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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

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6 hours ago, Ggom said:

These new khainite shadowstalkers are a mixed bag I think. I love the variations with the witch aelf and Sister of Slaghter, as well as several of the male sculpts! I’m not so keen on the frowning dude with the wobbley cloak thing, or the faceless boss lady. Might pick them up, but will plan to swap her head out if I do...

I'm with you. I won't be investing in the whole warband, but the leader is a head swap away from being a new hag/dark elf sorceress.

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Hi everyone,

I've been for 2y in the hobby and now is my time to join the team and start a new DoK army!
Some questions still trouble me, so it would be great if you could help me out?

I've read the last third of the thread so far and checked several beginner guides and batraps on how to handle a (hopefully) successfull start with the sinister ladies. My main conclusions are: 

- Big blocks of witch elves/sisters of slaughter
- Morathi is quite good
- Fast glass cannon army,  with some deepstrinking units
- Cauldrons are our friends and a good choice to keep important buffers alive (slaughter qeen, hag queen)

Questions: 

- Am I wrong with my conlusions?
- Is it a good moment to start, or should I rather wait due to all that new stuff is coming out? (Morathi campaign book, Shadow & Pain box..)
- Is Morathi useable as a caster, or should I use my first turn (after casting Mindrazor) to immediately transform her into her "big" form?
- Are snake units just nice as MSU or would a pure snake army perform as well? I heard that the shooting version doesnt soak in buffs that well
- What about competitive play? Are DoK on a level with other mid-tier armies? And is Hag Narr the only temple for competitive play. Im aware, that the battletome is very 2.0 vanilla and some aspects depend on my local meta (like shooting, or new magic-heavy armies)
- Any hints on how to collect a 2k force without spending a trillion € 😀

Ok that was an avalanche of questions. Thank to anybody still trying to answer some of them!

Cheers!
Milano

 

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44 minutes ago, Milano said:

Hi everyone,

I've been for 2y in the hobby and now is my time to join the team and start a new DoK army!
Some questions still trouble me, so it would be great if you could help me out?

I've read the last third of the thread so far and checked several beginner guides and batraps on how to handle a (hopefully) successfull start with the sinister ladies. My main conclusions are: 

- Big blocks of witch elves/sisters of slaughter
- Morathi is quite good
- Fast glass cannon army,  with some deepstrinking units
- Cauldrons are our friends and a good choice to keep important buffers alive (slaughter qeen, hag queen)

Questions: 

- Am I wrong with my conlusions?
- Is it a good moment to start, or should I rather wait due to all that new stuff is coming out? (Morathi campaign book, Shadow & Pain box..)
- Is Morathi useable as a caster, or should I use my first turn (after casting Mindrazor) to immediately transform her into her "big" form?
- Are snake units just nice as MSU or would a pure snake army perform as well? I heard that the shooting version doesnt soak in buffs that well
- What about competitive play? Are DoK on a level with other mid-tier armies? And is Hag Narr the only temple for competitive play. Im aware, that the battletome is very 2.0 vanilla and some aspects depend on my local meta (like shooting, or new magic-heavy armies)
- Any hints on how to collect a 2k force without spending a trillion € 😀

Ok that was an avalanche of questions. Thank to anybody still trying to answer some of them!

Cheers!
Milano

 

Welcome. Your conclusions are pretty much right on, with the exception that while Daughters are advertised as a glass cannon, theyre actually one of the most resilient armies in the game, provided you buff properly.

I want to preface the following with everything I'm about to say is subject to change with the upcoming morathi book and new melusai leader (and im sincerely hoping it does change a bit). It may be good to wait a couple weeks to see what this book will bring us. With that said, I dont think so much will change that observations from the past couple years wont hold relevance.

Morathi is good but she has a learning curve associated with using her since she is 1/4 of your army that isnt pushing the offensive power that big witch/sisters of slaughter blocks do. Theres also nuance to using her. For example, her transform happens at the beginning of the hero phase, so you can't cast with her and then turn. Sometimes you'll want to turn her right away and other times you'll want to keep her small for a turn or two for the bonus casting. It all depends on the specific matchup and gametype.

