Calling All Women!

[Lior'Lec]

8 minutes ago, JPjr said:

Even something as simple as what would a matriarchal Dwarf society be like? 

 

     I’d love to see an Amazonian Dwarf faction. With decent practical armor somewhere in between Stormcast Armored and Witch Elf Naked. Fiercely territorial, male dwarves are present in their society but are considered inept so make up a smaller portion of their armies (and frequently kept in chains  both figuratively and literally). Just for the love of all things holy don’t try to sexualize them.

[tokek]

My daughter quite liked the various Aelf models and as I started reading through your initial post I was beginning to think "Wanderers would be perfect then" right up until you wrote pretty much the same. My daughter never liked the gameplay side so much and will probably use her minis in D&D but that is OK. In the same way that studies have shown that words implying competitive focus dissuade women from applying to jobs I actually think that GW maintaining a strong emphasis on and trying to foster strong local communities of more narrative play might be the most important aspect of appealing to women. A focus on competitive play can of course be a turn-off for either gender but is more likely to act that way for women (presuming the research is right, which it probably is).

I think there is a legitimate place for all sorts of different representations of male/female/um-something-else miniatures in the game. Daughters of Khaine, armoured female Stormcast and Wanderers all have an appeal and may appeal across genders. Choice is pretty much a good thing here.

[JackStreicher]

My Girlfriend fell in love with Lizardmen -> Seraphon due to „Dinosaurs riding Dinosaurs, how cool is that?“ and because she loves skinks.

Apart from that she started playing with my Sylvaneth and wants to buy Alarielle (cool looking, strong female character with a really awesome Ancient Greek look).

 

Concerning females and Gw:

There‘re a lot of old models that need a remake, those should (and hopefully will) include females (Blood Knights for example)

[ManlyMuppet88]

For me, GW is moving in the right direction with Sacrosanct. The women are part of an army, not a seperate sub-faction or unit, they have more than a single “token” model and they wear pretty much the same armour as the men. They could dial back the chest armour and get rid of the ridiculous “high-heel boots” but I generally like the range and what it represents for GW’s design ethic moving forward. Maybe.

For my wife, it’s not an issue unless you make it an issue. When we play Silver Tower, she uses the Warpriest because he comes with a Gryph hound and can heal the party. Gender and representation play no part in her decision making or her appreciation of the models or games.

GW’s always going to struggle with this, especially as their consumer base expands and diversifies but they do seem to making progress. You can’t please all of the people all of the time but I do think they’re getting better.

 

[Wraith01]

I don't know, I think it's pretty well split. We have plenty of female leaders and there's a few ladies in most armies. I don't see them ever splitting it evenly. That said, we also have room for adding more.

I was super pumped when they showed the first Female Liberator, she's the main reason I bought Warhammer Underworlds: Shadespire. I would love to add some women to my Tzeentch and Khorne armies (Haven't bought Valkia because I don't like finecast/resin).  and I'm glad my small set of Slaves to Darkness is getting more ladies to accompany The DarkOath WarQueen with a Warband for Nightvault.

[AGPO]

Well this may be lighting the fuse but we're missing the elephant in the room.

My wife and I share loads of 'nerdy' hobbies but Warhammer isn't one of them. The reason for that isn't to do with how representative the fluff or minis are (although seeing yourself in the game is undoubtedly important), but way more to do with the behaviour of the "That Guys" in many stores and clubs. Creepiness, mysogyny and general awful behaviour is  unfortunately disproportionately common in our hobby. It's the same with homophobic language too.

Unfortunately stores are often pretty poor at dealing with this kind of thing. I know people's income is on the line and nobody wants to drive away customers but, having run sports teams and other clubs in the past, not dealing with toxic individuals is what ultimately hurts your member/customer retention the most. This behaviour drives guys away too, but one thing we often forget is that the creepy behaviour we just find irritating can often feel threatening to women. It's not hyperbole to say many women don't feel comfortable or even safe going into some hobby stores because of the way certain men behave towards them.

Nobody is saying there shouldn't be a place for the awkward nerdy guy but basic civility (and basic personal hygiene) towards everyone regardless of gender, age, race etc. shouldn't be too much to ask.

