How would you fix the horde meta?

[Kaylethia]

1 hour ago, Eevika said:

Well still pretty close im from Finland

Howdy, northern neighbour!

On topic: In the events I've run so far, I've tried to balance battleplans and realms in such a way that different styles of army have a slight advantage. A plan with regular scoring, one with heroes, another with behemoths, based on ageneral feeling that elite armies cannot always compete, while we have Ironjawz and BCR players. Our community is on the small side, we've had multiple 1k events and a doubles event this weekend, working up to 1,5 and 2k around fall or winter, so this is more anecdotal and local shenanigans than anything actionable.

[Kyriakin]

Bring back Preyton, and change his Warscroll so that each and every one-wound model within 50 inches suffers a Mortal Wound.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Kyriakin

[prochuvi]

Yes hordes are overpower and the blame is the battleplans.

 

Easy fix:

 

Huge buffs to heros and moreover to heros witouth auras or command skills(as grimwrath berzerkers)

Huge buffs to behemots or delete the stupid degrading stats

Changue every battleplans of number of models to control objetives to number of wounds so behemoths and elites have a chance

[twrightii]

I think the big issue is that it is harder for elite armies to hold objectives against hordes. However the wound per model isn't necessarily the best as something like a Dankhold Troggboss packs 12 wounds in a very small footprint. I think having models hold objectives based on half their remaining wounds rounded up would be a good middle ground. You could also do something like add the bravery of unit to its model count allowing a few righteous hero's to hold objectives against a horde.

I've also thought it would be cool to add a 5th value (maybe AoS 3.0 update) for the objective value. Something like a Stormcast Liberator could have an objective value of 2 vs say Judicators having an objective value of 1 making them more suited to the role they should have on the table.

[overtninja]

So, in a game like this it's almost always better to just bring more dudes - you cover larger areas, which is really good for covering objectives, and while you present a large target, you present a very tough target with lots of wounds. Meanwhile, elite forces concentrate their power in small numbers of units, which allows you to concentrate all your attacks on them and kill them, or zone them out with a wall of bodies. It was the same way in WHF - having a unit of like 60 models with trash offensive and defensive power was better than everything else in most cases, because it was so resilient, never ran, and was impossible to kill through.

Hordes are also not zoned out of movement the same way that larger models are - they can move through small spaces, which huge models might find themselves essentially zoned out by terrain. They've got a lot of things going for them!

That said, there are spells and abilities that specifically hose them, and if they are common in your meta, you should avail yourself of them and, frankly, abuse them until people cut that garbage out. 

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Kyriakin said:

Bring back Preyton, and change his Warscroll so that each and every one-wound model within 50 inches suffers a Mortal Wound.

That is the worst idea I have seen.

[Qaz]

Dunno man. My Fyreslayers doesn't feel right at <70 models. Too elite. A real army would be one at around 100. And a horde is one at 120+ models . That being said, my local is being dominated by Fyreslayers, DoK and FEC, none are actually over 70 models.  Hardly a horde meta. 

Although it'll be nice if your 'size' contributes to controlling objectives but I'll would classify things differently: Monsters = 10 models, Monstrous Infantry = 3 models

 

[TheCovenLord]

The fix to me lies within changing the warscrolls of the elite units. Buffs are more efficient to place on hordes and always will be. Just need to bring all the "elites" up in line by making them extremely efficient baseline so they can at least compete with the hordes on the fighting side of the game. That, or provide them special rules that let them do things hordes cannot do. Stuff like strike first/teleporting/run and charge SHOULD have been reserved for elite warscrolls to make them feel elite. Elites shouldn't necessarily be just better combat machines they should Shake up the game. That's where the abilities that bend the rules should be placed. Not hordes. Let hordes be kill bricks. Let elites be tools and scalpels. I feel very strongly that GW dropped the ball here.

 This is how age of sigmar IS right now and you see it everywhere in basically all of the updated factions. Elites are NOT represented on their warscroll and are paying a premium for? Nothing in most cases. Or the special rules are so niche it is just beyond irrelevant. 

To everyone saying "just don't play that way, use hordes/hordes have to be better". Why even pretend to offer MSU or small model count armies as a playstyle then?  If it's just the illusion of support, it is very deceptive on GW's part. It invalidates large parts of many factions (Ex: BoC) as taking the 'elites'  of most is actually a handicap. And since they usually do not offer any special rules beyond slight combat tweaks on their profile they add literally nothing to your strategy and are easily overcome by horde bonuses at better cost. 

