Ossiarch Bonereapers, hideously overpowered?

[Ninjon]

If a unit finishes a charge and I spend 1CP... then immediately spend another, what has changed? There is no after-effect of spending the first CP that changes the game state. When spending the 2nd CP, has a unit still “finished a charge”? Why yes, it has! 
 

Im fighting the semantics here, because that’s what you are choosing to lean on for this argument. I’m not saying your assessment is wrong in the “intention of the rule”, but again it would have been easy and consistent to just use the word “once” in this CA wording, and they didn’t. 

[Ninjon]

5 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

Yeah it does not say limit once which is an issue. Harvesters are also an issue until they say within 3” of a harvester instead of this model, as you can currently park two behind a unit of 40 Mortek and they are impossible to kill.

I think the Harvester thing will stay as is, because it’s a massive point investment in an army that struggles greatly in that area, and it’s not THAT big of a footprint on the battlefield. What we need is board control, and while opens up some really interesting options to do so, it is quite easy to undermine (get rid of one harvester). 

[Dolomyte]

12 minutes ago, Ninjon said:

I think the Harvester thing will stay as is, because it’s a massive point investment in an army that struggles greatly in that area, and it’s not THAT big of a footprint on the battlefield. What we need is board control, and while opens up some really interesting options to do so, it is quite easy to undermine (get rid of one harvester). 

Ehhhhh I don’t know dude. While I do not think that it is the best play, and I don’t think a ton of people would do it, I think a few people would and against a bunch of lists it would make the game absolutely miserable and. I don’t think there’s any reason that I can’t just be within 3 inches of a Harvester. Still powerful and still may be worth taking two in some lists but prevents a potential endless loop

[JackStreicher]

5 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

 

I don't get why people automatically assume that the Deathriders Command Ability can be used multiple times. We all know it's not meant to be

 

We actually don‘t - we‘re talking about GW rules here, they‘ve got quite a reputation for such absurdness...

[Sleboda]

10 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

We all know it's not meant to be.

"We all know" is really not a good justification for a rules interpretation.

Like, not at all.

Not saying it won't get ruled the way you see it, just that the reason is perilously close to the false idea of "common sense." 

 

On the harvester thing, I don't think multiples will trigger the benefit more than once. In fact, if you want to get picky, one could argue that having two in range could stop the benefit. You are no longer within range of "a" (as in one) harvester - you are in range of more than one, so the rule ceases to trigger. I'm not saying that's how it works, just pointing out where the argument could go.

To me it seems that the event is checked for once and the benefit is triggered if the condition is met, no matter how many times.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Sleboda

[Volkhov]

I have it first hand from one of the rules design team that they intend the Kavalos charge to be stackable, and if it end up too strong they’ll go back and limit it later 

[KK9T]

13 minutes ago, Volkhov said:

I have it first hand from one of the rules design team that they intend the Kavalos charge to be stackable, and if it end up too strong they’ll go back and limit it later 

[Volkhov]

I mean believe me or don’t that’s on you, but it’s not without precedent. The iron hands faq that just came out said as much. If something is questionable they’ll leave it in and see how it goes before errata/faqing it.

[Dolomyte]

Right they FAQd that within 2 weeks. They will do the same with this when the Ossiarch one comes out. It’s incredibly broken as is.

[JackStreicher]

34 minutes ago, Dolomyte said:

Right they FAQd that within 2 weeks. They will do the same with this when the Ossiarch one comes out. It’s incredibly broken as is.

GW rules.... why do they strife to be the worst I wonder

[Dolomyte]

I don’t know. Two week after faqs and biyearly updates including yearly points seems pretty solid to me. Do they miss stuff sure, but they do a relatively good job of fixing it

[JackStreicher]

13 hours ago, Dolomyte said:

I don’t know. Two week after faqs and biyearly updates including yearly points seems pretty solid to me. Do they miss stuff sure, but they do a relatively good job of fixing it

The way I see it (and gw puts it themselves) they‘re selling a premium product. A premium product with rules with an alpha/beta-version of quality. So how is that premium? 

[whispersofblood]

24 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

The way I see it (and gw puts it themselves) they‘re selling a premium product. A premium product with rules with an alpha/beta-version of quality. So how is that premium? 

Chill the rules aren't that bad. GW just prioritizes feel over the height of possible balance. And, tbh I don't really blame them a very small sliver of the community plays AoS because they want to engage in the manipulation of advanced mechanics. 

A powerful model that doesn't feel powerful, no matter if it's costed correctly is going to flop. See IDK for several examples, the Land raider for many many years, etc, etc.

[JackStreicher]

4 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Chill the rules aren't that bad. GW just prioritizes feel over the height of possible balance. And, tbh I don't really blame them a very small sliver of the community plays AoS because they want to engage in the manipulation of advanced mechanics. 