[Overread]

One thing I forgot to say is that a lot of the early AoS lore books all feature one common theme - when human survivor groups were found by Stormcast, nearly all of them were found as ragged bands of people led by women, or at least where the story focuses on the women (a woman) in the group. As a result I've a strong feeling that when GW comes to address the human factions for the people of the Realms we should see a female influence in the models. This might mean an army which features a lot of women generals as opposed to rank and file; or even a survivors army that is closer to half and half. I'd not expect it to be like Daughters where there's a clear dominance of one gender over the other; nor like a standard "real" fantasy side with a heavier dominance of men. Instead I'd wager its a closer split due to the madness they've had to endure and thus pushing all to equality in the bid to just survive. 

 

[DINOSTAR]

I've introduced a few women to this hobby and they went Sylvaneth, Pestilens (plague monks), and Slannesh.  None care about the lore (nor do I for what's is worth), but I think there is a good range of armies to pick from for nearly all tastes.  I'm NOT a woman, but I like the lighthearted looks of Seraphon (a popular choice among women I've seen play at the warhammer store) and goblins/greenskins.  Even though Pestilens and Slannesh are probably some of the nastiest, more disgusting races in practice, rat dudes look kinda cute and slannesh look  graceful and ornate.  I can't stand the aesthetic of Khorne or DoK.  I don't think people have to pick armies that "represent" them in any way; I'm certainly nothing like a saurus warrior other than my gigantic muscles  

[Ollie Grimwood]

What makes a female model though?  Kharadon Overlords could surely be female under all that clobber and fans of Terry Pratchett will known the issues with Dwarfs on that front anyway.  It should have been the same with Stormcast and we only really know Drayds are female because of the lore (excepting Drycha in both her incarnations).   Orruks and Grots, they haven’t told us (40k they are genderless).  Seraphon don’t have genders given they are created in spawning pools. Not every species needs to be a mammal.  

If a finger is to be pointed as the AoS range (not WFB repurposed stuff) probably it’s the Khorne and Tzeentch stuff seeing as they actually have the closest thing to normal humans in them and they’re all blokes. 

Not that I think this is what is preventing some ladies joining in though, I think it’s proably down to a number of negative stereotypes (generally erroneous or exaggerated in my opinion, though some are certainly true) about wargamming and wargamers but I guess I should really leave that to them to tell us.  

[RuneBrush]

Just to nudge this back towards the original question.  It's not about the percentage of female models in the ranges - it's more that the ranges that appeal to blokes don't necessarily appeal to women. 

Now part of that may be/is because women aren't represented that well in miniature ranges, but equally it could be that heavy armoured dwarves/red fleshed daemons don't appeal.

[Kronos]

@AlphaKennyThing

In short no, I’d be miffed if I was a woman and found my gender was as poorly represented as it is. But it’s a hell of a lot more complex than that, and to be honest Gw have come leaps and bounds to where they were. Idoneth, Alarielle and her Sylvaneth, Wanderers, Dark Elves, Stormcast, a Chaos Warqueen and what look like more DarkPath soon. There is still a definite  imbalance, Chaos is practically all male, as are the Empire/free people, Duardin, Greenskins, Ogors( one of the females even dressed up as a man once)...these are but to name a few.

Issuses lie in existing fantasy archtypes, which tend to be Healer, naked evil, naked barbarian, assassin, naked assasin, and helpless naked, and for some reason very few warrior women and goddesses. I know we have in the last decade and a bit seen a change of this with Hordes, a few Gw and some of the smaller manufacturers, Warcraft, Diablo and other blizzard inventions have been better here or there, but When I played Diablo 3 with my fiance she did question the irregularities in armour fitting, size and a few other chosen differences. 

Its better, much better than where we were, elves leading  the way in this instance, though you may debate this may be with the rather fluid look of elves to begin with. Race is also another subject, as the biggest representation in AoS and is predecceor are/were white germanic with a few dotted takes on old world civilisation, but very very few. This isn’t isolated to gw, or wargaming, its a global phenomena were we are considering how we, as people perceive difference and how its represented, in terms of gender, culture, ethnicity, religion etc. 

There isn’t a one size fits perfect answer or soloution which would be doable or feasable, mostly from a production stand point, and inevitably someone will undoubtedley feel left out of the party. But it is undeniably better In my opinion to where we were 15 years ago and GW are making good progress on this. 

As a side note, has she considered Undead, Female vamp lords, skellies, Banshees and more Nighthaunt and even two female Mortarchs to boot?