Daughters still do fine in competitive play. Its unfortunately still pretty monorail, and id argue against anything other than hagg nar if you're going for a list you can take to an event in which you dont know what your opponents will bring. Some people are trying khailebron lists to counteract the shooting. In my opinion, its a case of "do you want something that is always beneficial (5+ fanatical faith and reroll all hits turn 3 with hagg nar), or something that is sometimes beneficial (-1 to hit from shooting in khailebron)". 

Melee snakes can be used in larger blocks effectively too. Ive had a lot of success with a unit of 20. Our army doesn't put out many mortals, so this is your one reliable source of them. Also a good source for massed rend 2 if you need it with mindrazor. 

We were a very strong army choice for a few years due to the meta playstyle revolving around melee damage dealers. Our army outperformed many at this. But more playstyles are becoming relevant, and really fyreslayers took everything took everything we are good at and boosted it up. So we are still very strong, but not the dominant force of even a year ago.

As for money saving, that's thr hardest part. The old allies box and Christmas battleforce box are no longer sold. They were great money savers, because those witches at 60 bucks for 10 models hurt. This new box may be a good way to build a snake army if you can part out extras of the hero and any khinerai you won't be using, but that only works if an all snake army becomes relevant. Other than that, buying from retailers that offer 20% off is your best bet, but you're still gonna be spending more on this army than most others.

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12 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Warcry Catacombs will cost 160€

I am just leaving this here. :)

What the actual f@@k. Thats just stupid pricing.

EDIT - ok i see it comes with quite a bit of terrain and 2 rulebooks, so thats not an outrageous amount from that perspective. I do think they overvalue their rulebooks though, those get invalidated quickly. Honestly the only thing I like about GW is the quality of their plastic. The rest is overpriced in my mind.

@Milano if you like snakes the Start Collecting seems like good savings, relatively speaking. You will want the Cauldron anyway, so you are basically getting half off the Melusai. Also factor in the FLGS discount and its pretty dollars to points efficient compared to trying to collect a block of witch aelves 😆

Theres basically no reason to buy a Cauldron of Blood kit by itself if you are also going Melusai.


Personally I love the witch elf sculpts so I’m committed to getting at least a small block of them done.

Edited by Ggom
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21 hours ago, Milano said:

Hi everyone,

I've been for 2y in the hobby and now is my time to join the team and start a new DoK army!
Some questions still trouble me, so it would be great if you could help me out?

I've read the last third of the thread so far and checked several beginner guides and batraps on how to handle a (hopefully) successfull start with the sinister ladies. My main conclusions are: 

- Big blocks of witch elves/sisters of slaughter
- Morathi is quite good
- Fast glass cannon army,  with some deepstrinking units
- Cauldrons are our friends and a good choice to keep important buffers alive (slaughter qeen, hag queen)

Questions: 

- Am I wrong with my conlusions?
- Is it a good moment to start, or should I rather wait due to all that new stuff is coming out? (Morathi campaign book, Shadow & Pain box..)
- Is Morathi useable as a caster, or should I use my first turn (after casting Mindrazor) to immediately transform her into her "big" form?
- Are snake units just nice as MSU or would a pure snake army perform as well? I heard that the shooting version doesnt soak in buffs that well
- What about competitive play? Are DoK on a level with other mid-tier armies? And is Hag Narr the only temple for competitive play. Im aware, that the battletome is very 2.0 vanilla and some aspects depend on my local meta (like shooting, or new magic-heavy armies)
- Any hints on how to collect a 2k force without spending a trillion € 😀

Ok that was an avalanche of questions. Thank to anybody still trying to answer some of them!

Cheers!
Milano

 

I would like to add that money saving of GW Products is part of the fun for me. You can try to find second-hand models and buy them for a much cheaoper price.

If you like Sisters of Slaughter and converting I really recommend The (40k) Drukhari Wyches.852960.jpg.1782498ea0c4d546c6b7c8763b61118a.jpg

I also changed their Hands for the whips and Shield or daggers. This picture is just one part of the inspiration. Mine look different. 

You need a bit of green stuff for the necks though.

I believe it is boring to have 30 witch elves and 30 sisters of slaugher on the field and they have the same dresses. Those Wyches also have a gladiator style to them. The money saving comes from the spare parts you get in a box of witch elves and the much cheaper Wyches. 
 

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1 hour ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

I like it. What does everyone else think?