A powerful model that doesn't feel powerful, no matter if it's costed correctly is going to flop. See IDK for several examples, the Land raider for many many years, etc, etc.

You don‘t get the point. It‘s about bad rules that affect friendly games:

for example Slaanesh: if your mate just throws in models he likes (1-3 Keepers because they‘re just awesomely looking) and plays against your army he will most likely slaughter you big time, every time.

same with iron hands. 

the rules are too often (by no means always) plainly bad and quite honestly a shame in too many cases: we pay for a premium product, we don‘t pay to be beta-testers.

you argument with „the feel“, I argument with untested sloppy designs and a lack of communication among the internal Departments. (Looking at you: the lack of chapter supplements for Chaos Space Marines, looking at you mercenary companies, looking at you constantly re-overpriced units, looking at you terrible internal balance, looking at you artefacts and command traits no one in their right mind would ever pick willingly)

Edited November 3, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Kugane]

Sloppy design is limiting my purchases a lot as well. I love the riders for example, but if they get nerfed I am not sure if they are even worth it. Same with the harvester combo.

The time it takes to play out a game probably limits their ability to betatest stuff. So they should hire people to test stuff for them. 

Regardless, its a discussion we have had in other threads recently, so we should probably just return to the OBR discussion itself before we get sidetracked too much.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Kugane

[whispersofblood]

28 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

You don‘t get the point. It‘s about bad rules that affect friendly games:

for example Slaanesh: if your mate just throws in models he likes (1-3 Keepers because they‘re just awesomely looking) and plays against your army he will most likely slaughter you big time, every time.

same with iron hands. 

the rules are too often (by no means always) plainly bad and quite honestly a shame in too many cases: we pay for a premium product, we don‘t pay to be beta-testers.

you argument with „the feel“, I argument with untested sloppy designs and a lack of communication among the internal Departments. (Looking at you: the lack of chapter supplements for Chaos Space Marines, looking at you mercenary companies, looking at you constantly re-overpriced units, looking at you terrible internal balance, looking at you artefacts and command traits no one in their right mind would ever pick willingly)

I never made a comment on the nature of balance... My point was whole contained in describing GWs bias towards 'feel' as opposed to a more contextual balance. 

Then I said I don't blame them, and point to IDK being a deeply unsatisfying army to play that points can't resolve because the feel is wrong. 

In a world of many options some will just be bad. From a math perspective, from a utility perspective or both. A warscroll that is poorly costed can always have it's points adjusted. But warscrolls get updated much less frequently so hitting the right feel is not a bad target to have. It's not like these tasks are mutual exclusive.

Edited November 3, 2019 by whispersofblood

[Kitsumy]

Of course they are absolute broken. Every tome is a powercreep. With some of them being on levels like fec and skavens. Then slanesh. And now this.

 

Katakros is cheap. Not absurdly cheap. But cheaper than i thought he woukd be.

 

Mortek guard are..... Absurd??? 130p for 10w saving at 3, reroling faill always when u need it?? With a 6+++ and reviving 6-9 models per turn if u have some heros cloose ( u should) Sure that wont be broken at all.

 

The 4 arms dudes are sligthy bad on base. But after using his special ability they get to op levels. Exactly same stats per point than others elites but with 1 better rend for free. Why not. With better save and access to revives or heals....

 

The artillery is nuts. It is the best ranged dps unit by far and having full table range....

 

Cavalry is ok. Strong but not as broken as others units at first glimpse

Edited November 4, 2019 by Gaz Taylor
Removed some offensive wording

[DioRa]

23 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

Of course they are absolute broken. Every tome is a powercreep. With some of them being on levels like fec and skavens. Then slanesh. And now this.

 

Katakros is cheap. Not absurdly cheap. But cheaper than i thought he woukd be.

 

Mortek guard are..... Absurd??? 130p for 10w saving at 3, reroling faill always when u need it?? With a 6+++ and reviving 6-9 models per turn if u have some heros cloose ( u should) Sure that wont be broken at all.

 

The 4 arms dudes are sligthy bad on base. But after using his special ability they get to op levels. Exactly same stats per point than others elites but with 1 better rend for free. Why not. With better save and access to revives or heals....

 

The artillery is nuts. It is the best ranged dps unit by far and having full table range....

 

Cavalry is ok. Strong but not as broken as others units at first glimpse

Quite the outburst there.

Katakros is still 1/4 of your army, as a solo piece he is not going to dominate. I can't imagine him being much of a competitive pick to be honest. Due to this army being starved for points.

Mortek guard, only 3+ in one subfaction. I will admit that the petrifex subfaction will be the most popular out there. The reroll saves ability still costs RD points to use. So kill the armies heroes and you starve them out of points to use all these fancy CA abilities. 130pts for 10 ain't cheap, in an army starved for points and board pressence (see where im going with this).