 

 

[JackStreicher]

4 minutes ago, Kronos said:

@AlphaKennyThing

In short no, I’d be miffed if I was a woman and found my gender was as poorly represented as it is. But it’s a hell pf a lot more complex than that, and to be hobest Gw have come leaps and bounds to where they were. Idoneth, Alarielle and her Sylvaneth, Wanderers, Dark Elves, Stormcast, a Chaos Warqueen and what look like more DarkPath soon. There is still a definite  imbalance, Chaos is practically all male, as are the Empire/free people, Duardin, Greenskins, Ogors( one of the females even dressed up as a man once)...these are but to name a few.

Issuses lie in existing fantasy archtypes, which tend to be Healer, naked evil, naked barbarian, assassin, naked assasin, and helpless naked. I know we have in the last decade and a bit seen a change of this with Hordes, a few Gw and some of the smaller manufacturers, Warcraft, Duablo and other blizzard inventions have been better here or there, but When I pkYed Diablo 3 with my fiance she did wuestion at the irregularities in armour fitting, size and a few other chosen differences. 

Its better, much better than where we were, elves lead8ng the way in this instance, though you may debate this may be with the rather fluid look of elves to begin with. Race is also another subject, as the biggets repsentation in AoS and is predecceor are/were white germanic with a few dotted takes on old workd civilisation, but very very few. This isn’t isolated to gw, or wargaming, its a global phenomena were we are considering how we, ad people perceive difference and how its represented, in terms of gender, culture, ethnicity, religion etc. 

There isn’t a one size fits perfect answer or soloution which would be doable or feasable, mostly from a production stand point, and inevitably someone will undoubtedley feel left out of the party. But it is undeiably better In my opinion to where we were 15 years ago and GW are making good progress on this. 

As a side note, has she considered Undead, Female vamp lords, skellies, Banshees and more Nighthaunt and even two female Mortarchs to boot?

 

 

I agree with all but one point: race

race is defined by the way you paint your minis.

[Kronos]

9 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I agree with all but one point: race

race is defined by the way you paint your minis.

Fair point, my direction was more on background influence (viking chaos warriors, german/prussian styled empire, very greek elves, and south american Lizards, Undead Egyptians).

Come to think of it that was actually more directed at the old world warhammer, the new AoS is very very open and expansive in background, would be cool to see this in miniature form too with different sets of free peoples from different realms.

 

[Enoby]

2 hours ago, AGPO said:

but way more to do with the behaviour of the "That Guys" in many stores and clubs. Creepyness, mysogyny and general awful behaviour is really common is unfortunately disproportionately common in our hobby. It's the same with homophobic language too.

Yeah, this is a concern that l think has a lot of merit to it. As a woman, I've had more than my fair share of creepy comments from dudes who think that an AoS Facebook page is just Tinder wearing a Stormcast helmet. Don't get me wrong, 99.99% of fans are absolutely fine (and there's been no issue from this site), but it can only take one to spoil someone's experience. 

As for more female model representation, I know it was a lack of representation that put me off 40k when I first discovered it; partially it was because I was a lot younger and the only source of information I was getting was one guy saying the only female army was Sisters of Battle and they sucked compared to Space Marines, but when told about the armies it was difficult to find one I could relate to as most were hyper macho.

I think there's also the issue that when more female representation is mentioned it can bring out the worst in people. For example, not saying I'm in favour of female Space Marines (I don't really care either way), but the zeal that some people have against them when it's mentioned can be a bit off putting. 

I did get more interested in AoS partially because of stronger female representation (from characters like Neferata), but that wasn't the sole reason. At the moment I play Slaanesh, which has a rather mixed view from an outsider to the hobby, and while my experiences with other Slaanesh fans has been very positive, I can imagine some areas of the internet may be less welcoming. I'm glad that there are female Stormcast now, though, as they are the poster army that all newcomers will see, so the issue I had with 40k when I was younger hopefully won't be as commonplace.

To put is as concisely as I can, the more inclusive a hobby is to a woman, the more I would feel welcomed into it. However, perhaps to the shock of the internet, women aren't a hivemind and I'm sure many others believe differently  

[kenshin620]

39 minutes ago, Kronos said:

 

Come to think of it that was actually more directed at the old world warhammer, the new AoS is very very open and expansive in background, would be cool to see this in miniature form too with different sets of free peoples from different realms.