5HOP3wKfOdqvEJPq.jpg

Itll purely depend on points for me. Heartrenders and allied shadow warriors do similar a similar job to this lot. These shadowstalkers can do it for multiple turns, but I dont see these being run anyway other than as a min unit, which won't last against any enemy attention. They don't have the immediate 6 inch move on a 4+ like the heartrenders to help outnumber on an objective the turn they come down, nor the immediate chip damage the heartrenders and shadow warriors offer when they arrive. Cool models though, so that may be justification enough for them to see some play if they aren't a bargain for points.

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I can see a unit being valuable depending on cost, being able to jump every turn is useful for keeping your opponent pinned to their objectives even in later rounds after your Khinerai or Shadow Warriors have dropped.  Plus unlike Shadow Warriors they will take DoK buffs, which isn't saying too much given their stats aren't all that formidable,  but it's not nothing.

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These fellows are brilliant if they end up being 70 points like all of the other Warcry warbands. I'd even consider them up to 100 points.

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I like them. Being able to teleport every turn (not having to use Khelibron) is huge for capping objs or even  jumping in the way of of a bad charge. They have a lot of potential and they get the DOK buffs also when in a DOK army. Yeah they dont have the raw damage of witch aelves but being able to teleport behind a small unit capping an obj, then getting to charge in with 10 bodies with more attacks than Khinari throw out is pretty good 

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These guys are an amazing screening unit, easily buffable to 4+/5+ at -1 to hit, and because they teleport they don't get in the way if you go first or the enemy doesn't charge. If you play a snake army this unit is going to be 1+.

17 hours ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

I like it. What does everyone else think?

5HOP3wKfOdqvEJPq.jpg

 

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10 hours ago, Chumphammer said:

I like them. Being able to teleport every turn (not having to use Khelibron) is huge for capping objs or even  jumping in the way of of a bad charge. They have a lot of potential and they get the DOK buffs also when in a DOK army. Yeah they dont have the raw damage of witch aelves but being able to teleport behind a small unit capping an obj, then getting to charge in with 10 bodies with more attacks than Khinari throw out is pretty good 

9 bodies in the box, I think, but your point stands.

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The sprue photos are up on the New Zealand website

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/Warcry-Catacombs-EN-2020

 

Interestingly it appears that the DoK sprue has more than enough spears and perhaps blades for a full team; suggesting that there's some optional parts in the set! 

 

Edit - further looking and I think the extra spears are for the slaughtershade variation and at least one of the shadowblades. It also appears that the warlocks have two different repeaters and spell casting hands so they can swap bodies. 

Also the card confirms that two of the group are warlocks (males)

60010299025_EngWCCatacombsMultiple02.jpg

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All of the Warcry teams have a few optional bits/alternate model  builds I believe, sometimes just so that you can vary the look of your fighters if you get two kits, sometimes to represent a different weapon load-out for a fighter, and you normally at least get a few spare throwing weapons to stick on model's belts if you want.

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11 minutes ago, Lord of the Isle said:

So all D o K males that we know about are still slaves or warlocks

Interestingly the Battletome never mentions slaves within the DoK at all. 

Males are kept restricted and hobbled within society, both socially and by Morathi's influence weakening the typical male physical form. This suggests DoK breed fairly true within their own kind or that its likely some form of religious rite that all women undertake results in some influence to them which causes them to birth weaker males. 

But you don't get the impression that they are slaved, just second class citizens. It's almost a reversal of gender roles from the Victorian style era in the UK. Males likely can only hold certain jobs to a certain level, though I'd expect there are areas that they are allowed to excel at. In truth we don't really have a lot of fixed lore on the subject and even within the limited BL books we have little that talks about the actual cities of the DoK. Instead they tend to focus on covens and war which focuses on the women more so. It will be very interesting to read the new short stories coming out and see what they establish. So far we've Malaneth in the Gotrek stories who is cruel, but not mindlessly bloodthirsty (I mean except when it comes to potentially killing Gotrek so she hasn't got to run around after him...); we've got stories in the Heart of Winter which shows more of the fighting pit side of things, though that coven was also within a pirate stronghold so that might well have had influence on how it behaved. Then we've at least one story in Inferno which shows the DoK as a more mysterious force who are almost mindlessly enraged at fighting Chaos - though it also reminds us of how DoK will demand blood tithes from those they aid. So like the Ossiarchs they can be a cruel ally to take since the price might be paid in hearts and blood rather than gold. Though its not as strict an element with the DoK as it is with the Ossiarchs. 

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