really good value for the contents.  They may be selling them at a relative loss in the hopes it generates new players who buy more.   

 

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37 minutes ago, gjnoronh said:

Just one thought the math may not reflect consumer value issues as much as fixed production costs that are then spread across expected number of sales they expect to see.

We know in the past GW has said that the costs to produce a plastic mold are very high the last number I recall quoted (albeight a  long time ago) was 100,000 pounds for a new mold.  If sales of a model produced from a mold are low (character models where you might need one per army or an unpopular army)  the fixed costs that they are distributing amongst the individual units sold ends up being pretty high per sale.    If you've got a kit where you expect to sell lots the fixed costs are low.

On the other hand they may look at some kits as loss leaders - the starter boxes for all their games tend to be really good value for the contents.  They may be selling them at a relative loss in the hopes it generates new players who buy more.   

 

Blimey! £100k for a mold sounds a tad pricey. By that reckoning the Bonereapers cost £millions to bring out, almost the same price as a budget movie!

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3 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

Blimey! £100k for a mold sounds a tad pricey. By that reckoning the Bonereapers cost £millions to bring out, almost the same price as a budget movie!

Yep they are big scary numbers. The benefit is those plastic moulds will outlast the same volume of production that resin or metal ones would and are also faster to produce with less labour. Plastic is great, its start up costs are just huge for the mould and equipment. GW can work with plastics because they've got the market to sell big volumes. 

If Reapers are £100K for each mould (more likely that there's variation but lets just run with this as a rough value). That's 12 new models (only counting duel kits once and not including those that were in production before Reapers started) which means a cost of £1,200,000 just for the moulds. We're not including staff wages, design time, test copies, etc.... Heck not even including box production. So yep that's a big number. GW can afford such numbers because they've the infrastructure and market to make it work. 

However if you look at many other companies they work with resins and metals (esp when starting out). Whilst they are slower to produce and cost more in labour, they are far cheaper in moulds. So it takes them far less time to recoup their investment and less market needed. There's also more hybird resin/plastics out there now which are shifting things around some. 

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Agree entirely it's why companies selling plastic toys to kids (which usually aren't as nice as our toys) or plastic widgets for various home uses can do them at a relatively cheap price. There are a lot of kids out there eager to get their next Transformer or GI Joe kit or non branded knock off imitation.  The costs of the mold get distributed amongst a lot more sales.  

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16 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

Wow, why is a plastic mould so expensive?

It depends where you get the low down on costs which varies on the internet from £100k to as little as £30k.

Thing is, no one knows for sure how much GW spends on production costs unless you look at their yearly report which doesn't drill down to individual minis.

I've had a trawl through the internet over the last hour and the costs are as clear as mud.

Edited by Mcthew
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I'm no expert on this but GW had talked about it in White Dwarf maybe 10-15 years ago. Costs may have changed since then.

The issue is highly detailed injection plastic molds are pretty complicated to make and are big freaking thngs.

You can make a mold at home out of greenstuff or bluestuff and do simple resin or greenstuff casts of a piece of a miniature in about 20 minutes.   but that's not going to maintain high detail fidelity long term or be able to handle the kind of industrial high speed turn arounds we'd expect.   Home made casts for resin larger pieces are also pretty easy but significantly more complicated then a simple bluestuff mold.  They still aren't up to long term high detail casting.   Commercial resin casting is another step up and as we know from finecast are harder to manage to avoid miscasting then plastics.    Metal casting is a still more challenging beast and requires more to it, not least of which is the replacement rate as the molds wear out from the heat of the molten metal.  Fundamentally those technologies are things you could set up with a couple of skilled workers things you could get easily on the internet or at a hardware store and enough time.   There are youtube videos available for all of these that could show you how you theoretically could do it at home.   

Large scale injection molding plastic casting is purely an industrial process meaning you are talking about setting up a factory line to run this.    Think long assembly lines and big  expensive machines.    It's not the kind of thing you are doing in your backyard.  It's largely factories in China that all the miniature manufacturers are contracting their work out to.   

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