 

Just as long as there is proper research and respect to borrowing culture! Its easy to do that with something like vikings cause england is near to Scandinavia, but things like african and asian influences are harder to do without guidance. Plus it doesn't help GW that it did seem a tad.....racist when they did Orks vs Praetorian Imperial Guard in 40k...essentially copy pasting the Zulu Wars into 40k with the Zulus being the Orks. Granted that was years ago, and I still like the Praetorian Pith Helmet models, but I don't think something like that would fly today!

 

As an example CMON goofed up and in their Samurai inspired Rising Sun game, inserted a Mythical Monkey like creature....that has NOTHING to do with Japanese folklore because they were lazy and just used Wikipedia to populate their world.

And they just so happened to use a "mythical creature" that was the result of Wikipedia vandalism!

 

http://johnbrieger.com/blog/?p=321
 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Also I kind of want to show my own thoughts of the appeal/unappeal of warhammer to women using sweeping generalizations of pop culture...I just don't know how to say it without looking insensitive (I'm not sexist at all! In fact I hate all the sexism going around video games and etc)

I had this whole thing typed out but I'm refraining from posting it.

Basically it involves the "non sexual technically" sexual appeal of pop culture...if that makes any sense. Sorry if that sounds offensive to either men or women! And I know usually people hate being lumped in with "the majority"!

[EccentricCircle]

A slight tangent, but I kind of thought that the introduction of the Primaris Marines would have been a great way to deal with the "should there be female space marines" issue once and for all. They could have said, quite definitively and canonically; Space Marines have always been men up till now, but this new faction of Space Marines can include anyone.

Sadly I suspect that would have been too controversial a move with some elements of their fanbase.

I think its quite interesting that the sorts of aesthetics that appeal to men and women don't seem to be symmetrical. I know quite a few male gamers who like the chainmail bikini look of the Witch Elves. However, very few of the ladies I game with are fond of the similarly scantily clad Chaos Barbarians and Fyreslayers.

[Backbreaker]

So I asked my girlfriend about that ...

She likes :

The narative aspect of a game, story driven, probably more into Silver Tower than AoS.

Painting / Modelling is not a problem at all

Male/female factions. She doesn't think that a woman will prefer an army with mostly women, but with mixed gender (Sacrosaint, ...).

The idea of magic is cool for her. I think that with endless spell, it may be a good idea to play some magic focused missions.

She dislikes :

Too many rules. I agree that AoS is streamlined but it's still a wargame and warscrolls add complexity.

The fact that the game is only focused on battle in the mortal realms.

Too many models is something that can be scary (but I think it's for every beginner).

[Overread]

Some of the zeal comes from the fact that people have often been wargamers from a very young age. Many get into models and warhammer before or just after their teenage years. So you're going against people who have grown up with Space marines being what they are in the lore. To go in and make a massive fundamental change to them in the lore can make them feel like what they've enjoyed for years is being taken away from them.

 

To me the answer isn't to make female marines, or to make female orks orwhatever its to introduce other factions that better cater to different market segments. Introduce Sisters of Battle who are nearly identical to marines in most respects (they use bolters and rhinos and mostly their only difference is that they are not superhuman jacked up giants). Introduce Tyranids as a totally alien race; introduce Daughters of Khaine who are a blood cult; introduce Darkling covens who are led by women etc... Ergo expand the lore rather than move in to change its core. I think that is better for all parties; it means you're not changing the game, merely expanding upon it; plus it means any new faction can be built around catering to a market segment; or a theme or a style or ideal. Blood cults, slavers, heroic warriors; nobles, twisted monsters, demons, beasts, wildpeoples, elementals, machines, aliens, xenos, etc...

 

The only issue with building wider is if GW builds so wide they can't support it all, otherwise its a very sensible and viable move. 

[Overread]

1 minute ago, Backbreaker said:

 

The fact that the game is only focused on battle in the mortal realms.

I forget the name but another company has released the books for the Warhammer Fantasy RPG system and hopefully if that gains popularity and GW keeps pushing AoS we could see them restore the RPG system for Age of Sigmar. They might be holding off on that for a bit to really get more lore firmed up so that they can release map books and guides and monster collections etc.... 

[kenshin620]

20 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

. However, very few of the ladies I game with are fond of the similarly scantily clad Chaos Barbarians and Fyreslayers.

Ok thats what I was kind of hinting at with my last statement.

 

The Male Ideal fantasy for the Male Body is different than the Female Ideal fantasy for the Male Body.

*DISCLAIMER* I know not all women think like this!

But it seems that from pop culture examples the ideal male in fantasy/sci fi for women is something like Legolas. Less bulgy muscles, more "can be in a Fragrance commercial".