 Taking this a step further it becomes even more ridiculous when you realize there is a whole supported BATTLETOME army (Beastclaw) that is currently purely marketed to deceive/prey on new players who may pick them up for a variety of reasons without thinking immediately about in game ability. Why even waste the cost of production/pretend effort at support?

I do not want to see dominance of elite factions I have had more than my fill of that in Warmahordes. But I would like to see A VARIETY OF THEM actually be represented and compete. Or even better. Be integrated with a useful roles provided by UNIQUE ABILITIES that ALTER GAMEPLAY. 

[Mogwai Man]

Fix overpriced elite units and monsters.

[Kramer]

Couldn’t find a post offering this tid-bit. 

But at the start of the second ghb they said they were actively trying to push towards more common soldiers instead of too much focus on big heroes. 

So if that’s still their vision of the game it’s kind of working. So all in all I don’t think they will, or should, change anything. Rather change the outliers unless it fits the narrative such as with Slaanesh. Or troll and beastclaw raiders armies for another example. 

[Click5]

This is just a bug in the Warhammer system.  Without more granularity in the costing, and more nuance in battle plans, it devolves into more bodies = more wounds = more dice = better (which also equals selling more models)

...Until you tip the scales by making something elite so good, that it becomes feelsbad and starts to effect the perception of scale, where it will be inevitably nerfed.  See the Castellan 

[Ironbreaker]

Don't even get me started on Skeletons. I can't even engage the units in combat. My army, Dispossessed, puts out very little damage and the strike back from the Skeletons blows anything I throw at them out of the water. It's basically sacrificing a unit to engage them in combat. I'd have to engage my entire army in combat and hope that other 40 skeleton blob didn't pounce on what was left over from the combat. 

[novakai]

I would say that the IDK eel list are probably a good gage of how an elite army can function well currently, if they could design some armies with that power level we could see more elite armies in the game. 

[Eevika]

13 hours ago, overtninja said:

So, in a game like this it's almost always better to just bring more dudes - you cover larger areas, which is really good for covering objectives, and while you present a large target, you present a very tough target with lots of wounds. Meanwhile, elite forces concentrate their power in small numbers of units, which allows you to concentrate all your attacks on them and kill them, or zone them out with a wall of bodies. It was the same way in WHF - having a unit of like 60 models with trash offensive and defensive power was better than everything else in most cases, because it was so resilient, never ran, and was impossible to kill through.

Hordes are also not zoned out of movement the same way that larger models are - they can move through small spaces, which huge models might find themselves essentially zoned out by terrain. They've got a lot of things going for them!

That said, there are spells and abilities that specifically hose them, and if they are common in your meta, you should avail yourself of them and, frankly, abuse them until people cut that garbage out. 

Why would GW then even make elite armies a thing if they know they are absolute garbage?

[Skreech Verminking]

29 minutes ago, Eevika said:

Why would GW then even make elite armies a thing if they know they are absolute garbage?

Well it’s funny and probably unbelievable, but there where times when those elite armies that had/have a battletome, very actually quit good at winning.

Even beastclaw where fantastic for some time.

Its the same with stormcast, actually or other elite armies like IDK.

there was a time when they were good, which for some hasn’t changed.

sure the skaven and fec came and turned the meta a few decreases.

Still some stormcast aren’t really that bad if you consider, sure evocations might have gotten a slight points increase etc. But most of their stuff also got a quit good decrease in points.

sure Idoneth might have hit a bit hard since they well got their eels kicked up a notch on points, but at least your friendly blind aelves are here to rescue you from full destruction,

might make listbuilding a bit more interesting.

as for the meta, I actually haven’t seen too many Hordes dominating the meta right now.

sure we could call the skaven a horde army, but having seen most of the list used at tournaments, I am not even sure if that play style can be really c alles lots of body’s.

sure we have the possibility to spam plague monks like hell, if we consider going out fully on pestilence, and yes there nothing to really argue here, Plague monks are very very strong and more then just a bit undercosted. 

But really the rest doesn’t really seem to be used really often.