Stalkers are best killing unit. Should we have no killing units at all? Again i bet these guys won't be as widespread picked as kurnoth hunters.

Mortek crawler, scared of that thing? It has no rend, it's 200 pts and needs all the buffs that the heroes could be giving to other units to make it extremely effective. Not to mention it's our only ranged piece. I think it can work if you build a list around only these guys, and then you have a pretty static army. 1 of these in a combat oriented list would be a waste of 200 pts that you'd rather use to buy 3 more stalkers with.

I think cav is being undervalued together with morghasts. Everyone looks at the killing stats and seems to ignore the mov value. Sure you can use an ability to move faster but it still costs you RD that you are not using now for the +1 attack, reroll saves etc.

Any smart opponent will focus on the ossiarch support heroes first and use speed to the advantage of manouvering. Because the ossiarch is a small slow moving army, one that kind of needs to stay clumped together for the buffs to work to make the units do something.

The sky is falling on paper, i think any competent smart opponent can abuse the flaws of the ossiarch army.

[JPjr]

Is it too early to start a...

Slaves to Darkness, hideously overpowered! Oh god GW are such idiots they’ve ruined the game for the 50th time this week alone, I hate everything to do with this game, it’s such a load of rubbish, GW are hateful morons that wouldn’t know how to create a decent game, Archaon is too powerful, Chaos Knights are too strong, typical stupid power creep. AoS won’t make it to 2020 at this rate, in fact let’s just put it out of its misery now because if you like this game then you’re an even bigger idiot than GW. Anyway why can’t I find anyone to play with?

... thread yet?

[Kugane]

I feel like katakros would be amazing in 3k or 4k battles though. The army as a whole feels like its a prelude to something armageddon-like in AOS XD

[Harioch]

Just now, Kugane said:

I feel like katakros would be amazing in 3k or 4k battles though. The army as a whole feels like its a prelude to something armageddon-like in AOS XD

I'm sure we'll get there someday 😁

[Kugane]

4 minutes ago, JPjr said:

Is it too early to start a...

Slaves to Darkness, hideously overpowered! Oh god GW are such idiots they’ve ruined the game for the 50th time this week alone, I hate everything to do with this game, it’s such a load of rubbish, GW are hateful morons that wouldn’t know how to create a decent game, Archaon is too powerful, Chaos Knights are too strong, typical stupid power creep. AoS won’t make it to 2020 at this rate, in fact let’s just put it out of its misery now because if you like this game then you’re an even bigger idiot than GW. Anyway why can’t I find anyone to play with?

... thread yet?

The black colour scheme of the models is clear powercreep. You cant see equipment properly in a poorly lit room and this leads to cheesy WYSIWYG builds.  

[Laststand]

On 11/1/2019 at 1:32 AM, Dolomyte said:

at what point at the catapults scary? If someone takes one, at 200 points mind you, against most hero’s it has a 50 percent chance or worse to do any damage, against some armies it’s near useless, and against a rare few it’s very very good. 

if you take three your spending 600 points on them, which again could be worthless depending on matchup. I just don’t see them as threatening in the slightest. What am I missing?

Two catapults shooting the standard ammo have 6 shots on 2+, 3+. That averages out to 3.33 saves to make. If a 5 wound hero fails one he dies. If most other characters fail 2 they die. Some heroes can take 10 damage but  not many. They can also go for elite units that tend to be strong but low in numbers. Yes they have no rend but each save roll is real jeopardy. The range is also a thing. 36" is ridiculous and can pretty much reach the entire board, 12 wounds takes a huge amount of chewing through.

Yes the special shots are strong and situational but the standard shooting is exceptional. 

 

[Clan's Cynic]

1 hour ago, JPjr said:

Is it too early to start a...

Slaves to Darkness, hideously overpowered! Oh god GW are such idiots they’ve ruined the game for the 50th time this week alone, I hate everything to do with this game, it’s such a load of rubbish, GW are hateful morons that wouldn’t know how to create a decent game, Archaon is too powerful, Chaos Knights are too strong, typical stupid power creep. AoS won’t make it to 2020 at this rate, in fact let’s just put it out of its misery now because if you like this game then you’re an even bigger idiot than GW. Anyway why can’t I find anyone to play with?

... thread yet?

Yawn. The same tired old complaining about complaining that wasn't clever the first time you posted about it.

[Overread]

I could potentially see the catapults get their damage per hit reduced. Their number of attacks and accuracy isn't much of an issue, though the amount of damage per hit could be reduced by 1 at the higher levels when its undamaged. That could just mitigate them being very swingy in the early phases of the game without harming their latter game performance. 

 

As for the complaining about complaining about complaining if we get too far down that rabbit hole we'll go mad as a march hare at a tea party