I mean look at marvel. Theres a reasons a lot of women (and men! to be fair) really like Loki.

 

 

Also to me, female space marines would be a TERRIBLE move. Not saying I would hate them myself, but that would cause so much schism and controversy.

They should have female models of already established area, like the Imperial Guard. Seriously would it kill them to have female Cadians? It is already well established that every man, woman, and child (no child soldiers please though, that'd be weird!) in Cadia must bear arms to fight chaos!

 

[JPjr]

18 minutes ago, Overread said:

I forget the name but another company has released the books for the Warhammer Fantasy RPG system and hopefully if that gains popularity and GW keeps pushing AoS we could see them restore the RPG system for Age of Sigmar.

http://cubicle7.co.uk/our-games/age-of-sigmar-roleplaying-game/

TBH much as my WFRP was my true  teenage nerd love, I hope they get the AOS RPG up and running soon and focus on that, rather than just catering to nostalgia. AOS style war games are fun but you only really get to truly flesh out a world when you're not just throwing battle behemoths around and actually digging into it in the way a proper RPG can.

I also hope though the setting is gone they do keep some of the flavour from the old world in that it's not about becoming god tier characters but just surviving in a batshit insane world/realm and if you're really, really lucky once you've wiped that sewer muck off at the end of a campaign your character has been promoted from Dung Collector to Rat Catcher.

[Black Blade]

My girlfriend actually got interested in the game because of the Daughters of Khaine, if you look at cons and the like where people cosplay it's easy to see that that style has a broad appeal as do those in heavy armor so I wouldn't want to lose either style because I like them both and it seems women do at a fair rate as well. A number of people have already cited the Tree people as being a draw, there is a savage elegance to them and my girlfriend has included some Wanderers allies in the form of Sisters of the Thorn and The flaming bow women ( i forget their name). I honestly think you just need to ask women, look at what draws them into any fiction in the first place. Harry Potter is interesting to many of my female friends and they are quite devoted to it. I think seeing models that they can project themselves onto is the first step, start peppering in females across all relevant ranges like they have done with the Darkoath, the Elves, etc. and put them in Duardin or other ranges that don't yet have that diversity. Which is why we need the Witch Elves, the Sisters of the Thorn, The Stormcast and anything between or beyond to fit different personalities, then it seems interpersonal drama seems to pull the women in the hobby i know that are here already just like in Harry Potter there is a connection to the setting... which if you think about it, the same reason most of us dudes got here in the first place. 

[TheMuphinMan]

Just putting this out there, nothing says blightkings can't be female and any secondary sex characteristics could easily just be overshadowed with all the bloat and swelling. It even says in the maggotkin book that blightkings could of been anything from a warrior to a cobbler before they embraced the grandfather's gifts. Papa Nurgle takes all.

 

Edit: Though blightkings are probably second to only fyreslayers and the darkoath chieften in amount of skin shown not counting daemons who are basically naked

[Enoby]

9 minutes ago, TheMuphinMan said:

Though blightkings are probably second to only fyreslayers and the darkoath chieften in amount of skin shown not counting daemons who are basically naked

Now that you mention it, I think daemonettes have the most clothing of any of the lesser daemons.

[Waiyuren]

8 hours ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

The idea is to get opinions on what would be great moves by GW to get more females playing...

...I want more people playing!

Well they've already made a few moves in the right direction by including more than just the "sexy, seductive, but ultimately murderous" stereotypical "powerful woman" fantasy trope; we always had wood-elves/wanderers (elegant & proud?), and sylvaneth (alien & vengeful?), and now we have some holy paladin style figures in sacrosanct (righteous and fierce?). 

If you diversify what you present as the representation of a "typical" woman in fantasy, you mirror the reality of "typical" women in every day life... Some women like sexy murder elves, some like proud hunters, some righteous warriors or vengeful tree-spirits, while others like different things entirely; my ex played greenskins and chaos warriors because being the villain appealed to her, while my daughter's armies are almost exclusively bird based (aetherwing-heavy stormcast, feathery tzeentch, and laser dinos).

Honestly, i think the models are the smallest problem to solve in terms of gender diversity in this hobby, but that's not what this thread is about so I'll leave it at that. ?

 

I totally agree with your wife on the rules of revealing, btw, but absolutely disagree on the whole "female" term... at least when hearing/seeing it used by a guy. It gives me mental images of the ferengi from star trek... ?