I mean what monster fears deathfrenzied clanrats, sure Stormvermins might be something different, but they die very very quickly.

amd even if you sent your monster in there, as long as he doesn’t cost 450p and can possible kill of 21of those Stormvermins, he will make them basically worse the. Clanrats.

FEC, not really sure what to say, seems like most player where interested in running 2ghoulking on terrorgheist, 2archregents and some meathsields which are required to be taken as battleline.

so not sure what hordes are really controlling the tournament scene.

Although there’s one list that comes up in my mind.

also almost all new armies good a small or drastic change in points, as well as some changes in their rules etc. 

I’d actually wait a bit, the meta might shift again, and who knows what this time will be coming.

[MrZakalwe]

17 hours ago, Smooth criminal said:

Well, you're in luck, because in 2019 game rapidly went into direction of monster mash meta. Aside from some obvious horde factions like gobbos and skaven (and even they can bring some overtuned monsters).

Even Skaven haven't been a horde army since the rework. 

Successful skaven lists normally involved minimum battle line and then spammed verminlords and endless spells. They were a monster mash super elite side with some battleline chaff for screening if you wanted to be competitive until yesterday, who knows what they are now. Either way a horde side they weren't (is it honestly a horde army if it maxes behemoths and has less than 70 models total?). 

15 hours ago, prochuvi said:

Yes hordes are overpower and the blame is the battleplans.

 

Easy fix:

 

Huge buffs to heros and moreover to heros witouth auras or command skills(as grimwrath berzerkers)

Huge buffs to behemots or delete the stupid degrading stats

Changue every battleplans of number of models to control objetives to number of wounds so behemoths and elites have a chance

The top tables have recently been dominated by lists that have 3 or 4 behemoths (FEC and Skaven) while Hedonites of Slaanesh even get a buy two get one free deal on Keepers of Secrets

Hordes are so ridiculously OP that... they tend to be a support element to Behemoth spam.

Edited July 9, 2019 by MrZakalwe

[novakai]

26 minutes ago, MrZakalwe said:

Even Skaven haven't been a horde army since the rework. 

Successful skaven lists normally involved minimum battle line and then spammed verminlords and endless spells. They were a monster mash super elite side with some battleline chaff for screening if you wanted to be competitive until yesterday, who knows what they are now. Either way a horde side they weren't (is it honestly a horde army if it maxes behemoths and has less than 70 models total?). 

The top tables have recently been dominated by lists that have 3 or 4 behemoths (FEC and Skaven) while Hedonites of Slaanesh even get a buy two get one free deal on Keepers of Secrets

Hordes are so ridiculously OP that... they tend to be a support element to Behemoth spam.

6

not really true, since spamming over a hundred plague monks at max size with two furnance seems to be also strong. 

Edited July 9, 2019 by novakai

[MrZakalwe]

2 minutes ago, novakai said:

not really true, since spamming over a hundred plague monks with a furnance seems to be also strong 

But they couldn't compete with the Verminlord spam lists nor could it compete with Gristlegore triple threat lists. 

They were a strong list but not the strongest way to play Skaven.

So sorry dude, it really is true. Daughters of Khaine are basically the only meta side where the horde is the core of the army rather than something you throw in to screen for behemoths. 
1 side and 1 off build do not a horde meta make. 

[Laststand]

22 hours ago, XReN said:

Why do you think it's not a valid reason? I want my SCE to be the elite army they are in lore and being fully capable to operate on Chamber by Chamber basis like in the lore, not a cadaverous mix of Sacrosanct punchbags, Vanguard DDs and Strike Chamber support heroes. I also have around 13000 points of SCE and that makes me feel fully entitled to wish for such things. 

Stormcast can deal with hordes easily! Take 3 or 4 balllista, ordinator, longstrikes. Deepstrike them in range and pull the trigger, no more hordes.  That lot plus 300pts for liberator battleline might be half your points and you can spend the other 1,000 on stardrake, dracoths, dracolines etc. 

 

[XReN]

6 minutes ago, Laststand said:

Stormcast can deal with hordes easily! Take 3 or 4 balllista, ordinator, longstrikes. Deepstrike them in range and pull the trigger, no more hordes.  That lot plus 300pts for liberator battleline might be half your points and you can spend the other 1,000 on stardrake, dracoths, dracolines etc. 

 

Why not decimators then? I've been almost wiping 40 skellies with 3 axes and 2 maces in one round of combat

[Naem]

Evocators! My Greenz-playing friend has serious PTSD from the guys because they annihilate his Goblins game after game after game. A Unit of 5 gets 10 50% mortal wounds every turn plus their 20ish regular attacks with 3/3...the battle shock then always gets the rest of the green guys

[kuroyume]

1 hour ago, Naem said:

Evocators! My Greenz-playing friend has serious PTSD from the guys because they annihilate his Goblins game after game after game. A Unit of 5 gets 10 50% mortal wounds every turn plus their 20ish regular attacks with 3/3...the battle shock then always gets the rest of the green guys

If your 5 Evocators are living for more than one turn your friend is terrible. Evocators melt super quick on the countercharge. Sure they are strong when they charge, but they hardly ever fight more than once unless taken in big numbers (10+)

Edited July 9, 2019 by kuroyume

[Naem]

Well yes that is true, but isn't it true for all units in AoS more or less? If you get charged by anything that has decent DPS you are mostly screwed (of course with some exceptions). Paladins wouldn't do much better, would they? 

[tripchimeras]

On 7/8/2019 at 7:40 AM, Eevika said:

I concider the army a horde army when it has like 70+ models. 

As others have said, this is the first mistake.  This is not a horde.  Wanting a 10-15 model army as the standard just tells me you are playing the wrong game, sorry.  That is skirmish game numbers, AoS is not (thankfully) a skirmish game.  There should be large armies out their, and standard troops should be common in fairly large numbers, its kinda part of what makes a massed battle game, a massed battle game.

Additionally, with the exception of DoK and plague monk spam (not even the best skaven build), the hordes are never the point.  Screening in AoS is extremely important.  Between deepstrike and double turn mechanics screens are a must have in this game.  Horde units make amazing screens.  That is why you are seeing them, though again I don't even really think there are that many horde armies.  Skaven are supposed to be a horde army, if they aren't bringing 100+ models to the table, the tome is probably designed wrong.  And even with that, Skaven's best builds use the hordes as little more then a delivery device to transport their monsters safely into combat, and screen their casters as they mortal your army into submission, they are not the point, they are the wrapping.  Gloomspite gitz are the same way, massed goblins is kinda the point of their lore, and they are not even near the top of the meta either, so I'm unclear where all these hordes are after that? 

Whats left at the top of the meta?  Slaanesh, FEC, Fyreslayers, Deepkin, legions of nagash.  Slaanesh, FEC, Fyreslayers, and Deepkin are not horde armies, FEC and Deepkin play strait up as elite armies practically, Slaanesh if they bring hordes they are mostly just being summoned (there best builds are not the daemonet mash at all from what I have seen, tons and tons of characters with screeners to wrap them up), fyreslayers have A horde unit and that is it.  Legions of Nagash, literally have legions in the title and again in fluff should be all about masses of skeletons and zombies being continuously ressed up, so again they SHOULD be a horde army.  So top of the meta of Slaanesh, FEC, Fyreslayers, Deepkin, LoN, DoK, and Skaven we have 3 horde armies and 3 elite armies and 1 army (fyreslayers) that kinda fits in the middle, and functions mostly as an elite army.  Of the horde armies 2 of the 3 functionally are SUPPOSED to be horde armies, only DoK is not functioning as intended, and we are talking about the single biggest problem book of over the past year and they got smacked by far the hardest of any of the top tier by the GHB and faqs.

This is what I think, 2 of the past 5 books to be released are horde narrative books, and very popular armies that have gone a LONG time since a real update, each being popular armies from the WHFB days when army numbers were much higher in general then AoS.  So a lot of people not only have owned them for a long time, but have horde armies from WHFB for them.  That is why you feel inundated with horde armies.  Additionally I think your fundamental definition of what constitutes a horde army is flawed, and even more so your expectations for what a massed battle fantasy game should be seems odd to me. 

[Eevika]

7 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

As others have said, this is the first mistake.  This is not a horde.  Wanting a 10-15 model army as the standard just tells me you are playing the wrong game, sorry.  That is skirmish game numbers, AoS is not (thankfully) a skirmish game.  There should be large armies out their, and standard troops should be common in fairly large numbers, its kinda part of what makes a massed battle game, a massed battle game.

Explain BcR